Confronting Racism

[Vlad]

(02-07-2016, 05:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I was saying that they only control a disproportionately small amount of the wealth, power and political control in this country, so it is lame for a white person to claim he is oppressed.

I am sure it could be a problem in the rap music industry, but otherwise they uasully don't have the power to oppress you.

And I am just talking about here in the United States.  I have already agreed that all races are racists, but that is different from having the power to oppress.

So now blacks are being oppressed by white power?

More inane white guilt bullshit.

[fredtoast]

(02-07-2016, 10:53 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: Yet those races do have the power to oppress and they do... 

Not here in the United States where you are trying to play your victim card.

[Sovereign Nation]

(02-08-2016, 11:02 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Not here in the United States where you are trying to play your victim card.

Typical.  Trying to control the parameters.

Fred, I want you to take a trip to SA.  When it was controlled by whites, not a bad place to be.  Now blacks are in control.  They have attack the whites, it isn't safe to be white there, and it is in ruin.

Do you think that if blacks were in control here that it would be any different than SA?

[fredtoast]

(02-08-2016, 11:23 AM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: Typical.  Trying to control the parameters.

Fred, I want you to take a trip to SA.  When it was controlled by whites, not a bad place to be.  Now blacks are in control.  They have attack the whites, it isn't safe to be white there, and it is in ruin.

Do you think that if blacks were in control here that it would be any different than SA?

If you lived in south Africa then I would allow you to use your victim card as a white person.  So we can drop that line of argument.  But let me ask you this.  What did the black people in South Africa think about the country during apartheid?  I mean, I am guessing the Jim Crowe South was also a nice place for a white guy to hang out. 

And I remember that white people committed the greatest acts of genocide in human history in the 1940's, but that did not mean white people everywhere were like that.

[Brownshoe]

(02-08-2016, 11:57 AM)fredtoast Wrote: If you lived in south Africa then I would allow you to use your victim card as a white person.  So we can drop that line of argument.  But let me ask you this.  What did the black people in South Africa think about the country during apartheid?  I mean, I am guessing the Jim Crowe South was also a nice place for a white guy to hang out. 

And I remember that white people committed the greatest acts of genocide in human history in the 1940's, but that did not mean white people everywhere were like that.

Who cares about just the 40s? Let's talk about all time, and it's easily Mao Zedong who had the greatest acts of genocide. He had at least twice the murder count of Hitler.

Then you talk about the Jim Crow south when this country had a MILLION times worse of a race problem. This country is nothing like it was back when the Jim Crow laws were created 140 years ago.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(02-05-2016, 05:37 PM)Benton Wrote: I'm not seeing it. Being a young male in a car — regardless of race — is going to get you pulled over more than being a middle age woman in a mini-van.

Not to mention, how many of those four times in 36 hours were at night (when arguably you couldn't tell the difference in race)? At night you can't see the race, but you can see it's a car or a mini-van.

Like I said, racism exists. But if the guy had been cruising around in a mini-van I doubt it would have been four times. And if he'd been older, I doubly doubt it.

I have to agree with you here.

This is not an apples to apples comparison, and not enough details about when the boy was pulled over and what kind of car he has.
A busted taillight at 2:30 am on a Friday or Saturday night is not the same as having one and driving around during daylight hours.

[GMDino]

(02-08-2016, 02:05 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I have to agree with you here.

This is not an apples to apples comparison, and not enough details about when the boy was pulled over and what kind of car he has.
A busted taillight at 2:30 am on a Friday or Saturday night is not the same as having one and driving around during daylight hours.

Any reason to pull a vehicle over after midnight is gonna be good enough.

My wife and I got pulled over for the light above her license plate being out.  We weren't driving a sports car...just a beater she would take back and forth to work it was 1:30am and I had gone through a yellow light.  State cop was at the intersection when I went through.  I thought he was going to try and tell us it was red...instead while I was rolling the window down and talking to him his partner came up on the other side and was shining his light through the back windows.  Fortunately I had not had anything to drink at all all night while we were out. 

