Christian group vandalizes ancient Mexican archaeological site

[Belsnickel]

(06-29-2016, 12:22 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It's really just a title and if someone wants to consider themselves Christians then that's their choice. I do agree that the Trinity is the keystone belief in Christianity and disagree with those that do not believe in it as labeling themselves as such. For instance Jews believe in Jesus.

But Jehovah's Witnesses actually believe Jesus is the son of God. Essentially, their difference is they consider the Son separate from the Father and the Holy Spirit is the acting force of the Father and not a part of the trinity.

(06-29-2016, 12:25 PM)GMDino Wrote: But they only believe he was a profit.  Not the Messiah.

Indeed, same for Islam.

[*bfine32*]

(06-29-2016, 01:00 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: But Jehovah's Witnesses actually believe Jesus is the son of God. Essentially, their difference is they consider the Son separate from the Father and the Holy Spirit is the acting force of the Father and not a part of the trinity.


Indeed, same for Islam.

So none of those believe Salvation is obtained through Christ?

As I said, to me if they want to call themselves Christians, so be it. I just may not agree with how they classify themselves.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(06-29-2016, 11:53 AM)GMDino Wrote: http://creation.com/does-the-bible-clearly-teach-monogamy


I guess "endorsed" is the wrong word.

Allowed?
Permitted in certain circumstances?

That link is showing why it is wrong and God really wanted people to be monogamous...but it also has the references to the polygamy in the bible and how it went unpunished for the most part.

However, again, I didn't call them Christian.  They called themselves that.

Oh, I know.....I wasn't looking to argue, just stating my opinion on the matter.  

(06-29-2016, 11:57 AM)GMDino Wrote: I was raised Catholic.  I don't remember being told that the trinity was the basis for being a Christian.  But in all honesty when you are in religion class every day. five days a week, for 12 years...plus mass twice a week...things tend to get fuzzy in the old memory department.

Yeah, that would definitely tend to run together....  .  Perhaps basis is a bad choice of adjective, bfine says it best a couple posts down.....it's more like a cornerstone of the faith.

(06-29-2016, 12:16 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I don't think the OP calling JWs Christians is much of an issue. I will saying that stating they did it when the article states they have only been accused of doing it, may be a little more misleading. I'm not even sure if the article points to who accused them.

Reminds me of a time when Lucie accidently said wins instead of participates in a title. Folks lost their minds; here, not so much.

Agreed.....as I said earlier, just putting an opinion out there on the matter.

(06-29-2016, 12:22 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It's really just a title and if someone wants to consider themselves Christians then that's their choice. I do agree that the Trinity is the keystone belief in Christianity and disagree with those that do not believe in it as labeling themselves as such. For instance Jews believe in Jesus.

I would concur with you....

[BmorePat87]

(06-29-2016, 12:16 PM)bfine32 Wrote: . I will saying that stating they did it when the article states they have only been accused of doing it, may be a little more misleading. I'm not even sure if the article points to who accused them.

Reminds me of a time when Lucie accidently said wins instead of participates in a title. Folks lost their minds; here, not so much.

According to the source cited, they admitted to destroying the altars at the site but did not admit to drilling a hole in the pyramid, so the title is accurate (assuming we believe them when they say they did it).

The site includes the pyramid and the altars.

http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Jehovahs-Witnesses-Destroy-Ancient-Indigenous-Temple-in-Mexico-20160628-0009.html

[Belsnickel]

(06-29-2016, 01:07 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So none of those believe Salvation is obtained through Christ?

Jehovah's Witnesses do. It is a gift from God that is attained by putting faith in Christ's sacrifice, so it is salvation through Christ.

[*bfine32*]

(06-29-2016, 02:13 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: According to the source cited, they admitted to destroying the altars at the site but did not admit to drilling a hole in the pyramid, so the title is accurate (assuming we believe them when they say they did it).

The site includes the pyramid and the altars.

http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Jehovahs-Witnesses-Destroy-Ancient-Indigenous-Temple-in-Mexico-20160628-0009.html

I'll have to look when i get home, as some cites are blocked at work. I seem to recall they were only accused of vandalizing the 7,000 year old pyramid in question and had not accepted responsibility as they have for other relics.

[*bfine32*]

(06-29-2016, 02:28 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Jehovah's Witnesses do. It is a gift from God that is attained by putting faith in Christ's sacrifice, so it is salvation through Christ.

Perhaps I should have said solely.

[Benton]

(06-29-2016, 02:29 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'll have to look when i get home, as some cites are blocked at work. I seem to recall they were only accused of vandalizing the 7,000 year old pyramid in question and had not accepted responsibility as they have for other relics.

From the link.
Jehovah's Witnesses have fessed up to being behind the destruction of the stone altars, but have not taken responsibility for a hole that has reportedly been drilled in the base of a pyramid at the San Bartolo Tutotepec archeological site.

[BmorePat87]

(06-29-2016, 02:29 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'll have to look when i get home, as some cites are blocked at work. I seem to recall they were only accused of vandalizing the 7,000 year old pyramid in question and had not accepted responsibility as they have for other relics.

Yes, that is what I just said. Those "other relics" were altars at the same archaeological site. 

[BigPapaKain]

(06-29-2016, 02:29 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'll have to look when i get home, as some cites are blocked at work. I seem to recall they were only accused of vandalizing the 7,000 year old pyramid in question and had not accepted responsibility as they have for other relics.

As if 'only' vandalizing a 7000 year old pyramid isn't a big deal.

[*bfine32*]

(06-29-2016, 02:54 PM)Benton Wrote: From the link.
Jehovah's Witnesses have fessed up to being behind the destruction of the stone altars, but have not taken responsibility for a hole that has reportedly been drilled in the base of a pyramid at the San Bartolo Tutotepec archeological site.

