05-13-2021, 09:48 AM
Post deleted. I don't feel like going down the same 3rd party idiot road for now. At least not via my phone. I'll get to it later if anyone cares.
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Continued Trump Administration Fallout
Continued Trump Administration Fallout
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Continued Trump Administration Fallout
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05-13-2021, 02:45 PM
(05-13-2021, 09:48 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Post deleted. I don't feel like going down the same 3rd party idiot road for now. At least not via my phone. I'll get to it later if anyone cares. Oh my, this might be on me and my mentioning your alias. Just to be clear. I don't think you're an idiot for voting third party. Imho you vote for change and only do what you feel is right. I blame the system for this being so futile, not you. The one thing I'd say and tried to say, for sure, is that it's indeed futile and Trump or the GOP don't need to bother about you.
05-13-2021, 03:23 PM
(05-13-2021, 02:45 PM)hollodero Wrote: Oh my, this might be on me and my mentioning your alias. Just to be clear. I don't think you're an idiot for voting third party. Imho you vote for change and only do what you feel is right. I blame the system for this being so futile, not you. Meh you aren't too far off. I don't regret Johnson over Hillary/Trump but I'd be lying if I said I didn't have some "Oh crap maybe I shoulda voted for Biden in 2020" thoughts when PA hung in the balance.
05-13-2021, 03:38 PM
(05-13-2021, 03:23 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Meh you aren't too far off. I don't regret Johnson over Hillary/Trump but I'd be lying if I said I didn't have some "Oh crap maybe I shoulda voted for Biden in 2020" thoughts when PA hung in the balance. Sure, I figured. You clearly heavily preferred one of the two possible outcomes over the other and that creates an obvious argument against your course of action. But there's still the argument that what you'd actually like is having more than this whole bipolar political system to begin with and don't want to be tied to one of those two halves of the empire (at least that's how I read it), and that is a very understandable counterpoint. As I said, it's not about me secondguessing you or anyone really. It was me trying to make a point on how the Liz Cheney saga does not change anything for the better; amongst many other things based on the 'fact' that this probably will not make you (and many who feel like you) go for the only actual alternative the next go around either.
05-13-2021, 04:06 PM
Liz Cheney probably just wishes she could have Trump tortured until he admits that he rigged both elections. She's the old GOP. The new enemy of the people are the media, democrats, and non Trump Republicans.
05-13-2021, 04:41 PM
(05-13-2021, 04:06 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Liz Cheney probably just wishes she could have Trump tortured until he admits that he rigged both elections. She's the old GOP. The new enemy of the people are the media, democrats, and non Trump Republicans. Don't forget the rest of the world. They were laughing about you and duping you babies with trade deals, climate accords, defense spending and the like.
05-13-2021, 04:46 PM
(05-13-2021, 04:41 PM)hollodero Wrote: Don't forget the rest of the world. They were laughing aboiut you and duping you babies with trade deals, climate accords, defense spending and the like. They only laugh at us or dupe us when democrats are in power. Hell, the idea of that goes back to 1980. The world was laughing at and pushing around Jimmy Carter so we needed a lifelong democrat from a sinful liberal haven to turn Republican and save us. It's mean girls politics. Everyone is totally making fun of you but I'm totally here to protect your sorry ass. A true friend will tell you everyone else is out to get you. Duh. 
