Cincinnati campus officer shoots and kills unarmed black male

[Ryuko]

(07-30-2015, 09:06 AM)GMDino Wrote: If the officer asks something out of bounds?  If they start demanding you do things you don't have to do?

I do the same as you, but then I'm a middle aged white guy.  I'm not really afraid of being shot in the face as I am not their target audience so to speak.

What did he ask him that was "out of bounds"? To take his seat belt off? 

Obviously he shouldn't have been shot, but this is a red herring/straw man if I've ever seen one.

(07-30-2015, 09:38 AM)Beaker Wrote: I would question the officer to make sure I heard him correctly, then do as he asks. If it was something out of bounds, I would take it up in court later. Hopefully a dash cam or body cam would support my case. But arguing, or struggling with a person who is armed and has the ability to use deadly force does not make sense to me. Maybe the end result is I am wronged, but I am also alive.

Yep. Deal with all armed people the same, and you'll stay alive. Whether you're being arrested or mugged, nothing is worth making the armed guy nervous. Keep your hands visible, follow instructions, and move slowly. Nothing they want from you is worth your life, sort it out afterwards.

[GMDino]

(08-03-2015, 05:37 PM)Ryuko Wrote: What did he ask him that was "out of bounds"? To take his seat belt off? 

Obviously he shouldn't have been shot, but this is a red herring/straw man if I've ever seen one.


Yep. Deal with all armed people the same, and you'll stay alive. Whether you're being arrested or mugged, nothing is worth making the armed guy nervous. Keep your hands visible, follow instructions, and move slowly. Nothing they want from you is worth your life, sort it out afterwards.

I was speaking in general terms, not to this specific case.

You are not required to do something or answer a question JUST because an officer told you to.

And I will continue to hold police officer to a higher standard than muggers and criminals.  I should not expect to get shot while being stopped by an officer even if he gets "nervous".  

[Goalpost]

They are now saying that the container he handed to the cop wasn't alcohol. It was some type of fragrance put in an alcohol bottle.

[GMDino]

(08-03-2015, 08:53 PM)Goalpost Wrote: They are now saying that the container he handed to the cop wasn't alcohol.  It was some type of fragrance put in an alcohol bottle.

Yes, yes, but the car moved.

[Rotobeast]

(08-03-2015, 08:56 PM)GMDino Wrote: Yes, yes, but the car moved.

The car became sentient.
The officer tried to shoot it, but the driver got in the path of the shot while trying to escape the evil vehicle.

Sorry.... that's the path my mind took when reading your comment.
A life was lost and I shouldn't make light of it.
I deserve detention.

[Johnny Cupcakes]

So....I work with Ray Tensing's uncle. He revealed it to me today during a trip to New Orleans that we're making for a job coming up. Here are some things that I got out of the convo.

His family is ruined. His brother (Ray Tensing's father) is understandably a complete mess right now. They pulled together as a family and came up with the 100,000 bond needed to keep him a free man while he awaits trial, and needless to say, they're backing him up for the most part. They've all received death threats and are being actively protected by the police. I feel for their family here.....I'm sure they would not have chose this.

He backed up the officer's statements, but also said that there is some legit proof that he had been dragged by the car that hasn't been made public yet. He said that he was scared for his life and being dragged under the car, so he shot him.

The gin bottle was perfume, and he said that it's actually a common "hood thing" and he had 2/3 lb of weed on him.

Anyway....I just thought I'd share. There are no big revelations, but interesting to me regardless.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(08-03-2015, 11:32 PM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: So....I work with Ray Tensing's uncle.  He revealed it to me today during a trip to New Orleans that we're making for a job coming up.  Here are some things that I got out of the convo.

His family is ruined.  His brother (Ray Tensing's father) is understandably a complete mess right now.  They pulled together as a family and came up with the 100,000 bond needed to keep him a free man while he awaits trial, and needless to say, they're backing him up for the most part.  They've all received death threats and are being actively protected by the police.  I feel for their family here.....I'm sure they would not have chose this.

He backed up the officer's statements, but also said that there is some legit proof that he had been dragged by the car that hasn't been made public yet.  He said that he was scared for his life and being dragged under the car, so he shot him.

