Civil War coming ?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-13-2022, 07:26 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I mean, the FBI has been warning about it for even longer. I'm sure in your job you have seen the information coming through from them.

It depends on what domestic terrorism you're speaking of.  For most people that means "white supremacist" violence as that's the popular narrative in most media.  I can't speak for other parts of the country, but that's not really an issue here, except for very small pockets in placed like Huntington Beach.  Even there, it's street level violence and much less frequent than your run of the mill type violence.  For Los Angeles county, where I work, our biggest issue, by far, is street gangs and, for the surenos gangs the Mexican Mafia.  Not exactly a domestic terrorist threat though.  Now, if you want to talk Portland or Seattle, I have contacts in both cities and the far left groups there are by far the biggest domestic terrorist issue they face.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(07-13-2022, 01:44 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Not saying it's not looking possible now, but it's been about 157 years since the Civil War ended. You're coming on your 9th straight year of saying it, meaning you've spent nearly nearly 6% of the time since the last Civil War saying that. At what point does it become less back patting for calling it and more "if you keep taking shots, you have to hit one eventually"? 10% 20%?

I don't see that. If anything, i would see a leader that comes in and gets alot accomplished that gets the Nation back on track.

[Dill]

(07-12-2022, 01:21 PM)Sled21 Wrote: The attempted coup when Hillary and the DNC made up false allegations to Impeach the sitting President? Or the attempted coup when they spied on the sitting President? Or the attempted coup when a bunch of people trespassed in the Capital.  If one bothers you, shouldn't all bother you? And exactly how does a political party exercise control greater than their proportion of the citizenry? They must be pulling the independants, right?

Gosh, Sled.

This may be the worst presentation of false equivalences I have seen yet in this forum.


No Trump impeachment was ever based on "false allegations" by anyone, let alone "Hillary and the DNC." 

Spying on a sitting president is not an attempted coup--especially if the spying did not actually occur. 

You don't seem to see any difference between a Fox fact and the video evidence of Trump inciting people to mob the capital at a critical moment of election certification, as part of a larger scheme to flood the Senate with lists of false electors, as shown now by documentary evidence. OF COURSE that bothers me way more than Hillary just saying she thought "something wrong" about the 2016 election plus a Trump tweet claiming his phone was tapped.

You don't know about gerrymandering or voter fraud? Laws designed to target and disenfranchise Dem voters? 

[Dill]

(07-12-2022, 12:28 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Hi, my name is Matt and i have been saying something similar since 2014-ish. All the literature on the topic of the fall of democratic societies points to this occurring. The warning signs are there and have been for some time. It's why the attempted coup must be taken seriously. It's why efforts to undermine democratic processes must be taken seriously. We have one political party capable of exercising control greater than their proportion of the citizenry and they are using their power to remove the voice of the people. Straight up.

What he said. 

And I've been saying something similar too, whenever I advocate teaching students and the public about the history of authoritarian regimes--especially where they have emerged from democratic states. Stop focusing on bad individuals as simple causes and start recognizing the social/economic conditions that turn voters to authoritarian leaders and solutions.  That includes especially mass disinformation to paralyze rational policy making, and the concomitant undermining of confidence in institutions necessary for functioning democracy, starting with a free press, science, and public education, while at the same time developing an alternative source of authority in the Fuehrerprinzip (leader's word above law) and a party out to save the country from those who don't deserve its fruits. 

Trump threw up many authoritarian red flags in 2016, but millions were either unable to recognize them for what they were (sure he's a bad character, but he will grow into the awesome responsibilities of the office; or we only need someone to sign the bills we place on his desk), or regarded them as positives--exactly what they wanted. 

[Dill]

(07-13-2022, 11:20 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It depends on what domestic terrorism you're speaking of.  For most people that means "white supremacist" violence as that's the popular narrative in most media.  I can't speak for other parts of the country, but that's not really an issue here, except for very small pockets in placed like Huntington Beach.  Even there, it's street level violence and much less frequent than your run of the mill type violence.  For Los Angeles county, where I work, our biggest issue, by far, is street gangs and, for the surenos gangs the Mexican Mafia.  Not exactly a domestic terrorist threat though.  Now, if you want to talk Portland or Seattle, I have contacts in both cities and the far left groups there are by far the biggest domestic terrorist issue they face.

