College Admissions Cheating Racket

[*michaelsean*]

(03-14-2019, 12:41 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Does this mean Aunt Becky is off Fuller House?

Cancelled already.  Shut up, it doesn't matter how I knew.

[Dill]

Some liberals have gone so far as to connect this college cheating scandal to the unearned security clearances given the "privileged" Ivanka and Jared. https://thehill.com/homenews/house/433944-dem-lawmaker-compares-college-cheating-scandal-to-ivanka-and-jareds-security

Red herring?

For those who still don't get it yet, Hannity made it clear last night that this is a HOLLYWOOD LIBERAL ELITE scandal.

It has no implications for conservative or right wing rich CPAC donors who may have bought their kids into Harvard or Penn.

The liberal elites are always talking about making the system fairer and responsive to minorities and even lawbreaking illegal immigrants, but when it comes to their own kids there is a double standard. They were "rigging the system," taking places from hardworking kids who had real athletic ability and worked to gain their academic ability.

Hannity: The elite take college spots from the deserving
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/sean-hannity-college-admissions-scandal-shows-the-new-faces-of-greed-corruption-and-selfishness

Fox's Wulfson took Don Lemon to task for falsely connecting Donald Trump to the scandal. Sheer Trump hate drove Lemon to claim that Trump's privileged upbringing placed him in the class of those who benefit from radical disparity in wealth in the U.S.

CNN’s Don Lemon ties Donald Trump to college admissions cheating scheme
https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/cnns-don-lemon-ties-trump-to-college-admissions-cheating-scheme

Hannity's staff was also quick to post this squib on Senator Elizabeth Warren:
WARREN: I Have ‘ZERO’ Sympathy for Parents of Children Who Cheated Their Way into College
https://www.hannity.com/media-room/warren-i-have-zero-sympathy-for-parents-of-children-who-cheated-their-way-into-college/
With the reminder that she claimed to be an American Indian on her Texas State Bar Registration card.

[Vas Deferens]

(03-14-2019, 12:23 PM)Benton Wrote: Id be surprised if they really realized much. Their parents probably told them that's the way it's always been, the socialists just changed the rules all the sudden for quotas. 

Don't care if they knew or not.  Should be a good wake up call.  Hope their bills go unpaid, they suffer severe emotional trauma and have to rebuild from the gutter.  As long as they are able to pull themselves up by the bootstraps, they'll be dandy

[Dill]

(03-14-2019, 10:19 AM)GMDino Wrote: Our daughter didn't go to college.  She got her certificate at the tech school with her high school and got a job. 

This is why we really can't mix socially, Dino. My son got an AA degree from IUP, which is the LARGEST state school in PA. 

What would we have to talk about, really?

[*michaelsean*]

(03-14-2019, 01:17 PM)Dill Wrote: This is why we really can't mix socially, Dino. My son got an AA degree from IUP, which is the LARGEST state school in PA. 

What would we have to talk about, really?

I know you want us to ask how could that be?  Penn State is so much bigger, but I'm not gonna.  

[Dill]

(03-14-2019, 10:27 AM)michaelsean Wrote: My son is doing some ACT training, but it's basically because that's how a lot of the scholarships/grants are awarded.  We didn't do it with my daughterand she didn't score too well.  But she did graduate cum laude which shows you a little something about the tests.  My son either way will most assuredly score higher, maybe much higher, on the test and will probably not graduate with honors.  A lot of college has to do with the work you put in.  I remember she said she was at the library studying on a Sunday from 9am to 7 pm.  I didn't study that much in a semester.  

This shows us a little something about your daughter.  Not a knock on the tests.

(03-14-2019, 12:08 PM)michaelsean Wrote: One of the schools was Texas.  "You had to cheat to get into Texas?"

If we are talking about the University of Texas, Austin, then we are talking about a VERY good state school with a 36% acceptance rate. One of the highest ranked in the nation for undergrad education.  Like Michigan, it has been a focus of suits and access politics for decades.

[Dill]

(03-14-2019, 01:22 PM)michaelsean Wrote: I know you want us to ask how could that be?  Penn State is so much bigger, but I'm not gonna.  

LOL, but you did.