The gin bottle was perfume, and he said that it's actually a common "hood thing" and he had 2/3 lb of weed on him.

Anyway....I just thought I'd share.  There are no big revelations, but interesting to me regardless.

This is gonna get ugly during trial if the defense can deliver even one shred of doubt in the jury...

[fredtoast]

(08-03-2015, 11:32 PM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: So....I work with Ray Tensing's uncle.  He revealed it to me today during a trip to New Orleans that we're making for a job coming up.  Here are some things that I got out of the convo.

His family is ruined.  His brother (Ray Tensing's father) is understandably a complete mess right now.  They pulled together as a family and came up with the 100,000 bond needed to keep him a free man while he awaits trial, and needless to say, they're backing him up for the most part.  They've all received death threats and are being actively protected by the police.  I feel for their family here.....I'm sure they would not have chose this.

He backed up the officer's statements, but also said that there is some legit proof that he had been dragged by the car that hasn't been made public yet.  He said that he was scared for his life and being dragged under the car, so he shot him.

The gin bottle was perfume, and he said that it's actually a common "hood thing" and he had 2/3 lb of weed on him.

Anyway....I just thought I'd share.  There are no big revelations, but interesting to me regardless.

the fact that his family believes him doesn't really prove anything.

[jgott32]

(08-04-2015, 01:33 AM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: This is gonna get ugly during trial if the defense can deliver even one shred of doubt in the jury...

There will be a lot of things coming out in trial that people haven't heard about. Like the 2 lbs of weed in the car and the thousands in cash. I have a family member who processed the scene, so obviously cant say much.

I said since the beginning he wouldn't get first degree, no way possible under the law does he fit that charge. Figured he'd get manslaughter. But, with new things such he may have actually been dragged like cupcake said, he may not even get that. It will def be interesting how both sides present their case.

[fredtoast]

(08-04-2015, 07:44 AM)jgott32 Wrote: There will be a lot of things coming out in trial that people haven't heard about. Like the 2 lbs of weed in the car and the thousands in cash. I have a family member who processed the scene, so obviously cant say much.

Actually that info is not relevant evidence at all. It had zero influence on the officer's actions.  So it will not come out at the trial.  

[Johnny Cupcakes]

(08-04-2015, 01:42 AM)fnredtoast Wrote: the fact that his family believes him doesn't really prove anything.

I'm pretty sure no one feels the opposite.

[Johnny Cupcakes]

(08-04-2015, 01:33 AM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: This is gonna get ugly during trial if the defense can deliver even one shred of doubt in the jury...

Cincinnati, and probably the entire country, would be a mess if he got set free by a jury.
I expect them to introduce some doubt, as the car clearly moved in the video before Tensing and the car separated, and their job in to defend him.  In the end, I think he'll go to jail, but maybe on a lesser charge than murder.  Although, in my opinion, it was clearly murder, a fair jury will not be made up of all people that think like me.

[Devils Advocate]

(08-04-2015, 08:34 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually that info is not relevant evidence at all. It had zero influence on the officer's actions.  So it will not come out at the trial.  

This. It won't even be admitted as evidence. 

[*michaelsean*]

(08-04-2015, 12:05 PM)Devils Advocate Wrote: This. It won't even be admitted as evidence. 

It might be used by the defense as a motive for him to try to flee the scene. 

[jgott32]

 

(08-04-2015, 08:34 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually that info is not relevant evidence at all. It had zero influence on the officer's actions.  So it will not come out at the trial.  

did I say it would be evidence exhibit A or B? The info however is relevant as to why a guy w/previous arrest would stop an officer from opening the door, start the car and attempt to flee. How do you know it had zero influence? you're not a cop, you don't know his thought process. its pretty well known that a bottle of perfume like that is used to mask the smell of, oh, you know weed. The bottle will be evidence. 

[*bfine32*]

Thought I'd place this here only because Bland has been discussed in this thread and I didn't see it anywhere else:

http://news.yahoo.com/family-of-woman-found-dead-in-texas-jail-files-wrongful-death-suit-142403022.html#

Quote:The family of Sandra Bland filed a wrongful death lawsuit on Tuesday against a Texas trooper, a sheriff’s office and her jailers, accusing them of being responsible for the woman's apparent suicide in a county jail.