05-13-2021, 04:58 PM
(05-13-2021, 04:06 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Liz Cheney probably just wishes she could have Trump tortured until he admits that he rigged both elections. She's the old GOP. The new enemy of the people are the media, democrats, and non Trump Republicans. You know, I wouldn't call her "Old GOP," though the label partially fits. (Unless you mean "old" by the new Trump party standards.) This Atlantic article helps highlight some of the continuity between the Bush and Trump eras. Liz Cheney Has Only Herself to Blame: The representative from Wyoming is taking a stand against an authoritarian streak in the Republican Party that she helped cultivate. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/05/liz-cheney-trump-fraud/618820/ During the Obama administration, Cheney was a Fox News regular who, as was the fashion at the time, insisted that the president was secretly sympathetic to jihadists. She enthusiastically defended the use of torture, dismissed the constitutional right to due process as an inconvenience, and amplified the Obama-era campaign to portray American Muslims as a national-security threat. Until the insurrection, she was a loyal Trumpist who frequently denounced the Democratic Party. “They’ve become the party of anti-Semitism; they’ve become the party of infanticide; they’ve become the party of socialism,” she said in 2019. Her critics now, such as Scalise and the buffoonish Representative Matt Gaetz, formerly gushed over her ability to bring, as the Times put it in 2019, “an edge to Republican messaging that was lacking.” . . . “Americans have a right to know the identity of the Al-Qaeda Seven,” a 2010 ad from Cheney’s group, Keep America Safe, intoned ominously, as if it were referring to the actual 9/11 hijackers and not the attorneys who had represented Gitmo detainees in court.* “Whose values do they share?" The Enemy has no rights, and anyone who imagines otherwise, let alone seeks to uphold them, is also The Enemy. This is the logic of the War on Terror, and also the logic of the party of Trump.
05-13-2021, 05:08 PM
(05-13-2021, 04:46 PM)Nately120 Wrote: They only laugh at us or dupe us when democrats are in power. Yeah that's true of course. I mean, the current one is a clearly demented head of an international crime family, and the last one was called Hussein. Apparently a muslim doing muslim stuff all day, and so apparently from Kenya, one only needed to look at a Kenyan to know that. It was so laughable. We just had to dupe the guy into the anti-american sentiment that is any kind of global understanding. Trump, on the other hand, reminded us to check back on the exploding trees in our forest cities. We almost forgot to rake the floors to prevent a disaster. We never were so thankful to an US president ever since Bush ended our war with the sea with his words of fish peace.
05-13-2021, 06:00 PM
(05-12-2021, 07:50 PM)hollodero Wrote: Well, for one having THREE principled GOP party members talking into a void is not change for the better. There were always three people doing that. Some quick notes on the bolded: 1. Actually there weren't always three people doing that. And more resistance is beginning to congeal into a movement. More than 150 Republicans launch new political movement questioning Trump's role in GOP https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/13/politics/republican-political-movement-trump/index.html 2. You've set an impossibly high standard here. That's not a realistic measure of change, rather a fantasy. 3. Sure, bad handling of Corona virus, but for many Trump supporters, the drop in unemployment and continued gains in the Obama economy were a big plus. Not often, if every, a president loses under those conditions. but Trump managed it. And he managed to snatch defeat in Georgia from the jaws of victory. 4. Trump gained voters because he was able to engage many who previously hadn't voted, ginning up fear of socialism and the like. But that was with him in the news and on twitter every day. We don't have that now. And it was before 1/6. You might have had your 15% loss had the election been held a day after that. Now we have house Republicans who ran from the floor claiming that the insurrection was more like a "normal tourist visit" as the MSM juxtaposes images of the savage crowd chanting "hang Mike Pence." That won't maintain the former numbers. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/capitol-riot-january-6-hearing-lawmakers-clash/ There is more going on here than just taking turns. The parties are not symmetrical opposites. One is much less stable, having tremendous difficulty creating issue-based consensus. Apparent consenses on Wokeness issues (Save Seuss and Potatohead), are not really consenses about issues, but express floating anxieties whose only constant is affirmation of Trump attitude. (05-12-2021, 07:50 PM)hollodero Wrote: To a large part, one can see it here. I found exactly one person that actually got swayed (TigerTeeth). Eg. folks like Nately see Trump pretty much exactly as we do, yet he did not vote for the alternative the first time or the second time, which amounts to zero movement on his part. Not to pick him out, it seems to be the 50% of people's take, can't vote for either party anyway and nothing and no one could ever change that, so it does not matter. You really have little swing voters in your country. All is dug in, including the never-voters and third-party voters, the "truth" can be picked accordingly these days. 5. How many forum members who voted for Hillary https://www.cbsnews.com/news/capitol-riot-january-6-hearing-lawmakers-clash/ a preference for Trump in 2020? 6. The GOP non-believers I was referring to were the elected leaders in Congress, not the rank and file base. The latter DO believe the election was stolen and the impeachment a witch hunt. MSM bias everywhere. Fake news. To re-explain--the base is looking for "fake" leaders and traitors to weed out. All these non believers are very vulnerable, though in the case of most Senators, not in '22. When they are replaced by Marjorie Greenes and Matt Gaetz's, that resulting instability will push more "independents" Dem-ward.