We got a warning and had a good laugh on the ride home over them thinking they had caught some kids out late cruising around and got Ozzie and Harriet on their way home.

[Sovereign Nation]

(02-08-2016, 11:57 AM)fredtoast Wrote: If you lived in south Africa then I would allow you to use your victim card as a white person.  So we can drop that line of argument.  But let me ask you this.  What did the black people in South Africa think about the country during apartheid?  I mean, I am guessing the Jim Crowe South was also a nice place for a white guy to hang out. 

And I remember that white people committed the greatest acts of genocide in human history in the 1940's, but that did not mean white people everywhere were like that.

Wrong.  You don't get to choose the parameters.  That isn't real debate.  You don't get to say... let us focus on the US but not smaller areas like Selma, which is in ruin.  Or larger areas, such as Africa, which is in ruin.

You want to pick and choose the the parameters so you can control the argument. 

Won't work with me. 

Using your argument, if blacks lived in a time where they are slaves then they can use the victim card...  however slavery ended in the US in 1865. 

It was white people that did away with slavery.  Blacks didn't free themselves.  William Wilberforce, William Pitt, John Newton and Charles James Fox, worked hard convincing the British Government to outlaw slavery and sent British ships out to stop the trade from continuing.

There are countless white people that have died putting an end to the notion of slavery.

What do we get for it?  Constant reminder of how at one time whites in America owned slaves.  Constant accusations of racism.

No apologies from me.  No guilt here.

[fredtoast]

(02-08-2016, 01:43 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Then you talk about the Jim Crow south when this country had a MILLION times worse of a race problem. This country is nothing like it was back when the Jim Crow laws were created 140 years ago.

I was not comparing it to modern day United States.  I was comparing it to SA during apartheid, you know, the time you were saying it was so great to be white in SA.  

[fredtoast]

(02-08-2016, 10:24 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: Wrong.  You don't get to choose the parameters.  That isn't real debate.  You don't get to say... let us focus on the US but not smaller areas like Selma, which is in ruin.  Or larger areas, such as Africa, which is in ruin.

You want to pick and choose the the parameters so you can control the argument. 

Won't work with me. 

Using your argument, if blacks lived in a time where they are slaves then they can use the victim card...  however slavery ended in the US in 1865. 

It was white people that did away with slavery.  Blacks didn't free themselves.  William Wilberforce, William Pitt, John Newton and Charles James Fox, worked hard convincing the British Government to outlaw slavery and sent British ships out to stop the trade from continuing.

There are countless white people that have died putting an end to the notion of slavery.

What do we get for it?  Constant reminder of how at one time whites in America owned slaves.  Constant accusations of racism.

No apologies from me.  No guilt here.

Again, you are not addressing what people arereally saying.  Instead you make strawmen to knock down

I am not blaming you for slavery or Jim Crow.  I never asked you to feel guilty about any of that.  I have never denied that white people ended slavery and later helped the blacks obtain equal rights.  Even black people admit that it would none of that would have been possible without the help of white people.  All of those are strawmen that you make up to justify your anger.

You point out areas controlled by blacks that in disarray (SA, Selma?) and I can point out areas controlled by whites. like the Ukraine and rural Appalachia, that are in disarray due to poverty and violence.  And I can also point out very peaceful countries controlled by blacks like Ghana and Botswana.  So these are just selective examples you set up to support your position.

All I am doing is pointing out that in the United States white people control a disproportionate amount of the power wealth, media, and political control.  There is a benefit to being an "insider" in this country.  In fact many white people still view all black people as dangerous criminals.  There is a benefit to not being saddled with that stereotype judgement.  White people have not been victims of "racial profiling".  There are lots of privileges that white people have in this country.  And they have nothing to do with guilt or blame.

[BmorePat87]

(02-08-2016, 11:23 AM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: Typical.  Trying to control the parameters.

Fred, I want you to take a trip to SA.  When it was controlled by whites, not a bad place to be.  Now blacks are in control.  They have attack the whites, it isn't safe to be white there, and it is in ruin.

