Christian Terrorists Kill American Civilians and Shoot Police

[Rotobeast]

(12-02-2015, 05:39 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I don't believe any hate group could actually be based on Christian principles, myself. But then we will get into the script I mentioned before that is being played out here, and is played out time and time again whenever any act of violence is carried out with religious motivation.

X2

[GMDino]

(12-02-2015, 05:39 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I don't believe any hate group could actually be based on Christian principles, myself. But then we will get into the script I mentioned before that is being played out here, and is played out time and time again whenever any act of violence is carried out with religious motivation.

Would you say that any group that cites the Christian Bible to back its behavior considers itself Christian?  And perhaps, since they have scripture to support them, there are at least as Christian as any other?

I don't think ANYONE who kills another person (excl. self defense / accident) is a religious person in the sense that I believe religion should make you love and take care of each other vs kill them because they disagree with you or your point of view.  Whether that be religious or political.  And that goes for groups like the KKK, Army of God & ISIS.  They are simply people so wrapped up in their own hate / views they found something to try and pull other in.

But they can still CLAIM to be Christian (or whatever religion) and as such would be labeled that way.

The Son of Sam wasn't labeled a "Jewish Killer".  But he was Jewish (and then converted).

Ted Bundy said he was Methodist.  No one said all of them were serial killers.

But also, neither one of those claimed to kill in their god's name or to promote what they though was some kind of abomination in their religious views.

[Vas Deferens]

(12-02-2015, 05:52 PM)GMDino Wrote: Would you say that any group that cites the Christian Bible to back its behavior considers itself Christian?  And perhaps, since they have scripture to support them, there are at least as Christian as any other?

I don't think ANYONE who kills another person (excl. self defense / accident) is a religious person in the sense that I believe religion should make you love and take care of each other vs kill them because they disagree with you or your point of view.  Whether that be religious or political.  And that goes for groups like the KKK, Army of God & ISIS.  They are simply people so wrapped up in their own hate / views they found something to try and pull other in.

But they can still CLAIM to be Christian (or whatever religion) and as such would be labeled that way.

The Son of Sam wasn't labeled a "Jewish Killer".  But he was Jewish (and then converted).

Ted Bundy said he was Methodist.  No one said all of them were serial killers.

But also, neither one of those claimed to kill in their god's name or to promote what they though was some kind of abomination in their religious views.

DING DING DING DING.  And we have a winner.

Dude did this because his interpretation of christianity told him scripture trumps individual volition.

[*bfine32*]

(12-02-2015, 05:39 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I don't believe any hate group could actually be based on Christian principles, myself. But then we will get into the script I mentioned before that is being played out here, and is played out time and time again whenever any act of violence is carried out with religious motivation.

AKA rhetoric.

[Belsnickel]

(12-02-2015, 06:17 PM)bfine32 Wrote: AKA rhetoric.

The script I mentioned? In itself it is not rhetoric as it is not intended to persuade, my use of it was rhetorical and the things people say while acting out the script are rhetorical, but so many things are in this. Your arguments that AoG and other organizations like it are not Christian is rhetoric.

[StLucieBengal]

(12-02-2015, 03:37 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I think I brought this up before and I'm not sure if it was addressed or if it's simply incorrect BUT did this guy cite the "baby parts" video/belief as a motivating factor?  Wasn't that repeated by at least one Republican presidential candidate?  Is this guy a Republican Terrorist if he listens to their misleading rhetoric and then takes extreme action?

Should people really be repeating incorrect and inflammatory things as if they were truth, particularly on one of the world's biggest stages?  Is it acceptable to have people of power and with an audience repeat these things and then say "Hey, I didn't MAKE anyone do anything!"

Well it's a crude way of putting it but they are selling baby parts. When you are changing an abortion process to save particular parts then you are selling baby parts. While accepting a fee to harvest these parts .

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Son of Sam could be considered a "Religious Terrorist" since he was taking orders from a demon in the form of a dog. It's a leap of course but a connection can be made.
Or he was just another whack job with a gun.

Singular people who commit these mass murders are whack jobs, there is something mentally wrong with them. It is the case in every single mass murderer who perform their acts by themselves.

Whack jobs...all of them. There is something mentally wrong with them. They are not terrorists, they are whack jobs.

[Belsnickel]

(12-02-2015, 05:52 PM)GMDino Wrote: Would you say that any group that cites the Christian Bible to back its behavior considers itself Christian?  And perhaps, since they have scripture to support them, there are at least as Christian as any other?

