Comey's opening statement is out.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(06-08-2017, 06:38 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Not looking at this from a "get Trump!" point of view. But I do suspect there are other Americans involved. They may not be associated with Trump and the campaign.

I do agree that this will take awhile. Years rather than months.

Can't be... I heard it from a "reliable source" that Trump would be impeached in no time. Bunches of threads and hundreds of replies.

[Bengalzona]

(06-08-2017, 06:59 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: Wow.  I never considered that.  Can't really wrap my head around that.  That would astonish me, but I suppose it's entirely possible that Hillary and Trump were so polarizing that "insiders" were knowingly or unwittingly influenced by foreign agents.

I'm still not fully appreciating the irony that Russia did to us what we do all over the world.  Or the perhaps selective outrage over Russia trying to influence our elections when compared to the repeated damaging hackings from China.

Another question I'm fascinated by....if the CIA had tools to replicate hacking signatures of foreign powers, could we really be certain that, say, China or NK aren't behind all this?  Or perhaps, more accurately, Russia did not act in this alone?  If you remember, cyberwarfare was an active point of emphasis early on in the Obama administration - I don't know if we are a leader now, but at one point I think we were definitely behind the curve.  And that's all a deep, deep rabit hole with Israel and Iran also having serious cyber capabilities.

Snowden, the Shadow Brokers, Wikileaks, etc. have really screwed us over.

I can't forget how many people were declaring Snowden a "hero" back in 2013. To me, he is a total traitor: no different than Aldrich Ames, Robert Hanssen, or John Walker, Jr. Fifteen years ago, Putin and the Russians could not have dreamed of doing what they are doing today. The fact that they have arrived at this point traces totally back to Snowden. Our children will suffer for what he has done.

I'll leave that at that.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

(06-08-2017, 05:57 PM)ballsofsteel Wrote: Hello. All this Comey drama isn't important. The commander in tweets is going down, its only a matter of time. The committee investigating Trumps campaign and ties with Russia will catch one of Trumps underlings perjure themselves.
Instead of going to jail for 10 years, they will spill all the beans about Trumps collusion.  

Is that what you think might happen or are you hoping it happens?

Because I see it a different way.

I see the DOJ going after Comey and Lynch now and with Comey being such a wimp, he will roll on who put him up to this. Lynch will roll on Bill saying he wanted her to help out his wife.

Also, do you really think this Reality Winner, 25 year old girl just decided on her own to leak classified government documents? I don't think so, she was put up to it by someone...could be Clinton, could be Obama or it could be some schmuck she looks up to at a diner she frequents.

Comey opened Pandoras Box with this open to the public testimony, I wonder what he said or will say in those closed sessions.

[JustWinBaby]

(06-09-2017, 12:57 AM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: I see the DOJ going after Comey ...

Also, do you really think this Reality Winner, 25 year old girl just decided on her own to leak classified government documents...

Trump needs to let go of the Comey thing.  He said damaging things about Trump, but Trump himself has done far worse to himself.  Otherwise, this largely helped Trump...With the right spin and messaging, Comey's testimony could be a gift to Trump, but instead they're heading back into the mud to carry out some inexplicable personal vendetta.

As for Reality Winner....yes, I do think she did that on her own.  Clinton is done - she's not going to be POTUS from anything she can do to Trump, so why bother?  With respect to such conspiracy theories, you have to ask yourself what they have to gain from taking such great personal risk.

[JustWinBaby]

(06-09-2017, 12:50 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: The fact that they have arrived at this point traces totally back to Snowden. Our children will suffer for what he has done.

I have mixed feelings.  I think Snowden did an important job as whistle blower, while at the same time being reckless with the extent of what he disclosed.  Now the more recent leak (not Snowden) certainly gave ideas and blueprints to average hackers, but I doubt Russia or China state-sponsored cyber picked up many new tricks.

I'd add simply that, unlike most Libertarians, I don't believe privacy and these types of tools can't co-exist. Just about every tech has the potential for good and bad, and you can't shun advancement out of fear of abuse.

But I think it's more than a bit of a leap to lay this on Snowden.  As far as I know, he didn't deliver any "tools" to Russia, and I fully believe Russia (and other countries) were already developing their cyber warfare without Snowden's disclosures.  And the spying and meddling thing has absolutely nothing to do with Snowden but has been SOP on the world stage for decades.

[Bengalzona]

(06-09-2017, 12:57 AM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Also, do you really think this Reality Winner, 25 year old girl just decided on her own to leak classified government documents?

(06-09-2017, 01:39 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: As for Reality Winner....yes, I do think she did that on her own.  

What I want to know is.... what kind of moron approves a TS clearance for someone named "Reality Winner"?

Seriously?!?!?!