(06-29-2016, 03:06 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Yes, that is what I just said. Those "other relics" were altars at the same archaeological site. 

Fair enough. I simply went by the first line of the link quoted.

[*bfine32*]

(06-29-2016, 03:38 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: As if 'only' vandalizing a 7000 year old pyramid isn't a big deal.

You may want to read what you quoted a little more closely and slower.

[Millhouse]

What was the point of this thread again? Is it to show that extreme Christians are just as bad as extreme Muslims in our world today? See Palmrya, Syria of what ISIS has done, and what they have done over there to other ancient temples and structures. http://abcnews.go.com/International/isis-levels-2000-year-syrian-temple-seconds/story?id=33283118 Like comparing a small turd to a hill of turds, if that is what the intent was.

Anyways be nice if there was a rule that when threads like this are created the op can actually make a point of some kind in p&r, jmo though.

[GMDino]

(06-29-2016, 04:04 PM)Millhouse Wrote: What was the point of this thread again? Is it to show that extreme Christians are just as bad as extreme Muslims in our world today?  See Palmrya, Syria of what ISIS has done, and what they have done over there to other ancient temples and structures. http://abcnews.go.com/International/isis-levels-2000-year-syrian-temple-seconds/story?id=33283118  Like comparing a small turd to a hill of turds, if that is what the intent was.

Anyways be nice if there was a rule that when threads like this are created the op can actually make a point of some kind in p&r, jmo though.

The intent was to post a story about how religion can make people do bad things.

There was no comparison made to any other religion...

[BigPapaKain]

(06-29-2016, 03:40 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You may want to read what you quoted a little more closely and slower.

You might want to assume I wasn't trying to be condescending towards you.

[BmorePat87]

(06-29-2016, 03:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Fair enough. I simply went by the first line of the link quoted.

It's not your fault that Raw Story sucks and did an awful job at trying to write an article based on another news source's article. 

[jmccracky]

According to the Talmud, the last prophet was Malachi. None came after him. If Jews considered Jesus to be a prophet, then that would mean he was in the Torah. Jews view him as more of a false prophet. Unless we are talking about Messianic Jews? In which, they aren't Jews at all.

Just thought I would try and correct that. Carry on!!

[Bengalzona]

(06-29-2016, 11:57 AM)GMDino Wrote: I was raised Catholic.  I don't remember being told that the trinity was the basis for being a Christian.  But in all honesty when you are in religion class every day. five days a week, for 12 years...plus mass twice a week...things tend to get fuzzy in the old memory department.

It is in the Nicene Creed (325AD): 

Quote:I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/

The Nicene Creed is taught in Catholicism, in the Orthodox churches and in all Protestant churches. Even in the Mormon Church.

Basically, only the Jehovah's Witnesses do not adhere to it.

[GMDino]

(06-30-2016, 04:24 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: It is in the Nicene Creed (325AD): 



http://www.usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/what-we-believe/

The Nicene Creed is taught in Catholicism, in the Orthodox churches and in all Protestant churches. Even in the Mormon Church.

Basically, only the Jehovah's Witnesses do not adhere to it.

OK, I remember saying that.  I don't remember it being required to be a Christian.  Given the different sects (something we weren't taught in school btw) I can see it not be the cornerstone of some other group.

[Bengalzona]

(06-30-2016, 04:30 PM)GMDino Wrote: OK, I remember saying that.  I don't remember it being required to be a Christian.  Given the different sects (something we weren't taught in school btw) I can see it not be the cornerstone of some other group.

In your case, stating the creed was required for you to become a Catholic. Hence, it was required that you accept trinitariaism under your faith for you to become a Christian. It is the same with Orthodox's and with Protestants.

Actually, my post might have been a little misleading when I said "all Protestants" believe in the Nicene Creed. The Baptists are non-creedal (they don't require confessions of faith, which is funny because one Baptist church required me to recite John 3:16 before they would let me join... story for another day). But, they still believe in everything that is in the Nicene Creed (although they tend to cringe at the statement about "..holy, catholic and apostolic church...", mainly because many don't understand the use of the word "catholic" in the context does not mean the actual Catholic Church). Walk into any Baptist Church, tell them you are a Baptist but don't believe in the Trinity and see what happens. I guarantee you will start a very lively conversation on how you are wrong with most, if not all, the people there. 

Belief in the Trinity is probably the third strongest belief in Christianity, behind belief in the divinity of Christ (#1) and belief that Christ died for the sins of the world (#2). This creed was established very early in the church following the creation of a sect around 150 AD known as Arianism that taught essentially that Jesus was the son of God, but was subordinate to God and did not always exist, and that there was no Holy Spirit. This was considered anathema to the mainstream belief and Arianism were judged apostasy. Wars were fought between the Arians and the Nicenes over it. Obviously, the Nicenes won. This was one of the reasons for the creation of the Nicene Creed, to define Christian belief and have all Christians state that this is what they believe. 

Other non-trinitarian sects that claim to be Christian have arisen over the years and disappeared. As is the case with Jehovah's Witnesses (which started in Brooklyn in the 1870's), they claim they are Christian. But mainstream Christianity does not accept their claim because the don't accept some aspect of the Nicene Creed (or because a group adds additional scriptures, as is the case with the Mormons).

I suppose it is similar to the way mainstream Islam feels about groups like ISIL, although that rejection is based more upon interpretation/misinterpretation of scriptures rather than rejection or addition of scriptures, to my understanding. Most mainstream Muslims would be offended if you said ISIL represents Islam (yes, I am aware that the latter statement happens all of the time... even  on this Board). It is the same with with mainstream Christians when you say that Jehovah's Witnesses represent Christianity. It is felt that it is a misrepresentation.