05-13-2021, 07:49 PM
(05-13-2021, 06:00 PM)Dill Wrote: Some quick notes on the bolded: Oh no there were always three. Well, maybe not exactly. But there was McCain and Romney was there and Corker had some bad things to say and Jeff Flake, and the guy that primaried Trump and Justin Amash, George Bush and quite some former big shots spoke out, and not to forget all the former employees, and all these bipartisan letters from a plethora of high-ranking people of all political leanings calling Bill Barr a disgrace or scolding Pompeo and all these things. Former republicans pundits in the media en masse, too. This was always there. At some point, these things lose its meaning as long as the rest of the party does counterreact the way it does. After the Liz Cheney affair, the party is not less tied to Trump, it is more tied to him. And the stance on the election is not more controversial in the party now either. (05-13-2021, 06:00 PM)Dill Wrote: 2. You've set an impossibly high standard here. That's not a realistic measure of change, rather a fantasy. Yeah and that is a sad thing. And a direct result of your outdated political system that heavily relies on thoughts of founding fathers that were not thoughtful enough to foresee parties they themselves created. European countries sure have their issues as well, but a Trump would still lose by a landslide in most of them, as is healthy. There'd be other parties to go for. In America, where there is only one other party that tends to be disliked by many, the thought process really is, oh a candidate can not possibly lose 60-40, that just ain't gonna happen really no matter what. Trump barely appalling some more people than he additionally attracted and hence just barely losing this time is as good as it gets. At this state, rain on election day might be a more influential factor for the outcome than anything a candidate said or did. This is an impossible low standard, of which I know it's close to the sad reality in a dangerously sclerotic political climate. (05-13-2021, 06:00 PM)Dill Wrote: 3. Sure, bad handling of Corona virus, but for many Trump supporters, the drop in unemployment and continued gains in the Obama economy were a big plus. Not often, if every, a president loses under those conditions. but Trump managed it. And he managed to snatch defeat in Georgia from the jaws of victory. Yay...! But again, the sad thing imho is that there were jaws of victory to begin with. According to your points, due to factors that don't have all that much to do with the president. So more by chance, really. And I know Trump lost, but this is the same to me due to it being so close. Chance. Chance no one announced any investigations into Biden a few days before the election, for example. (05-13-2021, 06:00 PM)Dill Wrote: 4. Trump gained voters because he was able to engage many who previously hadn't voted, ginning up fear of socialism and the like. But that was with him in the news and on twitter every day. We don't have that now. True. That is the most hopeful thing I can see. (05-13-2021, 06:00 PM)Dill Wrote: And it was before 1/6. You might have had your 15% loss had the election been held a day after that. Yeah, there are short time blips down in approval every now and then, a few days after Trump going too far. Those blips all went away soon. I don't know how many approve of him now, but I'd bet the numbers are back to where they always were, or at least already trending towards that. The behaviour of republicans seem to indicate as much, the Grahammeter. (05-13-2021, 06:00 PM)Dill Wrote: Now we have house Republicans who ran from the floor claiming that the insurrection was more like a "normal tourist visit" as the MSM juxtaposes images of the savage crowd chanting "hang Mike Pence." That won't maintain the former numbers. Oh no, they are not symmetrical opposites. The election results over time are. And I think the bad state a party might be in, or how ridiculous they might appear, does not change this symmetry. No matter how instable or extreme the GOP turns, there will never be a period of 8 or 12 years of democratic reign in Congress and presidency. It will always even out at some point, due to the psychology of the dissatisfied that regularly switch parties, eg. based on the economic fluctuation, and the rigid rest that never will. One can rely on this dynamic being broken if there's a minority leader Marjorie, but given recent developments I doubt making her speaker would really change too many minds. (05-13-2021, 06:00 PM)Dill Wrote: 5. How