[Bengalzona]

(06-09-2017, 01:44 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: I have mixed feelings.  I think Snowden did an important job as whistle blower, while at the same time being reckless with the extent of what he disclosed.  Now the more recent leak (not Snowden) certainly gave ideas and blueprints to average hackers, but I doubt Russia or China state-sponsored cyber picked up many new tricks.

I'd add simply that, unlike most Libertarians, I don't believe privacy and these types of tools can't co-exist.  Just about every tech has the potential for good and bad, and you can't shun advancement out of fear of abuse.

But I think it's more than a bit of a leap to lay this on Snowden.  As far as I know, he didn't deliver any "tools" to Russia, and I fully believe Russia (and other countries) were already developing their cyber warfare without Snowden's disclosures.  And the spying and meddling thing has absolutely nothing to do with Snowden but has been SOP on the world stage for decades.

My problem with Snowden is his actions in leaking the information and the way it was traipsed around to foreign governments, rather than his whistle-blowing (i.e. If he had stayed in the States and leaked it to U.S. media, I would have had little issue with it). There is no way I can be convinced that his deal to stay in Russia was not contingent upon release of information... all of it. And he had a lot of information, most of top secret, which the government cannot even disclose to the public. We are told that much of it was concerning our cyber-spying.

Aldrich Ames.

[JustWinBaby]

(06-09-2017, 03:08 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: What I want to know is.... what kind of moron approves a TS clearance for someone named "Reality Winner"?

Seriously?!?!?!

Well, she was a 6-yr veteran of the Air Force, where she was a linguist who spoke 3 languages.  That seems like a pretty reasonable qualification to me.

[Bengalzona]

(06-09-2017, 03:34 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: Well, she was a 6-yr veteran of the Air Force, where she was a linguist who spoke 3 languages.  That seems like a pretty reasonable qualification to me.

A start. But how about a background check?

[ballsofsteel]

(06-09-2017, 12:57 AM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Is that what you think might happen or are you hoping it happens?

Because I see it a different way.

I see the DOJ going after Comey and Lynch now and with Comey being such a wimp, he will roll on who put him up to this. Lynch will roll on Bill saying he wanted her to help out his wife.

Also, do you really think this Reality Winner, 25 year old girl just decided on her own to leak classified government documents? I don't think so, she was put up to it by someone...could be Clinton, could be Obama or it could be some schmuck she looks up to at a diner she frequents.

Comey opened Pandoras Box with this open to the public testimony, I wonder what he said or will say in those closed sessions.

"Is that what you think might happen or are you hoping it happens?"
At this point I don't care anymore. Even if Trump goes down what are we left with? Better but not much.

Comey screwed alot of things up with his in-decisions. He should of said no comment until the "investigation" was completely over. While he was blabbing about Hillary during the campaign Trump said he was a super star. Once he turned the spot light on Trumps campaign, he was a no good SOB.

"she was put up to it by someone...could be Clinton, could be Obama "
This sounds like something Trump would tweet.

[BmorePat87]

If your new sources says this was a win for Trump or if your news source says this was a win for Democrats, you need a new news source.

That's my takeaway.

[SunsetBengal]

Most dubious fact revealed in yesterday's inquiry..

[Arturo Bandini]

In France the left wing exploded and died one month ago and the death of the right wing is set for this weekend.

there's no left and right no more ... And everybody is feeling better.

And since they have nothing to boo and criticize for being left or right, old politicians have nothing more to say.

[*michaelsean*]

(06-09-2017, 08:54 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Most dubious fact revealed in yesterday's inquiry..

I think she just wanted it transferred to the Federal Bureau of Matters.

[GMDino]

(06-08-2017, 05:03 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote: So, short of evidence you don't think they will do anything?  I would agree.  We had more evidence in all the Obama scandals yet never had a special prosecutor for a single one.

(06-09-2017, 12:57 AM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Is that what you think might happen or are you hoping it happens?

Because I see it a different way.

I see the DOJ going after Comey and Lynch now and with Comey being such a wimp, he will roll on who put him up to this. Lynch will roll on Bill saying he wanted her to help out his wife.

Also, do you really think this Reality Winner, 25 year old girl just decided on her own to leak classified government documents? I don't think so, she was put up to it by someone...could be Clinton, could be Obama or it could be some schmuck she looks up to at a diner she frequents.

Comey opened Pandoras Box with this open to the public testimony, I wonder what he said or will say in those closed sessions.

Yep, "evidence". 

(06-09-2017, 01:39 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: Trump needs to let go of the Comey thing.  He said damaging things about Trump, but Trump himself has done far worse to himself.  Otherwise, this largely helped Trump...With the right spin and messaging, Comey's testimony could be a gift to Trump, but instead they're heading back into the mud to carry out some inexplicable personal vendetta.