I don't think ANYONE who kills another person (excl. self defense / accident) is a religious person in the sense that I believe religion should make you love and take care of each other vs kill them because they disagree with you or your point of view.  Whether that be religious or political.  And that goes for groups like the KKK, Army of God & ISIS.  They are simply people so wrapped up in their own hate / views they found something to try and pull other in.

But they can still CLAIM to be Christian (or whatever religion) and as such would be labeled that way.

This is what the "reasonable person" test would show as well, from the way I understand it. They present themselves as Christians, use scripture to back their claims and justify their actions. It's an objective approach to the evidence before you. Subjectively, I can say I do not believe their actions are based on Christian values, but that's not objective reasonableness.

[StLucieBengal]

The pro life movement has been responsible for 8 murders since 1977. Or 6% of the lives taken a couple of weeks ago by Islamic fundamentalists.

I understand why you guys want to post white christian religious killers. It makes you feel good and like you are fighting the evil Lucie. But in terms of volume .... Pro life doesn't stack up to Islamic.

Link to the murder stats above: http://www.vox.com/2015/11/30/9816870/planned-parenthood-violence-controversy

[StLucieBengal]

(12-02-2015, 07:42 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Son of Sam could be considered a "Religious Terrorist" since he was taking orders from a demon in the form of a dog. It's a leap of course but a connection can be made.
Or he was just another whack job with a gun.

Singular people who commit these mass murders are whack jobs, there is something mentally wrong with them. It is the case in every single mass murderer who perform their acts by themselves.

Whack jobs...all of them. There is something mentally wrong with them. They are not terrorists, they are whack jobs.

Hey don't take away their only way to tell us that Islamic killing is ok.

[Belsnickel]

(12-02-2015, 07:42 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Son of Sam could be considered a "Religious Terrorist" since he was taking orders from a demon in the form of a dog. It's a leap of course but a connection can be made.
Or he was just another whack job with a gun.

Singular people who commit these mass murders are whack jobs, there is something mentally wrong with them. It is the case in every single mass murderer who perform their acts by themselves.

Whack jobs...all of them. There is something mentally wrong with them. They are not terrorists, they are whack jobs.

Well, by definition some of them are terrorists. That doesn't mean that aren't whack jobs as well. I consider anyone that feels violence is the answer when confronting people that believe differently than you do to be whack jobs, but that doesn't mean they aren't also terrorists.

[*Nately120*]

(12-02-2015, 07:34 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Well it's a crude way of putting it but they are selling baby parts.   When you are changing an abortion process to save particular parts then you are selling baby parts.   While accepting a fee to harvest these parts .

So do you think the guy was acting off of actual facts, or media-hyped hyperbole?

[GMDino]

(12-02-2015, 07:34 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Well it's a crude way of putting it but they are selling baby parts.   When you are changing an abortion process to save particular parts then you are selling baby parts.   While accepting a fee to harvest these parts .

You can keep lying but you will still be liar on top of being wrong.

Not that it will change anyone's opinion of what you post I guess.

[*PhilHos*]

(12-02-2015, 09:34 PM)Nately120 Wrote: So do you think the guy was acting off of actual facts, or media-hyped hyperbole?

Does it matter? If someone thinks killing other human beings is a viable political strategy and/or solution to social injustice, facts nor hyperbole matter. For example, someone from the Black Lives Matter movement killing a police officer because other police officers have killed innocent people.

[*Nately120*]

(12-03-2015, 01:38 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Does it matter? If someone thinks killing other human beings is a viable political strategy and/or solution to social injustice, facts nor hyperbole matter. For example, someone from the Black Lives Matter movement killing a police officer because other police officers have killed innocent people.

You know what, I think it does matter.  I think it matters when people who have the national spotlight use it to spread lies to further their agenda.  Jenny McCarthy is convincing morons to expose everyone's kids to completely preventable illness and Carly Fiorina used a national debate to spread incorrect and inflammatory bs about Planned Parenthood chopping up babies for fun and profit.

People want to throw their hands and act like we haven't created, and continue to feed this "get 'em angry and pray for the victims when they listen to your nonsense" culture.  I'm sick of people who brag about how powerful and influential they are backpedaling from the scene of the crime when some nut takes their "go get those bastards" hate speech to heart.

Sarah Palin and Bill O'Rilley are suuuper popular, and they'll tell you that, but when someone takes their "target the enemy" to heart they are the first to say "Woah now, I can't make anyone do anything!" "XYZ is super evil and scary and needs to be stopped! By the way, have I mentioned how awesome assault rifles are, lately? Yea, everyone who doesn't hate America should have lots of assault rifles...just saying!"