Penn State is not part of the Passhe system. It is not at state school. 

Rather it is sometimes designated "state-supported" or "state-related," like the U of Pittsburgh.

IUP is the LARGEST PA state school in terms of enrollment, and probably in campus size as well.

[Bengalzona]

(03-14-2019, 11:55 AM)Millhouse Wrote: If she have said Michigan, I would have understood. But I dont know much about ASU, but I'm assuming it's a nice warm weather school with hot chicks.

ASU is okay. It is your typical massive state-run university, much like OSU. For me, it is more the fact that they would single out a school to criticize as "not being good enough".

From what I understand, Michigan actually has some pretty impressive academic credentials for a public university.

[fredtoast]

(03-14-2019, 11:39 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Yes, equating an entire race and gender with a negative is quite the same thing as doing so with a micro subset of humanity easily distinguishable from everyone else.

I am sure you are trying to be sarcastic, but you are actually 100% correct.

Passing harsh judgement on Hollywood stars because a few Hollywood stars were involved with this is just as stupid as passing harsh judgement on white males because a few white males were involved.

[Dill]

(03-14-2019, 10:08 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: This leads us into the discussion of the for profit education and the push for college. It makes nearly twice as much a year as the NFL. We over test and then we over pay for these shitty tests. Then we tell kids that all that matters at the end is one more final shitty test to get into college.

Not sure how this leads to "for-profit" education, which from me designates schools like the University of Phoenix. Most people enrolling in those schools do so for convenience (near home, online offerings). A majority are adult learners too.  Most such schools don't even require SATs and accept a GED.

(03-14-2019, 10:18 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: There is some hope in this realm, at least, that there will be a trend coming of universities making the ACT/SAT thing optional. University of Chicago made the announcement that they were going that route, last year, and The Chronicle put up an article talking about the potential implications. I don't know how long this trend will take to get solid traction or even if it will, but I think there would be a tremendous benefit in going that route.

We, at JMU, assess the shit out of everything. I mean, between out Office of Institutional Research and our Center for Assessment & Research Studies, we are constantly testing things out in an effort to improve education. I am someone that loves quantifying anything I can because I understand that sort of data better. But even I understand that you the sort of testing that is done by the ACTs/SATs is a poor representation of the what sort of student the person is. The university recognizes these flaws as well and does not require the test scores for admission.

Throw in on top of that fraud risks involved and the inadequate control mechanisms and it really is just sickening. Even more so for public institutions that have a responsibility to the public beyond that of private institutions.

I don't agree that SAT and ACT tests are "shitty"; I think they measure important abilities and learning. Very rare that someone who does well on SATs bombs in college because s/he "wasn't ready" for the work. (This from a supporter of Affirmative Action who thinks higher ed should not simply be a sorting bin for class position.)

I do agree with you both, however, that, given the evident competition for places, better controls need to be in place. Though I have to wonder what assessment will look like if such tests become widely "optional" and administrators have to sort through 5,000 applications.

I also agree that tests don't measure everything.  Writing samples tell a great deal about student ability and level, and great predictors of student success, but testers don't like them because they are time-consuming to evaluate.  Also I think that age should be taken into account--30 year olds with children generally being more focused and responsible than 18 year olds.

Also there are people who don't test well. I agree that sometimes there is good reason to rely on other than quantitative measures, like a "portfolio" accrued during the Junior-Senior year of HS.  I also think that "not testing well" is something people need to view, not as a permanent learning disability that everyone must accommodate, but something they must work on (with the school's help, if need be).

[GMDino]

(03-14-2019, 01:17 PM)Dill Wrote: This is why we really can't mix socially, Dino. My son got an AA degree from IUP, which is the LARGEST state school in PA. 

What would we have to talk about, really?

Ha! IUP?  So he partied...a lot.  

[Dill]

(03-14-2019, 01:54 PM)GMDino Wrote: Ha! IUP?  So he partied...a lot.  

Ok the largest party school in PA.  And yes, he partied some, and in our own home, to be frank.

[BmorePat87]

(03-14-2019, 01:54 PM)Dill Wrote: Not sure how this leads to "for-profit" education, which from me designates schools like the University of Phoenix. Most people enrolling in those schools do so for convenience (near home, online offerings). A majority are adult learners too.  Most such schools don't even require SATs and accept a GED.