That's a "popular narrative" with Homeland Security and the FBI too, isn't it?

[*Nately120*]

(07-13-2022, 02:37 PM)Dill Wrote: What he said. 
Trump threw up many authoritarian red flags in 2016, but millions were either unable to recognize them for what they were (sure he's a bad character, but he will grow into the awesome responsibilities of the office; or we only need someone to sign the bills we place on his desk), or regarded them as positives--exactly what they wanted. 

This is also where our system being slanted towards one of the two major parties causes extra issues.  Whether it is right or good or "what the founders wanted" or whatever, one of our two major parties can come in 2nd place and win and the other one can't.  Trump going from a NYC playboy democrat and/or someone who doesn't care about politics outside of his own self interests to being THE more republican republican ever since maybe Regan or Lincoln and being accepted and placed upon a pedestal is troubling.

It just seems like such a coincidence that a guy who wants power for his own selfish reasons just so happened to choose to go the route where he'd have a much easier time attaining it.  The GOP has more influence than voters, so they need to be a bit more vigilant about who they let drive their extremely powerful vehicle, so to speak.

And that's on a national level.  I get it, if you want to be a political crook in CA you're a democrat and if you want to fleece the fine people of Mississippi you're a Jesus Baby Gun no CRT republican, for real this isn't a joke I care about those things not your money.

When a celebrity with no experience wants to make an album they make a rap album and when a celebrity with no experience wants to win a political race...well, they should hedge their bets and be a republican.

[Dill]

(07-12-2022, 07:07 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: The key word you mentioned was citizens. Republicans don’t care who votes as long as they are aloud to do so. And that means 1 person, 1 vote. Not 2 or more. Not bringing in illegals by the thousands to try and vote either. Not auntie Martha casting a vote for her dead husband either. IMO.

According to Trump, millions of illegals voted in the 2016 election.

That's what cost him the popular vote.

But even his own task force could not find evidence of a SINGLE illegal alien voting. 

How do you suppose these illegals were able to to hide their votes, even in states where Republicans were in charge of running the elections?

Or maybe the more relevant and critical question is--why do people keep saying that illegals and "dead people" are voting,without evidence beyond Trump's word? 

And why does mass belief in what cannot be proven lead to "voter integrity" laws designed to reduce voting in heavily Dem districts? 

If a mass of voters are led to believe, without evidence, that illegals are "brought in" to vote, but have no knowledge of how reducing or eliminating drop boxes and mail in voting will affect access to the vote, couldn't that be by design?  Why would people who don't care who is allowed to vote work so hard to target some districts for restricted access?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-13-2022, 02:41 PM)Dill Wrote: That's a "popular narrative" with Homeland Security and the FBI too, isn't it?

It is now.  Of course, when one looks at the actual numbers these "white supremacists" kill a minuscule number of people a year.

https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/s894/BILLS-116s894is.xml


(4) An unclassified May 2017 joint intelligence bulletin from the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Department of Homeland Security found that “white supremacist extremism poses [a] persistent threat of lethal violence,” and that White supremacists “were responsible for 49 homicides in 26 attacks from 2000 to 2016 … more than any other domestic extremist movement”.


Now, does this mean it should be ignored or that the people killed are no less deserving of life, as some here will predictably try to spin this post?  Absolutely not.  But a terrorist threat that killed 49 people of 16 years, or around three people a year, doesn't sound like nearly the threat that we constantly hear about from the media.  Criminal street gangs kill more people in Chicago in a month than this terrorist threat did in sixteen years.  They should still be investigated and prosecuted whenever applicable, but let's please not act like it's the major threat that we hear about on MSNBC every five minutes.