many forum members who voted for Hillary https://www.cbsnews.com/news/capitol-riot-january-6-hearing-lawmakers-clash/ a preference for Trump in 2020? I guess none, that was not my point though. (05-13-2021, 06:00 PM)Dill Wrote: 6. The GOP non-believers I was referring to were the elected leaders in Congress, not the rank and file base. The latter DO believe the election was stolen and the impeachment a witch hunt. MSM bias everywhere. Fake news. To re-explain--the base is looking for "fake" leaders and traitors to weed out. All these non believers are very vulnerable, though in the case of most Senators, not in '22. When they are replaced by Marjorie Greenes and Matt Gaetz's, that resulting instability will push more "independents" Dem-ward. I get the logic, I doubt that significantly more independents can or will be pushed away that weren't already pushed away and towards the democratic alternative by Trumpism until now though. If the economy is good, then sure, Trump will probably lose in 2024. If it isn't, which seems likely no matter what Biden does, he will probably win, and the GOP will win house and senate seats. At least that's how I see it and it is unchanged by martyr Liz. 
05-14-2021, 08:36 AM
With Cheney out, it's interesting she is speaking on potential criminal charges for Trump from the January 6th insurrection and noting that the reason Republicans don't want a commission is because it will expose their roles in it. Kind of funny that they thought throwing her out would make her go away, but she knows all the dirty laundry inside the party.
05-14-2021, 04:48 PM
(05-14-2021, 08:36 AM)Au165 Wrote: With Cheney out, it's interesting she is speaking on potential criminal charges for Trump from the January 6th insurrection and noting that the reason Republicans don't want a commission is because it will expose their roles in it. Kind of funny that they thought throwing her out would make her go away, but she knows all the dirty laundry inside the party. And don't they know it. Their stated reason for removing her from leadership was that they want to move forward and she is stuck re-litigating the election and 1/6. Unfortunately for them, Trump is also stuck there. He has no new plans or vision for the future other than proving he won the election and punishing any who challenge what has become orthodox for his base. Republicans’ Overthrow of Liz Cheney Risks Worsening Their Headaches https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/12/us/politics/trump-republicans-cheney.html The message was unmistakable: Her colleagues may have stripped Ms. Cheney of her post as chair of the House Republican Conference, but they have effectively handed her a new platform and a new role as the leader of the small band of anti-Trump Republicans.... By excommunicating Ms. Cheney from her position, however, Republican lawmakers have created a host of new problems for their party. They have underscored the grip that the increasingly unpopular Mr. Trump retains on their ranks; demoralized Republicans and independents who want to move on from his tenure; and, perhaps most significantly, emboldened a household-name conservative to take her case against Trumpism far beyond a Capitol conference room. House Republicans knew what they had done as soon as they emerged from their meeting. “That’s what it looks like when somebody is running for president,” Representative Mike Rogers of Alabama muttered to colleagues as they quickly walked past Ms. Cheney during her remarks in front of the cameras. Other long-serving members, though, were more sobered by the divisions Mr. Trump is still sowing among Republicans and by the megaphone they had just handed Ms. Cheney.... “The difficulty is to get members to see the long-term advantages we have rather than the short-term struggles and nastiness,” Mr. McHenry said. Most of his colleagues concluded that as long as Ms. Cheney was highlighting Mr. Trump’s conspiracy-mongering, and their own timidity, it would prove difficult to fully capitalize on those long-term advantages. Yet it’s Mr. Trump who, well past Mr. Biden’s first-100-day mark, continues to present Republicans with their most vexing problem. At issue: how to accommodate a former president who’s beloved by their core voters, more detested than ever among the broader electorate and consumed with his defeat and campaign of retribution. “Trump is the one who keeps raising it,” said Representative Fred Upton of Michigan, one of the 10 House Republicans who voted to impeach Mr. Trump in January.