They made her kill herself.

[fredtoast]

(08-04-2015, 12:13 PM)michaelsean Wrote: It might be used by the defense as a motive for him to try to flee the scene. 

(08-04-2015, 01:51 PM)jgott32 Wrote:  

did I say it would be evidence exhibit A or B? The info however is relevant as to why a guy w/previous arrest would stop an officer from opening the door, start the car and attempt to flee. How do you know it had zero influence? you're not a cop, you don't know his thought process. its pretty well known that a bottle of perfume like that is used to mask the smell of, oh, you know weed. The bottle will be evidence. 

Motive is meaningless when there is no dispute over what actually happened.

If there was no video and the cop was claiming that he was trying to flee then there is a slight chance it could get in, but we don't need to establish motive because there is a video of what actually happened.

[GMDino]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/08/09/sam-dubose-driving-while-black/31365205/

Quote:Rap sheet of unarmed black driver killed in Ohio tells tale

DaShonda Reid lost track of how many times her boyfriend called her from jail through the years.

"I'm in a situation," Sam DuBose would say. Reid wouldn't ask for details.

Instead, she would put her training as a paralegal to work, make some phone calls, figure out where he was being held and how much money it would cost to bring him home.

The Enquirer analyzed DuBose's lengthy Hamilton County record and found a pattern: He would be pulled over for a minor traffic offense — say, not wearing a seat belt or speeding. That would lead to facing citations or misdemeanor charges, for which he would be ordered to pay a fine before being sent on his way.


The stops added up: DuBose, who was shot and killed by a University of Cincinnati police officer during a July 19 traffic stop, previously had been cited or arrested 90 times. Since the late 1980s, when he began racking up arrests as a teenager, he paid fines totaling nearly $12,000.

But another pattern emerged as well: DuBose never had a weapon during any of his police encounters. He never was accused of fleeing when pulled over for a traffic violation.

The only violent charges leveled against him — two in more than 20 years — ended in an acquittal and a dismissal.

For the average Cincinnatian, having so many run-ins with law enforcement in a lifetime seems unfathomable. But black motorists in America are about 31% more likely to be pulled over than white drivers, and 23% more likely than Hispanic drivers, according to the most recent Police-Public Contact Survey from the Justice Department.

In DuBose's case, more than 50 of his 90 police run-ins began with traffic stops, including the one that ended with Officer Ray Tensing, 25, firing a bullet into his head. The fatal encounter began because DuBose didn't have a front license plate on the car he was driving.

"These traffic stops for minor offenses accomplish nothing," said John Roman, a senior fellow with the Urban Institute who studies policing and hopes that, if nothing else, DuBose's death might lead to some policy changes.

Court records show that DuBose's vice was marijuana. Since his teenage years, his record is spotted with some 25 marijuana-related arrests, usually resulting from police finding a baggie in his pocket during a traffic stop.

One trafficking charge in 2005 was hefty enough to land DuBose in the state prison system, but the other offenses were for having fewer than 100 grams on him for personal use.

Reid acknowledged that DuBose years ago sold marijuana, but she said those days were behind him.

His prison stint had set him straight, she said. These days, he made his money in his recording studio.

“It makes you question is that really how we want to spend our money and our time? Do we just want to harass nonviolent offenders?”
John Roman, Urban Institute

DuBose once ran from an officer and eventually was found in the crawl space of a basement, according to his records in 2004.

That arrest cost him $78 in fines.

But Reid said her 43-year-old boyfriend finally was maturing and wanted to set a better example for his children, so he tried to stay out of trouble.

Court records show his efforts were working: After a peak year of nine police encounters in 1998, he had slowed down to three apiece in 2011 and 2012 — mostly for driving with a suspended license.

None of the citations in 2012 stuck, court records show. Nor did the charge in his last police interaction from August 2013, when Reid said an argument in their Springdale, Ohio, home was blown out of proportion. The assault charge in that incident was dismissed.

For the next 23 months, DuBose's record was cleaner than it had been his entire adult life.