To the bold: Exactly.  Facts, what was said, who to believe will be less important that the spin and the messaging.

As to the rest: Have you ever seen or heard anything fro Trump?  He can't let the slightest slight go.  You think he'll let Comey calling him a liar go?

Of course if we give him a chance he may change and grow into the job he said would be easy with how smart he is. 

[GMDino]

https://thinkprogress.org/ryan-defends-trump-3c48c4d36573

Quote:While former FBI Director James Comey testified before Congress on Thursday, House Speaker Paul Ryan (R-WI) attempted to defend the president by claiming that Trump doesn’t know what he’s doing.


In his weekly press conference Thursday morning, Ryan tried to distract from the blockbuster hearing by giving a presentation on House Republicans’ legislative accomplishments this year. When asked about Comey’s testimony in which he claimed that Trump asked him for loyalty and to drop the investigation into former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn, Ryan claimed that Trump didn’t know better.


“The president is new at this,” Ryan said. “He’s new to government. And so he probably wasn’t steeped into the long going protocols that established the relationships between DOJ, FBI, and White Houses.”



When a reporter questioned why that’s an “acceptable excuse,” given that Trump has a staff and counsel that should have been informed, Ryan reiterated that Trump did not know what he was doing.



“He’s new at government,” Ryan said. “Therefore I think he is learning as he goes.”


The comments come after an interview Wednesday in which Ryan said that it is “obviously” not appropriate for Trump to ask the FBI director for loyalty.[/size]


But on Thursday, he tried to shift attention to the part of Comey’s testimony that Republicans think reflects favorably on Trump. Ryan claimed he understands why Trump would be frustrated “when the FBI tells him on three different occasions he’s not under investigation,” yet speculation continues.

The Speaker is not the only prominent Republican lawmaker that is scrambling to defend the president this week. The GOP and Republican National Committee are both running with the idea that Comey’s testimony “will confirm what Democrats and the media have been denying for weeks: That Comey did in fact tell the president three times that he was not under investigation.”[/size]



Trump himself backed away from that defense early Thursday, deciding instead to dispute key portions of the testimony, like the allegations that he asked for loyalty and that he asked Comey to let go of the Flynn probe.[/size]

As I said yesterday: Deflect to "he wasn't under investigation" and deny everything else.  Now they can blame the "smart" guy who said this would "easy" for not being able to listen to the people around him.  And if anyone acts surprised that Trump acts that way I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

[*michaelsean*]

(06-09-2017, 09:50 AM)GMDino Wrote: https://thinkprogress.org/ryan-defends-trump-3c48c4d36573



As I said yesterday: Deflect to "he wasn't under investigation" and deny everything else.  Now they can blame the "smart" guy who said this would "easy" for not being able to listen to the people around him.  And if anyone acts surprised that Trump acts that way I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

Is that like trying, and in this case I really mean trying, to highlight the parts you think are important?

[Dill]

(06-09-2017, 04:43 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: A start. But how about a background check?

That is the essence of any clearance--not whether the subject has been in the military or whatever.

But I am thinking she must have had SOME level of clearance already to be doing what she was doing.

[GMDino]

https://newrepublic.com/article/143184/trump-ignorant-guilty-hes-ignorant-president

Quote:If Trump Is Too Ignorant to Be Guilty, He’s Too Ignorant to Be President
The Republican response to James Comey's testimony is the weakest defense yet of the president, and as damning as any indictment.



The Republican Party has a serious James Comey problem. On the face of it, the former FBI director’s compelling testimony to the Senate—the opening statement of which was released Wednesday—of an attempted obstruction of justice by President Donald Trump, is one that merits further investigation. But the branches of government tasked with the constitutional duty of holding Trump responsible for such acts, the House of Representatives and the Senate, are controlled by Republican legislators who live in terror of the damage any Trump scandal would do to their party and political careers.



The Republican National Committee has prepared a set of talking points to answer Comey’s testimony on Thursday, but they’re notably incoherent. “President Trump feels completely and totally vindicated by former FBI Director James Comey’s opening testimony and is eager to move forward,” reads the first of the “Top Takeaways,” but a few lines later we’re told: “Director Comey has a long history of blatant contradictions and misstatements.” So is Comey a reliable enough character witness to vindicate Trump, or someone who can’t be trusted? No wonder one Republican told Politico’s Alex Isenstadt that the talking points come from people “living in an alternative reality.”

If the Comey testimony is presenting a problem for the RNC, Republican politicians and sympathetic pundits are coming up with their own separate apologia for Trump: They acknowledge that Trump’s behavior might look fishy, but argue his actions were those of a novice politician who obstructed justice out of sheer stupidity. Ignorant of the basic understanding of the rule of law and the independence of law enforcement, Trump blundered into shady behavior with no malicious intent.