Do you think that if blacks were in control here that it would be any different than SA?

Unless you were part of the 70% black majority.

[Sovereign Nation]

(02-09-2016, 11:32 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Again, you are not addressing what people arereally saying.  Instead you make strawmen to knock down

I am not blaming you for slavery or Jim Crow.  I never asked you to feel guilty about any of that.  I have never denied that white people ended slavery and later helped the blacks obtain equal rights.  Even black people admit that it would none of that would have been possible without the help of white people.  All of those are strawmen that you make up to justify your anger.

You point out areas controlled by blacks that in disarray (SA, Selma?) and I can point out areas controlled by whites. like the Ukraine and rural Appalachia, that are in disarray due to poverty and violence.  And I can also point out very peaceful countries controlled by blacks like Ghana and Botswana.  So these are just selective examples you set up to support your position.

All I am doing is pointing out that in the United States white people control a disproportionate amount of the power wealth, media, and political control.  There is a benefit to being an "insider" in this country.  In fact many white people still view all black people as dangerous criminals.  There is a benefit to not being saddled with that stereotype judgement.  White people have not been victims of "racial profiling".  There are lots of privileges that white people have in this country.  And they have nothing to do with guilt or blame.

Actually I am.  You see, I have stated that I find it a lot one sided that whites have to "confront racism".

You decided to assume that I am confusing "oppression" with "racism".

To which I have given plenty of examples of oppression of whites all around the world. 

You have decided that is too big and doesn't fit your narrative, so you decided to narrow it to only our country.  I say why narrow it to our country and why not look at actual cities, Detroit, Baltimore, Ferguson or Selma?  You don't want to do that, because it also doesn't fit your narrative.  No in ORDER for your narrative to work, it has to be the WHOLE of the US.

Don't get it twisted, I am not angry.  I could care less what happens to blacks in black communities.  I am just being vigilant for when their activities start spilling over into my community.  I also think there should be a place for whites only, a safe place for them.  

I didn't say you were blaming me, now did I?  I did say that whites are constantly being shamed repeatedly, this very thread has an article on trying to "shame" whites for supposed "white privilege".

Have you been to Ghana?  Or Bostwana?  Do you know what it is like being white in those countries?  Ghana is 98% black and has 0 white leaders, yet you don't seem to care about diversifying Ghana.  Keep in mind, I would be against you if you did.  However, to be fair, if you want white countries to be diverse then you should be calling for more diversity in Ghana.

I keep telling you, that white people being in control is NOT a bad thing.  There is nothing wrong with white people being in control.  Since white people have throughout history have helped black people and nations.  So your fear of white people holding the majority of power isn't really justified.  I don't think white people are in control of the media, there is another group that is in control of that, do some research and you will see a link connecting a lot of the power players in the media.

As far as political control, I have seen quite a few black political leaders across all levels, I think I have even listed some of them.  Yet even then follow the money and the donors and you might be surprised to see who is really in control of our politics.

White people are victims of racial profiling... Just for being white, I am automatically targeted for having money, which makes me more vulnerable than a black man.  If I am driving through a black neighborhood at a certain time cops are more likely to pull me over, the reason?  "why am I in this neighborhood if not to buy or sell drugs", this was told to me by countless narcotics officers.  If I leave a bar or club, then cops will profile me as a drunk white male and pull me over to perform a FST.  Just because whites aren't complaining about profiling doesn't mean we aren't being profiled.  Matter of fact, what is the profile of a serial killer?  Whites don't complain about being targeted because we really there is truth to why we are being stopped and profiled.

There are a lot of privileges given to non-whites in this country.  Again, when you have prominent non-whites talking about non-white privilege then maybe I might acknowledge supposed white privilege.  The fact that you are quick to point out this made up privilege only proves that you expect me to feel guilty and blame me for being white.

[Sovereign Nation]

(02-09-2016, 01:01 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Unless you were part of the 70% black majority.

Talk to some SAs. 