Then came July 19.

Whether DuBose's arrests through the years were a worthwhile use of police resources is up for debate. In a guest column for The Enquirer, former Cincinnati police officer John Burke said, "Many of these so-called 'chicken-crap' stops result in seizures of contraband and felony arrests."


Burke, who heads the Warren County Drug Task Force, points to the license-plate violation that led to the arrest of Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh.

"Trust me. Law-abiding citizens do not want officers to cease making stops based on minor violations," Burke said.

But Roman of the Urban Institute said these types of stops should be to find violent criminals, not just to hit non-violent offenders with thousands of dollars in fines.

"It's a lot of money spent perpetuating a cycle," Roman said. "There are fines associated with these low-level offenses, which can cause someone to commit another low-level offense to get the revenue to pay the fine.

"It makes you question is that really how we want to spend our money and our time?" he said. "Do we just want to harass non-violent offenders?"

Cincinnati Police already asked and answered that question with a resounding "no" in the years since the city's 2001 riots.

The Cincinnati Collaborative Agreement, which tackled police protocols here that helped fuel the racial unrest, has been hailed nationwide as a success. Pundits pointed to it as a model to emulate in Ferguson, Mo., where a year ago Sunday a white police officer shot and killed an unarmed black man, sparking riots.

In Cincinnati, annual reports indicate that race isn't a factor in traffic stops anymore. Incidents of police use of force dropped nearly 70% between 1999 and 2014, and resident complaints dropped 42%.

But that's Cincinnati. Tensing worked for the University of Cincinnati.


There, use of force skyrocketed just this year. The department reported 16 use-of-force incidents so far this year – a 700% increase from the two incidents reported in all of 2014.

The university has hired 32 new police officers in the past year, nearly doubling its ranks. It has shifted its focus from campus patrols to more aggressive traffic enforcement in city neighborhoods bordering the campus.

University of Cincinnati cops have issued more traffic tickets so far this year than in all of 2014, and more than three times as many tickets as in 2012, according to an Enquirer analysis of data from UC researchers.

The traffic emphasis has hit black motorists especially hard because they received more tickets than white drivers and were arrested more often as a result of traffic stops. Tensing gave 81% of the tickets he wrote this year to blacks.

As university officers spread out more onto city streets, they were without the benefit of the collaborative agreement, training and institutional knowledge that Cincinnati officers had after the riots.

That could change: The university is considering joining the agreement, and President Santa Ono of the University of Cincinnati told reporters that officers from the two departments are working in tandem as their patrolling issues are sorted.

To criminologist and former police officer David Klinger, what happened between DuBose and Tensing is counter to both police training and common sense. He has watched the video captured by Tensing's body camera, which shows that after talking for about 2 minutes, DuBose turned the ignition key and started his car after Tensing told him to step out.

"I didn't even do nothing," DuBose said. Tensing reached into the car with his left hand and pointed the gun at DuBose's head with his right, firing a fatal shot seconds after the car started.

Tensing's family said in a letter to The Enquirer that the since-fired officer "needed to protect himself."


"Why in the world would he pull his gun out at that point?" said Klinger, an associate professor at the University of Missouri-St. Louis. "It literally defies logic."

The response comes down to training, Klinger said.

"Why do some police officers do foolish things?" he said. "They're either not following their training, or they're not being trained properly. That's what we need answered.

[*bfine32*]

The Officer freely admitted that DuBose didn't reach for anything:

https://video.xx.fbcdn.net/hvideo-xfp1/v/t42.1790-2/11759348_877091302380995_1321143424_n.mp4?efg=eyJybHIiOjQ5NiwicmxhIjo1MTJ9&rl=496&vabr=276&oh=c33ba5e9c7ba4113777588690bc54617&oe=55C78B1B

[*michaelsean*]

He only had more than 100 grams once when he was stopped. Well he had 2 lbs this time so what's the point? It looks like the guy was murdered. That's illegal if the victim is clean or not.

81% if Tensing's tickets were to black people? Maybe visit the neighbirhoods around UC and take a wild guess as to why that might be.

We have black men killed here every week and nobody telling us how the victim with 2 lbs of pot is clean.