[*Nately120*]

(07-13-2022, 03:14 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It is now.  Of course, when one looks at the actual numbers these "white supremacists" kill a minuscule number of people a year.

https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/s894/BILLS-116s894is.xml


(4) An unclassified May 2017 joint intelligence bulletin from the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Department of Homeland Security found that “white supremacist extremism poses [a] persistent threat of lethal violence,” and that White supremacists “were responsible for 49 homicides in 26 attacks from 2000 to 2016 … more than any other domestic extremist movement”.


Now, does this mean it should be ignored or that the people killed are no less deserving of life, as some here will predictably try to spin this post?  Absolutely not.  But a terrorist threat that killed 49 people of 16 years, or around three people a year, doesn't sound like nearly the threat that we constantly hear about from the media.  Criminal street gangs kill more people in Chicago in a month than this terrorist threat did in sixteen years.  They should still be investigated and prosecuted whenever applicable, but let's please not act like it's the major threat that we hear about on MSNBC every five minutes.

I'm pretty sure the bi-partisan support of the term black on black violence has given americans the luxury to dismiss gang violence more than any sort of news outlet has. 

How many of us are going to be black and on the southside of Chicago tonight? 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-13-2022, 03:36 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm pretty sure the bi-partisan support of the term black on black violence has given americans the luxury to dismiss gang violence more than any sort of news outlet has. 

How many of us are going to be black and on the southside of Chicago tonight? 

How many of us are going to be attacked by white supremacists during a terrorist attack?  If the numbers are consistent then only three of over 330 million people have anything to worry about in a given year.  I know you're not making this argument, but I don't care who kills who, the victim is still dead.  We should be concerned with all of it, but most especially the factors that drive the vast majority of murders in this country.

[*Nately120*]

(07-13-2022, 03:57 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: How many of us are going to be attacked by white supremacists during a terrorist attack?  If the numbers are consistent then only three of over 330 million people have anything to worry about in a given year.  I know you're not making this argument, but I don't care who kills who, the victim is still dead.  We should be concerned with all of it, but most especially the factors that drive the vast majority of murders in this country.

I get what you are saying, believe me.  I told stories over the years on here about people I know in podunk PA who sincerely fear Muslim terrorists while openly lamenting that drunk driving laws have gotten so much stricter over the years.  When it comes to imagining what is gonna kill you, it's usually about stories and imagination and politics over actual facts.

I mean, how many people who have never been in the ocean are more worried about sharks than driving over the speed limit?  What's really going to cause you harm?

But as far as white supremacy and the civil war goes, well...that probably applies more to the fear that white supremacist groups do their recruiting in and have had some influence over jobs or political groups that are very mainstream and legitimate.  All I'm saying is that Trump and the new-look GOP seem more white supremacist than Obama seemed like he was actively introducing Chicago gang violence into the mainstream democratic party.

At the end of the day though I'm still more likely to get taken out by some local dumbass who runs a stop sign because he's fiddling with his phone.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-13-2022, 04:07 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I get what you are saying, believe me.  I told stories over the years on here about people I know in podunk PA who sincerely fear Muslim terrorists while openly lamenting that drunk driving laws have gotten so much stricter over the years.  When it comes to imagining what is gonna kill you, it's usually about stories and imagination and politics over actual facts.

I mean, how many people who have never been in the ocean are more worried about sharks than driving over the speed limit?  What's really going to cause you harm?

But as far as white supremacy and the civil war goes, well...that probably applies more to the fear that white supremacist groups do their recruiting in and have had some influence over jobs or political groups that are very mainstream and legitimate.  All I'm saying is that Trump and the new-look GOP seem more white supremacist than Obama seemed like he was actively introducing Chicago gang violence into the mainstream democratic party.

At the end of the day though I'm still more likely to get taken out by some local dumbass who runs a stop sign because he's fiddling with his phone.

