Christian Westerman?

[SunsetBengal]

(02-12-2017, 12:28 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Please understand that I wasn't calling YOU dumb. I was saying that to look at where a player was drafted in a vacuum as it relates to what type of prospect he is or isn't is dumb. The draft doesn't happen in that way. Guys rise and fall for good or bad reasons and teams draft guys in different spots for different reasons. I look at those draft slot "value" assignments in the sense of what someone's talent/potential is vs where they are actually drafted. There were a lot of D-linemen and O-linemen last draft with 1st, 2nd, & 3rd round grades. So many in fact, that there was no way they were all going to go in those exact rounds due to the limited number of picks That doesn't mean that if a 2nd round guy is pushed down into the 3rd round that he doesn't have 2nd round potential or characteristics. It just means that other variables or things happened throughout the draft that just had the player getting looked over for other guys/positions.

Here is Westerman's NFL Draft profile. I like these a lot and find them to be really consistent and fair: http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/profiles/christian-westerman?id=2555131
The draft round projection is just based on potential talent. There are more guys with grades for the 2nd/3rd round than there are picks. That finite number of picks means that some guys are getting pushed down a round or two due to volume NOT that they don't have ability.

Another great recent example of this was Marvin Jones. Teams made runs on receivers and he was one of the ones passed over for whatever reasons. He was graded as a 2nd/3rd round talent, but went in the 5th. http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/marvin-jones?id=2532884 The talent was clearly there, but the picks didn't fall for him to go that high.

Here's a list in order of prospect grade of O-linemen from last years draft: http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/tracker#dt-tabs:dt-by-position/dt-by-position-input:ol
See where Westermen is ranked (11th) with a grade of 5.8? See where the other OGs went with the same or lower grade? They went higher. That means that, according to grade, the Bengals got a HUGE value in terms of draft position and potential. Where he actually went doesn't mean he loses talent or potential.

Thanks for posting the link to his draft profile.  After reading that, it is evident to me, as to why the coaches would choose to keep him on the shelf for the year.  In the section on his weaknesses, it pretty much says that he's going to struggle with NFL DTs.  But, he's a heck of a technician, and has great footwork.  In other words, he needs developmental time.  He's pretty much the opposite of Zeitler, who is more of a powerful drive blocker.

[BoomerFan]

I think he could be OK, but we don't know for certain. I'll agree that we should have enough to keep Whit AND Zeitler. And if you cut Adam Jones and Michael Johnson, you can keep Dre Kirkpatrick too. And those are moves that I would make. But yeah I don't think the ownership is gonna do that so...I guess we hope Westerman is good and they fix the rest of the line somehow.

[Jpoore]

(02-12-2017, 01:00 PM)BoomerFan Wrote: I think he could be OK, but we don't know for certain. I'll agree that we should have enough to keep Whit AND Zeitler.  And if you cut Adam Jones and Michael Johnson, you can keep Dre Kirkpatrick too. And those are moves that I would make. But yeah I don't think the ownership is gonna do that so...I guess we hope Westerman is good and they fix the rest of the line somehow.

even if we don't cut anyone we still have the room to sign all 3

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

I really liked the pick. He is really good in pass protection from his college film and is very strong.

I am a broken record though. Doesn't matter with our O-line coach.

I think Westerman could be very good if we could coach up his run blocking.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-12-2017, 03:27 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I really liked the pick. He is really good in pass protection from his college film and is very strong.

I am a broken record though. Doesn't matter with our O-line coach.

I think Westerman could be very good if we could coach up his run blocking.

I'm sure that he can develop into a trusty backup, or eventual starter.  I really kind of wish that his strengths/weaknesses were the opposite of what they are.  The things that he is good at; footwork, hand placement, technical aspects of the zone blocking scheme, etc.  Those are all completely teachable traits.  But, the ability to stand the bigger man up in the hole, aggressively drive block, etc., those are more naturally ingrained, and thus harder to "teach".

[BengalChris]

(02-12-2017, 12:28 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Please understand that I wasn't calling YOU dumb. I was saying that to look at where a player was drafted in a vacuum as it relates to what type of prospect he is or isn't is dumb. The draft doesn't happen in that way. Guys rise and fall for good or bad reasons and teams draft guys in different spots for different reasons. I look at those draft slot "value" assignments in the sense of what someone's talent/potential is vs where they are actually drafted. There were a lot of D-linemen and O-linemen last draft with 1st, 2nd, & 3rd round grades. So many in fact, that there was no way they were all going to go in those exact rounds due to the limited number of picks That doesn't mean that if a 2nd round guy is pushed down into the 3rd round that he doesn't have 2nd round potential or characteristics. It just means that other variables or things happened throughout the draft that just had the player getting looked over for other guys/positions.

