Cleveland Indians will remove Chief Wahoo logo from their uniforms

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-30-2018, 11:54 AM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: It's only a matter of time. Some institutions have been more proactive about it, and some will be stubborn and hold out.

As long as it's still making old white men smile though, you'll have regressives fighting it.

That's not always the case.....people should read about the relationship with the Seminole tribe and FSU.

[BmorePat87]

Just a cartoon?

[GMDino]

(01-31-2018, 02:35 PM)Wyche Wrote: That's not always the case.....people should read about the relationship with the Seminole tribe and FSU.

"Relationship" is the key word obviously.  I'm not sure which tribe has a relationship with Cleveland or Washington.

It can be done with a mutual respect...or it can be done defiantly.

[GMDino]

(01-31-2018, 03:06 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Just a cartoon?

It's funny!  For the children!  

[StLucieBengal]

(01-31-2018, 03:06 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Just a cartoon?

And this has what to do with a sports team logo?

[Johnny Cupcakes]

(01-31-2018, 02:35 PM)Wyche Wrote: That's not always the case.....people should read about the relationship with the Seminole tribe and FSU.

I just checked out an article from The Atlantic on this.

There seems to be a good deal of mutual support and respect between the Seminole tribe and the university.  The tribe is consulted on the shaping of traditions and celebratory ceremonies on campus, and the university takes the opportunity created by their relationship to expose students and faculty to native american history and cultural issues, as well as to celebrate multiculturalism.

And according to the university, “If at any time [the tribe’s members] were to decide they are not okay with” the use of the Seminole name, logos, imagery and likeness, it would stop immediately.”


I can't draw any comparison to the FSU/Seminole tribe relationship to use of the word "Redskin" with Washington or the Chief Wahoo caricature in Cleveland.


https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/11/native-imagery-in-college-sports/417036/

[StLucieBengal]

(01-31-2018, 03:30 PM)GMDino Wrote: "Relationship" is the key word obviously.  I'm not sure which tribe has a relationship with Cleveland or Washington.

It can be done with a mutual respect...or it can be done defiantly.

You don’t need a relationship to use a non specific word as Indians.

This has all gotten way out of hand. The team is still selling chief wahoo.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-31-2018, 03:30 PM)GMDino Wrote: "Relationship" is the key word obviously.  I'm not sure which tribe has a relationship with Cleveland or Washington.

It can be done with a mutual respect...or it can be done defiantly.

I agree......but it isn't always about "old white men" as the reply I quoted insinuated.  The Seminole people see it as a badge of honor, and FSU tries to incorporate some of the fighting spirit of Chief Osceola in the imagery and mantra.  Like "unconquered", and the pregame flaming spear.

[GMDino]

(01-31-2018, 03:42 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: And this has what to do with a sports team logo?

Did you answer the question?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-31-2018, 03:44 PM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: I just checked out an article from The Atlantic on this.

There seems to be a good deal of mutual support and respect between the Seminole tribe and the university.  The tribe is consulted on the shaping of traditions and celebratory ceremonies on campus, and the university takes the opportunity created by their relationship to expose students and faculty to native american history and cultural issues, as well as to celebrate multiculturalism.

And according to the university, “If at any time [the tribe’s members] were to decide they are not okay with” the use of the Seminole name, logos, imagery and likeness, it would stop immediately.”


I can't draw any comparison to the FSU/Seminole tribe relationship to use of the word "Redskin" with Washington or the Chief Wahoo caricature in Cleveland.


https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/11/native-imagery-in-college-sports/417036/

Absolutely.....I was just referring to your line about it being only for the amusement of old white men.  In fact, when all of this came to a head several years ago, the university and the Seminole Nation were very proactive in making sure this was a respect thing.  The Seminole Nation actually came to bat for the school.

That said, the main logo for FSU is indeed a likeness of Chief Osceola.  I sport it proudly from a chain on my neck, and have since 1987.  

The only unconquered tribe in the land.  Great history about the Nation.

EDIT: I think the Chippewas of Central Michigan have a similar relationship.

[Millhouse]

(01-31-2018, 01:34 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Yeah, to each his own, as long as you try to be consistent.  I've noticed people like to tell other people to "just ignore" things don't offend them, but when something offends them they don't feel the need to just ignore it, because they're totally having it "shoved down their throats."