Not sure the truth of this, but I have talked to a few Afrikaners who stated that SA was open country and no tribe was living there when they moved in.  After they established a civilization, tribes from the north came down and wanted to take over.  When the whites defended what they built, then blacks cried oppression.

I again, can't verify that claim, though I have heard it stated by more than one person from SA.

I personally think they could and should leave and return to Europe, that would be up to them though.

[Sovereign Nation]

For fun, anyone who wants to see the narrative against white pride:

type in these things in Google search:

Black Pride
Asian Pride
Gay Pride

and then finally White Pride.

Look at the wikipedia definitions on each.

Here is another Salon article

http://www.salon.com/2015/01/09/5_reasons_white_pride_is_always_racist_partner/

Funny in the article it says Whiteness is a social construct, then that means I am not "white" so therefore I can't have any privilege if there is no such thing as Whiteness to begin with.

[fredtoast]

(02-10-2016, 07:56 AM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: You have decided that is too big and doesn't fit your narrative, so you decided to narrow it to only our country.  I say why narrow it to our country and why not look at actual cities, Detroit, Baltimore, Ferguson or Selma?  You don't want to do that, because it also doesn't fit your narrative.  No in ORDER for your narrative to work, it has to be the WHOLE of the US.

What do you want to say about these places?

There are no white people being oppressed in any of those places.  

What is your point?

As for MY narrative it was about YOU playing the victim card.  So what do these cities have to do with that?

[fredtoast]

(02-10-2016, 07:56 AM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: Have you been to Ghana?  Or Bostwana?  Do you know what it is like being white in those countries?  Ghana is 98% black and has 0 white leaders, yet you don't seem to care about diversifying Ghana.  Keep in mind, I would be against you if you did.  However, to be fair, if you want white countries to be diverse then you should be calling for more diversity in Ghana.

Can you not read?  The only reason I brought up a majority black country was in response to your claims about areas controlled by black people.  If i had chosen a peaceful country that was only half black you would have said it did not apply to the discussion because it was not "black enough".

You can't even keep all your red herrings straight.

[BmorePat87]

(02-10-2016, 08:04 AM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: Talk to some SAs. 

Not sure the truth of this, but I have talked to a few Afrikaners who stated that SA was open country and no tribe was living there when they moved in.  After they established a civilization, tribes from the north came down and wanted to take over.  When the whites defended what they built, then blacks cried oppression.

I again, can't verify that claim, though I have heard it stated by more than one person from SA.

I personally think they could and should leave and return to Europe, that would be up to them though.

No. There had been Africans living there since the Bantu expansion hundreds of years prior. The Dutch were the first to establish longer lasting settlements and had some minor skirmishes with the Xhosa people. The British then came to town and fought with the Dutch Boers and the Zulu people. The Zulu were in the eastern region but moved south after European expansion and the slave trade pushed more northern tribes into the region. As more people were forced to the area, the Zulu attempted to take territory in the south to make room for these new people. 

So it sounds like these individuals are attempting to suggest no tribes lived in SA (which is false) and that the Zulu wanted to take away this great society that the British had built. While they did expand to lands once held by African tribes but now Europeans, it was in response to a migration crisis caused by the Europeans. Basically, the Europeans stole land and they unsuccessfully tried to take it back. 

That history lesson aside, life was awful for Africans and Indians (80% of the population) in South Africa. 

[Sovereign Nation]

(02-10-2016, 10:54 AM)fredtoast Wrote: What do you want to say about these places?

There are no white people being oppressed in any of those places.  

What is your point?

As for MY narrative it was about YOU playing the victim card.  So what do these cities have to do with that?

Yeah... violence against you just for being white isn't oppressive... silly me.

That was my point, but go ahead and "marginalize" white suffering as you pimp up oppression for other races.

How do you know I haven't been a victim of racism?   Let me guess it probably has something to do with my skin color.  I am not going to go into personal accounts, 1. I am not supposed to use anecdotal evidence and 2. Not any of your business.

As far as what these other cities have to do with racism and oppression, try living in them, see how privileged you are.