“The Comey memo paints a picture of a political neophyte frustrated with and unaware of the way Washington works,” Matthew Continetti, editor of the Washington Free Beacon, wrote on Twitter. New York Times columnist Ross Douthat offered a variation of this argument: “Trump’s weird behavior re: Comey seems to reflect a man accustomed to being a boss, unprepared to be a president.” Oklahoma Senator James Lankford, in an interview with Fox News, also played up Trump’s lack of understanding of Washington. “America did not select a Washington guy or a politician,” Lankford said. “They hired a New York business guy.”

New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, one of Trump’s strongest champions last year, made this case with characteristic bravado. “What people don’t understand is that they elected an outsider president,” Christie told MSNBC. “They elected someone who had never been inside of government and quite frankly didn’t spend a lot of time interacting with government except at the local level. And so the idea of the way that the tradition of these agencies, it’s not something that he’s ever been steeped in. So I think over the course of time, what you’re seeing is a president who is now very publicly learning about the way people react to what he considers to be normal New York City conversation.”

In one way, this is a very clever rhetorical ploy. Trump’s opponents in Washington, and much of the public, already believe he’s a birdbrain who doesn’t understand government. Often liberals will go further and argue that Trump is either fundamentally stupid or suffers from some sort of cognitive impairment. The argument that Trump potentially committed obstruction of justice out of sheer idiocy could win over people from well beyond pro-Trump and Never Trump Republicans.

Yet in the long run, the position that Trump is ignorant doesn’t really help the president. After all, both Comey’s statement and many accounts in the press conclusively demonstrate that those around Trump have tried, with great difficulty and little success, to explain how government works. Here is Comey’s account of some instruction he offered Trump over dinner on January 27:

Quote:At one point, I explained why it was so important that the FBI and the Department of Justice be independent of the White House. I said it was a paradox: Throughout history, some Presidents have decided that because “problems” come from Justice, they should try to hold the Department close. But blurring those boundaries ultimately makes the problems worse by undermining public trust in the institutions and their work.

Comey had to say this, of course, because Trump was overstepping those very boundaries. Comey’s testimony makes clear that if Trump is ignorant, he is willfully so. There are many other issues where Trump has stuck to his guns despite advice from his staff and other informed people. He hired Michael Flynn as national security advisor despite warnings from President Barack Obama and Deputy Attorney General Sally Yates. Comey’s statement confirms that Trump continued to go to bat for Flynn even after scandal forced Flynn to resign. The day after he resigned, Trump allegedly told Comey, “I hope you can see your way clear to letting this go, to letting Flynn go. He is a good guy. I hope you can let this go.”
Trump’s stubbornness in defending Flynn indicates the real problem with the theory of Trump as the ignorant innocent. Someone who was only operating from a position of insufficient knowledge might make random mistakes, but Trump’s errors all point in one direction: a desire to clamp down on the Russia investigation with a particular focus on protecting Flynn. This obsession with Flynn makes it more plausible that Trump is operating from a position not of ignorance, but of culpability.

Let’s accept, for a moment, the contention that Trump’s mind doesn’t grasp how government works. Isn’t that a good argument for removing him from office? You can’t be impeached for ignorance, but Republican leaders, if they really thought Trump was lacking in the basic knowledge necessary for the job, could approach him to encourage a resignation. Or they could pass laws to limit his powers. Or they could support an opponent to primary him. It’s unlikely that Republicans will do any of these things because the idea of Trump as an airhead innocent is just a political tool for them, not cause for constitutional alarm.

So while to some he may have appeared to be the perfect outsider, instead he is exactly what he seemed to be on the campaign trail: Stuck in doing things "his way" and unwilling to learn how to do things within the framework of the government that helps avoid things like needing a special prosecutor to determine how badly things were done.

[Dill]

(06-09-2017, 09:50 AM)GMDino Wrote: https://thinkprogress.org/ryan-defends-trump-3c48c4d36573

But on Thursday, he tried to shift attention to the part of Comey’s testimony that Republicans think reflects favorably on Trump. Ryan claimed he understands why Trump would be frustrated “when the FBI tells him on three different occasions he’s not under investigation,” yet speculation continues.

I am neither a millionaire businessman nor a career politician, yet I understand perfectly why I might not be under investigation while an investigation into people around me continues.

I also understand that if I am not guilty of anything then best let the investigation go forward and clear me. To interfere makes me look guilty or stupid or both.  I would understand this even better were I surrounded by a staff of professional legal/political counsel, making me even more likely, were I president, to let the investigation go and get on top of my responsibilities--like nominating people for the still unfilled executive branch positions.