Here is Westerman's NFL Draft profile. I like these a lot and find them to be really consistent and fair: http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/profiles/christian-westerman?id=2555131
The draft round projection is just based on potential talent. There are more guys with grades for the 2nd/3rd round than there are picks. That finite number of picks means that some guys are getting pushed down a round or two due to volume NOT that they don't have ability.

Another great recent example of this was Marvin Jones. Teams made runs on receivers and he was one of the ones passed over for whatever reasons. He was graded as a 2nd/3rd round talent, but went in the 5th. http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/marvin-jones?id=2532884 The talent was clearly there, but the picks didn't fall for him to go that high.

Here's a list in order of prospect grade of O-linemen from last years draft: http://www.nfl.com/draft/2016/tracker#dt-tabs:dt-by-position/dt-by-position-input:ol
See where Westermen is ranked (11th) with a grade of 5.8? See where the other OGs went with the same or lower grade? They went higher. That means that, according to grade, the Bengals got a HUGE value in terms of draft position and potential. Where he actually went doesn't mean he loses talent or potential.

I can see that. I don't think we, as fans, have any idea of Westerman's skills for the NFL. If he plays well then he was a good find in the 5th round. If he's one of those guys who was overrated in the draft (and there are many each year) then we'll just have to see. Could turn out to be very nice.

On the other hand, given how Bodine and Ogbuehi have turned out I'm not so sure the coaches have any idea how an OLman is going to turn out.

Bodine is heading into the final year of his rookie deal and we're still hoping he'll turn into a decent center.

[Okeana]

the good thing is if zeitler leaves which he will guys like this will get a much better chance on competing for a starting job.  I think he needed to develop a little more muscle and weight.  maybe last season he got the opportunity to learn and build up.  I would much rather see Cedric O be moved to right guard and westerman backup guard and compete for starting center.  Maybe this is something the coaches see as well which is why they aren't willing to pay Zeitler those huge dollars.





As you can see Most of his snaps were taken as a guard.  We could turn an epic fail into a value pick.

[*ochocincos*]

I didn't realize Westerman had the most reps at the 2016 Combine for offensive linemen with 34.
The Bengals also took Bodine in 2014, and he had the most reps that year for offensive linemen with 42.
I have to wonder if Ereck Flowers would have been the Bengals selection in 2015 had he been available in the first round when the Bengals selected. Flowers won the bench that year for OL with 37 reps, had prototypical size and skill set for RT, and the Bengals were already planning to find an heir at that spot for Andre Smith.

I'm going to keep an eye out this time around for which OL gets the most this year. He could become an instant target for the Bengals.

[*ochocincos*]

(02-12-2017, 08:20 PM)Okeana Wrote: the good thing is if zeitler leaves which he will guys like this will get a much better chance on competing for a starting job.  I think he needed to develop a little more muscle and weight.  maybe last season he got the opportunity to learn and build up.  I would much rather see Cedric O be moved to right guard and westerman backup guard and compete for starting center.  Maybe this is something the coaches see as well which is why they aren't willing to pay Zeitler those huge dollars.





As you can see Most of his snaps were taken as a guard.  We could turn an epic fail into a value pick.

RG might be the best spot for Ogbuehi, but how can the 21st overall pick be considered a value pick? Most top guards are selected in the late first round.
To me, Ogbuehi is only a "value pick" if he were to become an elite franchise LT.

[Bengal Dude]

I know some people are in here talking about Westerman being a 2nd-3rd round prospect. The Bengals admitted that they had him rated as a mid-4th round player. So take that for what it's worth.


Am I concerned about him taking over for Zeitler? Absolutely. He's a 5th round guy who didn't play a single snap and when Boling was injured, he didn't get a sniff at all when we tried to figure out the OL. We called up Trey Hopkins from the PS for week 17 and he saw more game time than Westerman.

[Hammerstripes]

(02-13-2017, 12:48 PM)ochocincos Wrote: RG might be the best spot for Ogbuehi, but how can the 21st overall pick be considered a value pick? Most top guards are selected in the late first round.
To me, Ogbuehi is only a "value pick" if he were to become an elite franchise LT.

Considering how many times I saw Ced get bullrushed back into the QB, I don't really think RG is a good fit for him at all.

[*ochocincos*]

(02-13-2017, 05:24 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Considering how many times I saw Ced get bullrushed back into the QB, I don't really think RG is a good fit for him at all.

No OL spot will be a good fit for him if he can't learn to anchor. But from what we saw so far, he's not a good OT, so perhaps OG could be better.

[Hammerstripes]

(02-13-2017, 05:28 PM)ochocincos Wrote: No OL spot will be a good fit for him if he can't learn to anchor. But from what we saw so far, he's not a good OT, so perhaps OG could be better.

I get that, but when I look at what was one of his major issues, along with terrible run blocking, OG seems like a worse fit.