[Sovereign Nation]

(02-10-2016, 05:58 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: No. There had been Africans living there since the Bantu expansion hundreds of years prior. The Dutch were the first to establish longer lasting settlements and had some minor skirmishes with the Xhosa people. The British then came to town and fought with the Dutch Boers and the Zulu people. The Zulu were in the eastern region but moved south after European expansion and the slave trade pushed more northern tribes into the region. As more people were forced to the area, the Zulu attempted to take territory in the south to make room for these new people. 

So it sounds like these individuals are attempting to suggest no tribes lived in SA (which is false) and that the Zulu wanted to take away this great society that the British had built. While they did expand to lands once held by African tribes but now Europeans, it was in response to a migration crisis caused by the Europeans. Basically, the Europeans stole land and they unsuccessfully tried to take it back. 

That history lesson aside, life was awful for Africans and Indians (80% of the population) in South Africa. 

I am sure you might be right, like I have stated, can't validate the claims made by the Afrikaners.  However they do paint a different picture than what is widely accepted by MSM.  This sounds like it is straight from a history book or from a college course.  

[Vlad]

Quote:fredtoast
Again, you are not addressing what people arereally saying.  Instead you make strawmen to knock downI am not blaming you for slavery or Jim Crow.  I never asked you to feel guilty about any of that.  I have never denied that white people ended slavery and later helped the blacks obtain equal rights.  Even black people admit that it would none of that would have been possible without the help of white people.  All of those are strawmen that you make up to justify your anger.

It would be nice if black people would admit that slavery would not have been possible if their own people didn't sell them into slavery.
If Sovereign is indeed angry its probably at your ignorance. 

Quote:fredtoast
You point out areas controlled by blacks that in disarray (SA, Selma?) and I can point out areas controlled by whites. like the Ukraine and rural Appalachia, that are in disarray due to poverty and violence.  And I can also point out very peaceful countries controlled by blacks like Ghana and Botswana.  So these are just selective examples you set up to support your position.

There are 76 countries poorer than the Ukraine and the "violence" may have something to do with the Russian invasion, not because they are poor. Violent crime in Appalachia is half the national average so don't even go there.
Don't cherry pick other countries to make a point. The Unites States has a unique history of race relations like no other so lets keep it home. Talk about strawman.

Quote:fredtoast
All I am doing is pointing out that in the United States white people control a disproportionate amount of the power wealth, media, and political control.  There is a benefit to being an "insider" in this country.  In fact many white people still view all black people as dangerous criminals.  There is a benefit to not being saddled with that stereotype judgement.  White people have not been victims of "racial profiling".  There are lots of privileges that white people have in this country.  And they have nothing to do with guilt or blame.

Blacks only comprising of 13% of the population and whites 75% may be a factor as to why there is this disproportionate power of wealth, I don't know, but what I do know is that it's not from discrimination or the white privilege rhetoric you white guilt types are trying to sell.

You mention that this disproportionate control is in wealth, media, the political arena. I'll add one more..Hollywood.
That said, why don't you come out and get specific about which white people you are talking about, the Jews? ...or does that not fall in line with you PC convictions?
You do realize that these white people you're pointing your finger at are the vey ones that are in line with your stupid progressive agenda right?

You want to talk disproportionate, the population is only 2% Jewish yet Jews control the banking industry in this country:

Paul Volcker who headed the Federal Reserve and is a Jew.  Alan Greenspan who succeeded him  a Jew, then  Benjamin Bernanke a Jew, and now Janet Yellen, a Jew. The Rothchilds and the Federal Reserve bank, Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers, Solomon Brothers, all Jewish.

This 2% segment of our population also control nearly all of the media:
ABC, NBC, CBS, Warner Bros. MSNMC, Walt Disney, CNN, Sony Pictures, Viacom, Comcast and much more.
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_media_executives_in_America

The Jews in politics:

Off the top of my head...Bernie Sanders, Feinstein, Boxer, Bloomberg, Koch, Weiner, Lieberman...
Wow even more than I thought. Forgot that asshole Al Franken was a Jew.

thttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_American_politicians