Zounds of studies say vaccines don't cause autism and DO prevent rotten diseases?  Tough luck for your kids, because some a shrill lefty who boinks the Riddler is going to convince people to subject kids to the plague, but hey, don't blame her!

I don't get it.  If I go to the police station and say "PhilOS is a drug lord" and they search your house and find nothing, I might be in trouble.  If I tell the local newspaper that you are a child molester I'm going to get sued, but if I go on national TV and have a fanbase of zillions and I tell people that we need to stop (insert something here untrue that I have made out to be an assault on life, liberty, and America) and someone goes out and does it I get to say "Woah, I didn't make anyone do anything!"

The people with the most power are the ones with the least responsibility.  It's like if a billion people hear you lie you are absolved of blame.  Well, that's just my take.

[*PhilHos*]

(12-03-2015, 03:08 PM)Nately120 Wrote: You know what, I think it does matter.  I think it matters when people who have the national spotlight use it to spread lies to further their agenda.  Jenny McCarthy is convincing morons to expose everyone's kids to completely preventable illness and Carly Fiorina used a national debate to spread incorrect and inflammatory bs about Planned Parenthood chopping up babies for fun and profit.

People want to throw their hands and act like we haven't created, and continue to feed this "get 'em angry and pray for the victims when they listen to your nonsense" culture.  I'm sick of people who brag about how powerful and influential they are backpedaling from the scene of the crime when some nut takes their "go get those bastards" hate speech to heart.

Sarah Palin and Bill O'Rilley are suuuper popular, and they'll tell you that, but when someone takes their "target the enemy" to heart they are the first to say "Woah now, I can't make anyone do anything!"  "XYZ is super evil and scary and needs to be stopped!  By the way, have I mentioned how awesome assault rifles are, lately?  Yea, everyone who doesn't hate America should have lots of assault rifles...just saying!"

Zounds of studies say vaccines don't cause autism and DO prevent rotten diseases?  Tough luck for your kids, because some a shrill lefty who boinks the Riddler is going to convince people to subject kids to the plague, but hey, don't blame her!

I don't get it.  If I go to the police station and say "PhilOS is a drug lord" and they search your house and find nothing, I might be in trouble.  If I tell the local newspaper that you are a child molester I'm going to get sued, but if I go on national TV and have a fanbase of zillions and I tell people that we need to stop (insert something here untrue that I have made out to be an assault on life, liberty, and America) and someone goes out and does it I get to say "Woah, I didn't make anyone do anything!"

The people with the most power are the ones with the least responsibility.  It's like if a billion people hear you lie you are absolved of blame.  Well, that's just my take.

It's one thing if someone says "Someone should put an end to all PLanned Parenthoods" and then someone goes out and shoots up a PP clinic. It's another thing if someone says, "Planned Parenthood eats babies" and then someone goes out and shoots up a PP clinic. IN the former, you can argue that they were encouraging people to attack PP. In the other, they lied, but that doesn't make them culpable.

While I think we can all agree that most of us don't like the spread of misinformation, it is still incumbent on the LISTENER to make any and ALL of their decisions possessing ALL the facts. That's not to say that the spreaders of misinformation should get away with it, but the responsibility of my actions still are my own.

I personally am tired of the responsibility of people's actions falling everywhere but on them (and I'm not saying that's what you're claiming). I think we need to look at the totality of what happened in an effort to prevent tragic events from re-occurring, but not for scapegoating nor shirking the responsibilities of those who commit crimes.

But, at the end of the day, if you're willing to take the lives of people who are not actively endangering your life or your family's lives, you will do so even if what you're being told is 100% the truth.

[*Nately120*]

(12-03-2015, 04:33 PM)PhilHos Wrote: But, at the end of the day, if you're willing to take the lives of people who are not actively endangering your life or your family's lives, you will do so even if what you're being told is 100% the truth.

I'm not sure if this is true.  People look to "authority" to help them make decisions on what is right and wrong and what needs to be done.  I suppose we could argue that millions of people could have marched on Washington had MLK just decided to never become a public figure.  Maybe Osama Bin Laden really wasn't all that integral to terrorist attacks.  Maybe the anti-vaccer movement gets going even if i charismatic, famous blonde doesn't go on TV and spread bs stats.    

The fact that people go on TV and lie about things that cause only a super small faction of their audience to get violent just isn't enough anymore.  Again, I'm cynical but given how stupid the average American is and how easy it is to get guns I almost feel like people should know better than to get them all riled up and act surprised again and again when bad things happen.