Yeah, I get it.  I had to talk my friend, who's a teacher, off the ledge after the Uvalde shooting.  As for the GOP, I have no doubt that there are white supremacists within the GOP, hell maybe in Congress.  I do not think white supremacy is a core value of the party, or that the vast majority of Republicans think that way.  As I've said many times, I know a very large number of people of Hispanic origin who vote GOP, and you're seeing that trend nationally as well (as I predicted btw ;P).  I also believe there are equally virulent racists within the Democratic party, and yes, maybe some in Congress.  I don't think racism is a core tenant of either party, either openly or behind closed doors.

[Dill]

(07-13-2022, 03:14 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: It is now.  Of course, when one looks at the actual numbers these "white supremacists" kill a minuscule number of people a year.

https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/s894/BILLS-116s894is.xml

(4) An unclassified May 2017 joint intelligence bulletin from the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Department of Homeland Security found that “white supremacist extremism poses [a] persistent threat of lethal violence,” and that White supremacists “were responsible for 49 homicides in 26 attacks from 2000 to 2016 … more than any other domestic extremist movement”.

Now, does this mean it should be ignored or that the people killed are no less deserving of life, as some here will predictably try to spin this post?  Absolutely not.  But a terrorist threat that killed 49 people of 16 years, or around three people a year, doesn't sound like nearly the threat that we constantly hear about from the media.  Criminal street gangs kill more people in Chicago in a month than this terrorist threat did in sixteen years.  They should still be investigated and prosecuted whenever applicable, but let's please not act like it's the major threat that we hear about on MSNBC every five minutes.

You are slighting the qualitative measures for quantitative here.  The 49 people referenced here does not include any deaths from 2017 to present: the Pittsburgh Synogogue (11 dead), the El Paso shooting (23 dead), the recent Buffalo shooting (10 dead), that's 44 in three years. Ignoring attacks since 2017 that don't rise to the level of "mass" but kill at least one, like the Monsey Hanukkah stabbing and the Boogaloo killings (2), the Powey Synagogue killing (1) and the Aztec school shooting (3) and the Jefferson town shooting (2) that's more than 53 AND way more than three a year for 5 years. This does not include foiled bombing attempts which would have killed many more.


And what about the white supremacist involvement in the Trump coup attempt? That's pretty far from "fringe" when you are working with a sitting president and his political party. 

The threat is not just about four or five people killed per year, or even 10 or 20. It's about a growing authoritarian, violent trend, with a voice on Fox News amplifying WS replacement theory.  All Chicago gangs combined do not have that clout.

So I will "act" like this is a major threat, as we move towards midterm elections and impending disruptions in the wake of "voter integrity" laws. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-13-2022, 05:05 PM)Dill Wrote: You are slighting the qualitative measures for quantitative here.  The 49 people referenced here does not include any deaths from 2017 to present: the Pittsburgh Synogogue (11 dead), the El Paso shooting (23 dead), the recent Buffalo shooting (10 dead), that's 44 in three years. Ignoring attacks since 2017 that don't rise to the level of "mass" but kill at least one, like the Monsey Hanukkah stabbing and the Boogaloo killings (2), the Powey Synagogue killing (1) and the Aztec school shooting (3) and the Jefferson town shooting (2) that's more than 53 AND way more than three a year for 5 years. This does not include foiled bombing attempts which would have killed many more.

Very fair to add them.  Let's look at just that time frame then.  10.3 deaths a year.  That's still an average week or two in Chicago.  So, again, it's definitely a problem that law enforcement should be concerned with.  But is it the grave threat it is frequently represented as?  

Quote:And what about the white supremacist involvement in the Trump coup attempt? That's pretty far from "fringe" when you are working with a sitting president and his political party. 

I've stated many times I'm not following the hearings.  Exactly what white supremacist are you referring to here?

Quote:The threat is not just about four or five people killed per year, or even 10 or 20. It's about a growing authoritarian, violent trend, with a voice on Fox News amplifying WS replacement theory.  All Chicago gangs combined do not have that clout.