Post secondary schools is one part of the industry. Testing is another.

[GMDino]

(03-14-2019, 01:57 PM)Dill Wrote: Ok the largest party school in PA.  And yes, he partied some, and in our own home, to be frank.

IUP has quite the rep that way.  My nephew plans on going there too.

Our son isn't much of a partier...yet.

[BmorePat87]

(03-14-2019, 10:18 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: There is some hope in this realm, at least, that there will be a trend coming of universities making the ACT/SAT thing optional. University of Chicago made the announcement that they were going that route, last year, and The Chronicle put up an article talking about the potential implications. I don't know how long this trend will take to get solid traction or even if it will, but I think there would be a tremendous benefit in going that route.

We, at JMU, assess the shit out of everything. I mean, between out Office of Institutional Research and our Center for Assessment & Research Studies, we are constantly testing things out in an effort to improve education. I am someone that loves quantifying anything I can because I understand that sort of data better. But even I understand that you the sort of testing that is done by the ACTs/SATs is a poor representation of the what sort of student the person is. The university recognizes these flaws as well and does not require the test scores for admission.

Throw in on top of that fraud risks involved and the inadequate control mechanisms and it really is just sickening. Even more so for public institutions that have a responsibility to the public beyond that of private institutions.

GPA is a far better indicator of post secondary school success than SAT scores. Another move is to drop AP. 

With regards to assessment, when assessments are targeted and used to guide, they're effective. A better move for schools would be adopting a portfolio based assessment process that  is on going and requires self reflection.

(03-14-2019, 10:19 AM)GMDino Wrote: Our daughter didn't go to college.  She got her certificate at the tech school with her high school and got a job.  Our son will go in two years, but he has opted for the local campus to save money on travel and room & board.  But he isn't stressing about it.  He knows he will get the education he needs for his career path.

Long ago I told them both that college isn't for everyone and that a skill can be better.  I also told them they didn't have to be number one in their class and involved to the gills to get into a good college but that I would rather they learned something and tried their best and did things they enjoyed in high school rather than kill themselves over it.  One of the few things they listened to me about!  

That some colleges now(I graduated almost 30 years ago) are this ridiculous to even apply for is sad to me.  I didn't even need my SAT to get in back then.  the school I applied to (I applied to the one school I wanted to go to) only looked at SATs if they have an overload of applicants.  I took it anyway, but even that I didn't go to the training classes and all that crap.  I suppose higher education is just ANOTHER aspect of American society that has gotten out of hand due to the money to be made by some.

We need some hard reforms, but we need buy in from everyone in the community. 

[*michaelsean*]

(03-14-2019, 01:27 PM)Dill Wrote: This shows us a little something about your daughter.  Not a knock on the tests.



If we are talking about the University of Texas, Austin, then we are talking about a VERY good state school with a 36% acceptance rate. One of the highest ranked in the nation for undergrad education.  Like Michigan, it has been a focus of suits and access politics for decades.

I'm just saying that it's hard to predict how somebody will do based on standardized tests.

Oh and don't go getting all Matt on me.  For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? But for Texas?

[Dill]

(03-14-2019, 01:35 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: ASU is okay. It is your typical massive state-run university, much like OSU. For me, it is more the fact that they would single out a school to criticize as "not being good enough".

From what I understand, Michigan actually has some pretty impressive academic credentials for a public university.

Actually, it is one of the best universities in the world.

It is 18th in the US News global rankings, tied with Imperial College London.
https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/rankings?page=2

And 15th in the US, according the Times higher ed national rankings. (Ohio State is 56th for comparison; IUP is 230-301, with a 91% acceptance rate)
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/student/best-universities/best-universities-united-states

It has a 28% acceptance rate, with in state tuition for Michigan residents comparable to other state universities. 
Not easy to get into, but one of the best deals in the world if you do.

(03-13-2019, 11:28 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: One of the women indicted claimed they "had" to do it so that her kid wouldn't end up at a school "like ASU".

She's an asshat.

Jeezus. You'd have to be pretty out of touch/unaware to let that slip onto the public record.