[*ochocincos*]

(02-13-2017, 05:30 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: I get that, but when I look at what was one of his major issues, along with terrible run blocking, OG seems like a worse fit.

I understand that. I was simply responding to Okeana who said RG could be the best fit because that's where he was most successful in college. But as you point out, the traits that make most top-notch RGs successful are things that Ogbuehi lacks. He really is more suited for the left side (whether that's LT or LG) but still has plenty of work to do to earn a starting job.

I am curious if Boling could take over RG and allow Ogbuehi or Westerman at LG, but that'd be two spots with new faces instead of just one. While I think Westerman might be a good RG, I think he's also better suited at LG.

Honestly, if something doesn't click with Ogbuehi after this year or next, he'll likely go down as the biggest first round bust the Bengals have had in quite some time.

[lone bengal]

(02-13-2017, 05:30 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: I get that, but when I look at what was one of his major issues, along with terrible run blocking, OG seems like a worse fit.

These two tackle picks of Ced and Fisher could haunt the Bengals for a while. I'm not an expert offensive line evaluator but besides agreeing that Ced will probably struggle at any spot on the line based of last seasons horrid play, I also feel like Fisher is more built to play left tackle. He's 6'6 300 lbs ,a converted tight end and not really a mauler/ grinder in the run game which the right tackle position tends to be. Fisher seems more like a finesse / athletic offense linemen. Along with struggling to pass block last seasons the Bengals haven't been able to run the ball effectively in quite some time. I don't see that changing with Bodine getting pushed around, if Zeitler leaves based on reading Westerman's profile he's struggles with getting push in the run game, I don't see Fisher being a mauler and Boling seems to be a better pass blocker than run blocker.

[McC]

(02-13-2017, 06:13 PM)lone bengal Wrote: These two tackle picks of Ced and Fisher could haunt the Bengals for a while. I'm not an expert offensive line evaluator but besides agreeing that Ced will probably struggle at any spot on the line based of last seasons horrid play, I also feel like Fisher is more built to play left tackle. He's 6'6  300 lbs ,a converted tight end and not really a mauler/ grinder in the run game which the right tackle position tends to be. Fisher seems more like a finesse / athletic offense linemen. Along with struggling to pass block last seasons the Bengals haven't been able to run the ball effectively in quite some time. I don't see that changing with Bodine getting pushed around, if Zeitler leaves based on reading Westerman's profile he's struggles with getting push in the run game,  I don't see Fisher being a mauler  and Boling seems to be a better pass blocker than run blocker.

So, to summarize, we're screwed.  Better be sure the defense is top notch.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-13-2017, 05:45 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I understand that. I was simply responding to Okeana who said RG could be the best fit because that's where he was most successful in college. But as you point out, the traits that make most top-notch RGs successful are things that Ogbuehi lacks. He really is more suited for the left side (whether that's LT or LG) but still has plenty of work to do to earn a starting job.

I am curious if Boling could take over RG and allow Ogbuehi or Westerman at LG, but that'd be two spots with new faces instead of just one. While I think Westerman might be a good RG, I think he's also better suited at LG.

Honestly, if something doesn't click with Ogbuehi after this year or next, he'll likely go down as the biggest first round bust the Bengals have had in quite some time.

The only one on our bench that has a draft profile that points toward being a decent RG, is Trey Hopkins.  Westerman has more the requisite skill set of a typical LG, being more suited for pass blocking and the athleticism to execute traps and pulls.

Upon reading the NFL.com draft profiles of all of our OL bench, we are in serious need of some hard-nosed drive blockers.

[Hammerstripes]

(02-13-2017, 06:13 PM)lone bengal Wrote: These two tackle picks of Ced and Fisher could haunt the Bengals for a while. I'm not an expert offensive line evaluator but besides agreeing that Ced will probably struggle at any spot on the line based of last seasons horrid play, I also feel like Fisher is more built to play left tackle. He's 6'6  300 lbs ,a converted tight end and not really a mauler/ grinder in the run game which the right tackle position tends to be. Fisher seems more like a finesse / athletic offense linemen. Along with struggling to pass block last seasons the Bengals haven't been able to run the ball effectively in quite some time. I don't see that changing with Bodine getting pushed around, if Zeitler leaves based on reading Westerman's profile he's struggles with getting push in the run game,  I don't see Fisher being a mauler  and Boling seems to be a better pass blocker than run blocker.

I actually think Fisher will end up working out pretty good.

He really didn't get any reps all year since Ced was starting.  It will be interesting to see how he plays next year with a full year of prep.

[Derrick]

(02-13-2017, 05:30 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: I get that, but when I look at what was one of his major issues, along with terrible run blocking, OG seems like a worse fit.

Therefore, we can likely figure on him being the RG this coming season.

[Sled21]

I don't think Og has the strength or the balls to play offensive line in the NFL. It's just not in him...