The vast majority of the instances listed were lone wolf attacks.  There will certainly be copy cats, especially from people who share those views.  I've heard the replacement theory attack many times.  I've seen clips that Tucker has been accused of making that argument.  The replacement theory is that Jews are intentionally attempting to eliminate Caucasians through mass immigration and "race mixing" (their word not mine).  Carlson has argued that Dems do not stop illegal immigration because they benefit from it politically as new immigrants tend to vote Democrat.  Shockingly enough, this was a commonly stated position on this very board, well the old board at least, stated without a hint of racial animus.

Quote:So I will "act" like this is a major threat, as we move towards midterm elections and impending disruptions in the wake of "voter integrity" laws. 

Well of course you will.  But you also mitigate, excuse and downplay Islamic terrorism, which has killed vastly more people that white supremacist terrorists within the same 2000-2022 time frame.  Hell, even if you remove 9/11's massive causalities, and why would you since we're talking about a time frame that includes it, Islamic terrorists still have white supremacists beat.  Pulse nightclub shooting in 2016 killed 49 people.  Fort Hood shooting in 2009 killed 13 people.  San Bernardino shooting in 2015 killed 14 people. the 2017 NYC truck attack killed eight.  That's 84 and I haven't begun to exhaust the list and I'm leaving out the over 3,000 people killed on 9/11.  So you'll forgive me if I take a bit of a jaundiced view of your perception of what is important or not in this regard.

[GMDino]

(07-13-2022, 05:05 PM)Dill Wrote: You are slighting the qualitative measures for quantitative here.  The 49 people referenced here does not include any deaths from 2017 to present: the Pittsburgh Synogogue (11 dead), the El Paso shooting (23 dead), the recent Buffalo shooting (10 dead), that's 44 in three years. Ignoring attacks since 2017 that don't rise to the level of "mass" but kill at least one, like the Monsey Hanukkah stabbing and the Boogaloo killings (2), the Powey Synagogue killing (1) and the Aztec school shooting (3) and the Jefferson town shooting (2) that's more than 53 AND way more than three a year for 5 years. This does not include foiled bombing attempts which would have killed many more.


And what about the white supremacist involvement in the Trump coup attempt? That's pretty far from "fringe" when you are working with a sitting president and his political party. 

The threat is not just about four or five people killed per year, or even 10 or 20. It's about a growing authoritarian, violent trend, with a voice on Fox News amplifying WS replacement theory.  All Chicago gangs combined do not have that clout.

So I will "act" like this is a major threat, as we move towards midterm elections and impending disruptions in the wake of "voter integrity" laws. 

Dill,  some people are just more inclined to downplay white supremacists.  

Hard to tell why. 

It's always Antifa and BLM that are out there slaughtering people.  Or "gangs".  Black gangs or Mexican gangs though. 

That's why Islamists are being brough up again.

White gangs don't count. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-13-2022, 05:55 PM)GMDino Wrote: Dill,  some people are just more inclined to downplay white supremacists.  

Hard to tell why.   

Be a man for once in your life and actually say what you mean.  If you're going to accuse me of something then do it instead of being a punk.

Quote:It's always Antifa and BLM that are out there slaughtering people.  Or "gangs".  Black gangs or Mexican gangs though. 

Sorry that most murders are the result of inner city gang violence.  I'm also sorry that, as your friend Fred also pointed out, that black people (largely the men) make up ~13% of the population but commit over half the homicides in this nation.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/table-43

These aren't facts I revel in, they're facts I hope we can change.  You label everyone who disagrees with you a racist.  You did it with Bfine when he posted a picture of Chicago looting and accused him of picking the picture with black people front and center.  Then when it turned out that he literally picked the first image from google images on the incident you tucked tail and ran.  You're a serial, and pathetic, racism accuser.  One has to wonder about the inner workings of a "man" who so blithely and routinely hurls such accusations at others.

Quote:That's why Islamists are being brough up again.  