I recall having a discussion with a coworker a few years back where he stated that people should just ignore the Redskins name/logo or get over it, but at the same time was really upset that he had to raise his impressionable daughter in a world where the gay agenda is allowed to be forced upon us.  Simply put, the only things that are offensive and can't be simply ignored are the things that offend me...because you are offended by stupid stuff and the things that offend me are legit threats and should be treated as such.

People are full o' baloney.

Well if Washington changes their name from Redskins, then that is perfectly fine to me. Maybe in the 1930s when they adopted that name instead of the Braves which was the baseball teams name, it was acceptable back then. But today I definitely understand why it is offensive to many native peoples. 

Overall though I dont have any issue when teams or schools use native american names, like FSU Seminoles, Atlanta Braves, etc. Just as long as it is being used in a respectable manner so to speak. So I can see why Wahoo is offensive, particularly because he is red. If he was better done without the red and a better done smile instead of that goof one, I dont think it would matter as much.

[*bfine32*]

(01-31-2018, 02:04 AM)Benton Wrote: It's a far cry from a caricature with a penis nose.

What about the tongue from the older UK logo?

[Millhouse]

(01-31-2018, 05:29 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Well if Washington changes their name from Redskins, then that is perfectly fine to me. Maybe in the 1930s when they adopted that name instead of the Braves which was the baseball teams name, it was acceptable back then. But today I definitely understand why it is offensive to many native peoples. 

Overall though I dont have any issue when teams or schools use native american names, like FSU Seminoles, Atlanta Braves, etc. Just as long as it is being used in a respectable manner so to speak. So I can see why Wahoo is offensive, particularly because he is red. If he was better done without the red and a better done smile instead of that goof one, I dont think it would matter as much.

I stand corrected by this. According to a Washington Post poll back in 2016, 9/10 Indians weren't offended by the word Redskins. And per article it says that has remained unchanged since 2004.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/new-poll-finds-9-in-10-native-americans-arent-offended-by-redskins-name/2016/05/18/3ea11cfa-161a-11e6-924d-838753295f9a_story.html?utm_term=.8413e226154e

[Belsnickel]

(01-31-2018, 06:29 PM)Millhouse Wrote: I stand corrected by this. According to a Washington Post poll back in 2016, 9/10 Indians weren't offended by the word Redskins. And per article it says that has remained unchanged since 2004.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/new-poll-finds-9-in-10-native-americans-arent-offended-by-redskins-name/2016/05/18/3ea11cfa-161a-11e6-924d-838753295f9a_story.html?utm_term=.8413e226154e

I think they should be renamed to the Pork Barrels. Fits that they are in DC, and the fans that dress up like pigs can keep the tradition alive.

[Millhouse]

(01-31-2018, 06:34 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I think they should be renamed to the Pork Barrels. Fits that they are in DC, and the fans that dress up like pigs can keep the tradition alive.

Pretty sure that would offend vegans, and some vegetarians.

[StLucieBengal]

(01-31-2018, 06:12 PM)bfine32 Wrote: What about the tongue from the older UK logo?

Racist!

[BmorePat87]

(01-31-2018, 03:42 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: And this has what to do with a sports team logo?

Does the fact that the company in question is a sports team mean we don't apply the same standards we've applied in the past over logos that are racist caricatures? 

[*bfine32*]

(01-31-2018, 06:29 PM)Millhouse Wrote: I stand corrected by this. According to a Washington Post poll back in 2016, 9/10 Indians weren't offended by the word Redskins. And per article it says that has remained unchanged since 2004.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/new-poll-finds-9-in-10-native-americans-arent-offended-by-redskins-name/2016/05/18/3ea11cfa-161a-11e6-924d-838753295f9a_story.html?utm_term=.8413e226154e

This brings up an interesting dynamic: If a population doesn't consider a term used to describe them to be a slur, can it be a slur?

For instance was a survey taken of a population of Native Americans when Trump uttered Pocahontas or did it seem to upset more middle-aged white men?

[StLucieBengal]

(01-31-2018, 07:54 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Does the fact that the company in question is a sports team mean we don't apply the same standards we've applied in the past over logos that are racist caricatures? 

A menu for a restaurant vs a major league baseball team logo are quite different.

[BmorePat87]

(01-31-2018, 08:35 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: A menu for a restaurant vs a major league baseball team logo are quite different.

Yea, one is more widespread. Some would say it makes it worse.