This goes back to what I was saying earlier about the cultural capital that elite schools endow on their students.

[*michaelsean*]

(03-14-2019, 02:06 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: GPA is a far better indicator of post secondary school success than SAT scores. Another move is to drop AP. 

With regards to assessment, when assessments are targeted and used to guide, they're effective. A better move for schools would be adopting a portfolio based assessment process that  is on going and requires self reflection.


We need some hard reforms, but we need buy in from everyone in the community. 

Drop AP?  Then how will kids have a 6.3 GPA based on the school's say so?

[Dill]

(03-14-2019, 02:06 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: GPA is a far better indicator of post secondary school success than SAT scores. Another move is to drop AP.

Just curious.  Why would dropping AP be a good move?  Don't such courses provide students with more in-depth skills and knowledge--good for those who want to go to college?

[Bengalzona]

(03-14-2019, 10:27 AM)michaelsean Wrote: My son is doing some ACT training, but it's basically because that's how a lot of the scholarships/grants are awarded.  We didn't do it with my daughterand she didn't score too well.  But she did graduate cum laude which shows you a little something about the tests.  My son either way will most assuredly score higher, maybe much higher, on the test and will probably not graduate with honors.  A lot of college has to do with the work you put in.  I remember she said she was at the library studying on a Sunday from 9am to 7 pm.  I didn't study that much in a semester.  

Old war story time....

When I was in high school, my grades were pretty mediocre. My parents were fine if I brought home a C (in fact, they didn't care much if I brought home a D) and I never thought of myself as particularly intelligent. So, there was little internal or external pressure to achieve. And my grades reflected that. I do recall a couple of teachers over the years telling us that if we really wanted to go to college, we could. There were schools that would accept you even with mediocre grades and ways you could find to pay the tuition. I noted that and thought that I would like to do that someday, But I didn't really have plans or expectations.

Because of my interest groups, particularly music, I ended up hanging out with a lot of the 'smart' kids in school. I was dating this one girl and I remember the day when they posted the final grade point averages for seniors to decided who would be valedictorian, etc. She was really excited about this because she was like in the top ten. Then she suggested that we look up where I ended up. Reading far, far down the list, we eventually found me somewhere in the 'two-point-whatever' territory. She looked at me and said, "Gee, Mike. I thought you were smarter than that." (Pam wasn't much in the 'sensitivity' department). What she said struck me. For the first time, I began to wonder if maybe I could be smarter and if I could have gotten better grades.

But my die was cast by senior year. There a recession and you couldn't even buy a job, especially as a kid out of high school with no connections. So I enlisted with the thought of getting some money and some life experience. "Who knows", I thought, "maybe I'll like it and stay in."

In basic training, they pulled me and some of the other guys out one day and told us we had tested high on the ASVAB and, if we wanted to, we could apply to this West Point Prep School (basically a one year school the Army runs for people who could possibly go to West Point, but didn't have high enough grades, test scores, etc.). As an exhausted recruit in basic, the thought of doing something like that seemed very appealing. So I put my name in the hat. When I got to AIT, they got back to me and wanted me to take the ACT and SAT. I had taken the ACT in high school and got mediocre scores. So I went out and got some of those test prep books and began studying like a madman during CQ watch and what little free time I had. I got my results back and they were really great (something like a 28 and a 1520, respectively).  Once again, I was shocked. I began to think, "Maybe I'm not so dumb and maybe if I actually work, then I could get good grades."

I didn't get into the West Point Prep. I made the second cut (they cut 90% in the first cut), but ultimately failed on the last cut. But at that point, it didn't matter to me. I was determined that once I finished my three-year hitch, I was going to go to college and see what I could do.

There's probably a few lessons here that others could take away. In my case, the college tests were a good thing because I sort of did them in a way you are supposed to: study hard for them and review your results to see where you stand compared to where you want to be.

Another lesson: sometimes (maybe often) someone just needs some different input to think of themselves in a different way and become something better. In my experience, the difference between people's intellectual abilities isn't all that large. It certainly isn't as large as some people make it out to be (primarily due to our competitive society and peoples' insecurity). We live in a world where people are real quick to just "write people off" for any reason. Not enough raising people up, IMO.