05-17-2021, 08:11 PM
Just came out that Barr used the DoJ to attempt to force Twitter to unmask a parody account of Devin Nunes. Twitter asked for reasoning and they claimed threats but wouldn’t give them any more information. They also tried to force a gag order preventing Twitter from informing the user of the potential unmasking.
Everything we are learning about Barr post administration sure seems like he used his position to protect and do favors for political allies. 
05-19-2021, 10:34 AM
New York AG has notified the Trump Organization that it is being criminally investigated now. This is separate but related to the federal investigation currently ongoing by the Manhatten DA.
05-25-2021, 10:25 PM
(05-14-2021, 04:48 PM)Dill Wrote: And don't they know it. Their stated reason for removing her from leadership was that they want to move forward and she is stuck re-litigating the election and 1/6. It's an all-around shitty deal for the GOP. Trump's authoritarian streak was cute when he was smashing the libz on social media. It's a little less fun when he's out of power and still lording his base and their votes over the party that probably wants to move on from him. The Republican Party has essentially told anyone that's conservative yet non-Trump-scrote-licker that they have no place in the tent. You do not win elections by shrinking your tent and excluding voters. It's actually the opposite of how it works. In the end, the choice to make an ousted moron the golden calf for the party to bow to might be the undoing of the party for a long time. His base still froths at the mouth for him to speechify and smash some libz, to be sure. However, there are still just as many if not more who hate his guts and will work just as hard to make sure nothing like a Trump presidency ever happens again.
05-26-2021, 12:05 AM
(05-25-2021, 10:25 PM)samhain Wrote: It's an all-around shitty deal for the GOP. Trump's authoritarian streak was cute when he was smashing the libz on social media. It's a little less fun when he's out of power and still lording his base and their votes over the party that probably wants to move on from him. Well, while Trump is out of the limelight, it looks like some gradual erosion of Republican support is occurring. In part because IN the limelight is Marjorie Greene and Matt Gaetz and these crazy recounts--which will apparently force AZ to throw away its polling machines and buy all new ones. The Big Lie still drives millions, enough so this crazy show will move on soon to Michigan and Georgia, where it will likely continue to bear no fruit and continue to shear off support for GOP trying to actually govern. Forcing people to lie is not as easy at you'd think. People do it to stay in power, but as it becomes ever more blatant, they know they are destroying their credibility with that small number of people whose approval really matters. And with themselves. ON THE OTHER HAND-- You've got the Republicans running for state offices which would place them in control of the election process in 2022. If allowed to do that, I shan't be surprised if all manner of documentable (as apposed to merely rumored) "irregularities" appear. The alternative may not be better--namely that accurate counts show undesired wins, leading to continued claims of voter fraud even with the conspiracy theorists are in charge. https://www.politico.com/news/2021/05/24/2020-election-republican-official-races-490458 
05-26-2021, 02:02 AM
(05-26-2021, 12:05 AM)Dill Wrote: Well, while Trump is out of the limelight, it looks like some gradual erosion of Republican support is occurring. I think the same thing every time Jen Psaki and AOC open their mouths.
05-26-2021, 11:36 AM
(05-26-2021, 02:02 AM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: I think the same thing every time Jen Psaki and AOC open their mouths. Do you hear anything from them on the scale of "Trump really won the election" or "masks don't work"? |
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