We're talking about domestic terrorism.  Not sure if you're familiar with 9/11, but that was domestic terrorism.  As was the Pulse nightclub shooting, the Fort Hood shooting, the San Bernardino shooting and many others.  I'm sorry you only care about people who are murdered by white people.  I care about all the victims and won't discount any of them due to political or race based issues.

Quote:White gangs don't count. 

Who said that?  Literally no one.  I sit here smiling at your pathetic attempt to make me angry.  Instead I'm sitting here marveling as to how a person can be as deeply, and willfully, ignorant as you clearly are.  Your attempts to smear others only reveal just how pathetic your own position is. 

[*pally*]

(07-13-2022, 07:26 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: We're talking about domestic terrorism.  Not sure if you're familiar with 9/11, but that was domestic terrorism.  As was the Pulse nightclub shooting, the Fort Hood shooting, the San Bernardino shooting and many others.  I'm sorry you only care about people who are murdered by white people.  I care about all the victims and won't discount any of them due to political or race based issues.

Domestic terrorism is terrorism that takes place on home soil by citizens of that country.  While most of what you listed qualifies, 9/11 was perpetrated by foreigners not Americans

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-13-2022, 07:42 PM)pally Wrote: Domestic terrorism is terrorism that takes place on home soil by citizens of that country.  While most of what you listed qualifies, 9/11 was perpetrated by foreigners not Americans

Fair enough.  Remove 9/11 and my point still stands and the numbers still hold up.  

[GMDino]

(07-13-2022, 07:26 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Be a man for once in your life and actually say what you mean.  If you're going to accuse me of something then do it instead of being a punk.



Sorry that most murders are the result of inner city gang violence.  I'm also sorry that, as your friend Fred also pointed out, that black people (largely the men) make up ~13% of the population but commit over half the homicides in this nation.

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2019/crime-in-the-u.s.-2019/tables/table-43

These aren't facts I revel in, they're facts I hope we can change.  You label everyone who disagrees with you a racist.  You did it with Bfine when he posted a picture of Chicago looting and accused him of picking the picture with black people front and center.  Then when it turned out that he literally picked the first image from google images on the incident you tucked tail and ran.  You're a serial, and pathetic, racism accuser.  One has to wonder about the inner workings of a "man" who so blithely and routinely hurls such accusations at others.



We're talking about domestic terrorism.  Not sure if you're familiar with 9/11, but that was domestic terrorism.  As was the Pulse nightclub shooting, the Fort Hood shooting, the San Bernardino shooting and many others.  I'm sorry you only care about people who are murdered by white people.  I care about all the victims and won't discount any of them due to political or race based issues.


Who said that?  Literally no one.  I sit here smiling at your pathetic attempt to make me angry.  Instead I'm sitting here marveling as to how a person can be as deeply, and willfully, ignorant as you clearly are.  Your attempts to smear others only reveal just how pathetic your own position is. 

Ah...."punk".  Very Dirty Harry of you...lmao.  Glad you aren't "angry".

I care about all forms of terrorism.  I don't try to say one is less worse because of my personal feelings.

Not sure if you are aware of the gangs in the police force that use their positions to enforce their racism.  Just a couple of bad apples I guess...for decades.

And that isn't accusing YOU of racism, before you play the victim card again, but to say it's in your frigging backyard and you want to tell us about your "contacts" in Seattle and Portland.

Glass house, rocks, etc.

So when we talk about terrorism nothing should be off the table...no matter how "ignorant" you think the other person is.  

But, again, you only care about OTHERS being partisan and see nothing wrong with your own leanings.  I'm not surprised but it is boring.

Time to mute your ass again until I feel like "making you marvel".

I'd like to say it's been fun.  I'd like to say that, but I can't.

Tata.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(07-13-2022, 10:02 PM)GMDino Wrote: And that isn't accusing YOU of racism, before you play the victim card again, but to say it's in your frigging backyard and you want to tell us about your "contacts" in Seattle and Portland.

Yeah, no one is buying that, including you.

Quote:Time to mute your ass again until I feel like "making you marvel".

Take your ball and go home again, it's all you can do when you get called on your bullshit.