Coronavirus

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-04-2020, 09:06 AM)bfine32 Wrote: He held daily briefings with medical experts telling folks what they should do, but he's tro blame bedcause he didn't urge people to wear a mask, he let them decide for themselves. You'll just have to be aghast if you think my priorities are wrong by asserting that is less important than keeping liberal judges off the Supreme Court. 

Now you can think that it would be wiser to have a national shutdown of "non-essential" businesses and force everyone to wear a mask  than it is to defer to the Governor of each state to determine what is best for his/her state, but I'll view it as otherwise.  

During those briefings he contradicted the medical experts or refused to allow them to answer direct questions from the media, pushed drug combinations that were dangerous and unproven, suggested bleach injections and shining powerful lights on the body to kill the virus, and announced CDC guidance to wear a mask to reduce the spread of the virus so we can safely reopen the economy then announced he wouldn’t follow their medical advice as just a few examples of his failures of leadership during those briefings.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-04-2020, 09:27 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Whether folks like it or not we are a country of individual freedoms and by far the largest economy in the world. We are not the rest of the world.

And individual freedoms can’t lead a coordinated response to a pandemic across state lines or our borders which would require a response on the federal level.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-04-2020, 09:44 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Well then Trump shouldn't piss you off because he doesn't tell folks to do one thing and then doesn't do it himself in this case. 

As I said: I understand why the Liberal wants to make this Trump's fault, just as I can understand the conservative trying to downplay it. At the end of the day we have one person to hold responsible for our safety and that of our family and it's not some orange-haired guy that resides in a big white house.

I strongly believe folks should mask when they cannot socially distance. My family and I have not visited with anyone outside of our pod for 4 months. We've not been to a restaurant, bar, or other social gathering. I haven't had a haircut in 4 months. We have a hand sanitation station set up at every entrance to our house. 

I merely took issue with the assertion that folks who think the appointment of Supreme Court Justices is not as important as Donald Trump telling me I should wear a mask. I'm all grown up I can my my own choices. 

He announced on live TV during one of his briefings the CDC recommends wearing face coverings when you leave the house on April 3rd. And immediately stated he wouldn’t follow the recommendations he just announced during his next sentence.

[*bfine32*]

(07-04-2020, 01:05 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: During those briefings he contradicted the medical experts or refused to allow them to answer direct questions from the media, pushed drug combinations that were dangerous and unproven, suggested bleach injections and shining powerful lights on the body to kill the virus, and announced CDC guidance to wear a mask to reduce the spread of the virus so we can safely reopen the economy then announced he wouldn’t follow their medical advice as just a few examples of his failures of leadership during those briefings.

I've clearly stated that he tried to downplay the pandemic due to political reasons and an attempt to keep the economy afloat, but none of that changes the fact that he gave health officials a National platform daily. We were informed; if you chose to take the word from someone who majored in Real Estate and became a reality celebrity over the advice of trained professionals, then that's on you.

We're learning as we go. I've stated you are most likely the most informed poster in the forum on the matter, but if memory serves early in the process you stated that folks without symptoms getting tested was a waste of tests, now we are learning that's most likely the largest factor in the spread. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-04-2020, 10:43 AM)bfine32 Wrote: What you read was 2 pages of 2 people with differing views having a civil discussion. Hollo seems to think it all starts at the top and I think it's more about personal responsibility. 

You asked what could Trump have done then tried to shift the blame to the individual. Personal responsibility can’t direct a federal response such as authorizing commercially available Covid 19 test for use in the US in January instead of 3 months later.

Quote:I've stated numerous times that I have defended Trump; mostly due to his station than his character. Where things go sideways is when folks chime in with nothing to add to the discussion other than to slur other's opinions and use something asserted in another subject to apply it to the current thread.

Problem is you weren’t slurred.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-04-2020, 01:19 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I've clearly stated that he tried to downplay the pandemic due to political reasons and an attempt to keep the economy afloat, but none of that changes the fact that he gave health officials a National platform daily. We were informed; if you chose to take the word from someone who majored in Real Estate and became a reality celebrity over the advice of trained professionals, then that's on you.

We're learning as we go. I've stated you are most likely the most informed poster in the forum on the matter, but if memory serves early in the process you stated that folks without symptoms getting tested was a waste of tests, now we are learning that's most likely the largest factor in the spread. 

First, show me your evidence I wrote that instead of making a false accusation.

Second, if you check, I think you’ll find I wrote testing symptomatic patients won’t make a difference in their treatment. But, testing was important for disease surveillance. So if my memory serves correctly, you’re memory is bass ackwards.

[*bfine32*]

(07-04-2020, 01:23 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: You asked what could Trump have done then tried to shift the blame to the individual. Personal responsibility can’t direct a federal response such as authorizing commercially available Covid 19 test for use in the US in January instead of 3 months later.


Problem is you weren’t slurred.

This all started when I disagreed with the assertion that one's priorities are wrong if you think have a SCOTUS appointment is more important that Trump telling me to wear a mask. Early testing would have been great, but who should we have tested? Just international travelers, people with symptoms,....)

I said the opinion was slurred (disparaging remark). In the example cited the person address added nothing to the conversation other than bringing up one person said. 

IMO that does absolutely nothing to promote civil discourse, but I guess we'll find out in about a week.  

[*bfine32*]

(07-04-2020, 01:32 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: First, show me your evidence I wrote that instead of making a false accusation.

Second, if you check, I think you’ll find I wrote testing symptomatic patients won’t make a difference in their treatment. But, testing was important for disease surveillance. So if my memory serves correctly, you’re memory is bass ackwards.

Well I did preface the assertion with "If memory serves" apparently it does not. It just seems I remember you stating something along those lines when certain politicians were getting tested. My apologies for "mis-remembering". 

[*jason*]

(07-04-2020, 01:19 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I've clearly stated that he tried to downplay the pandemic due to political reasons and an attempt to keep the economy afloat, but none of that changes the fact that he gave health officials a National platform daily. We were informed; if you chose to take the word from someone who majored in Real Estate and became a reality celebrity over the advice of trained professionals, then that's on you.

We're learning as we go. I've stated you are most likely the most informed poster in the forum on the matter, but if memory serves early in the process you stated that folks without symptoms getting tested was a waste of tests, now we are learning that's most likely the largest factor in the spread. 

I agree with you on the personal accountability aspect. Personally I didn't need anyone to tell me to hang back from crowds, and things of that nature. My mind had been made up that that's what I was going to do... But...

It's been pointed out that Trump often contradicted his health officials. He tweeted liberate this and that... Defying local authorities who were truly leading our ragtag response to the pandemic. That was an attemtp to whip all the personally accountable types into a frenzy and put pressure on local officials. All the while pushing reopening because the cure is worse than the disease... And his big accomplishment is presiding over an economy. So the federal government comes up with a phased reopening plan which it immediately disregards. On top of that, he turned around and told Georgia they were opening too quickly.

To me his most unforgivable "mistake" was taking to Twitter to rally his base. Personal accountability is great, but when live in a time when people fly flags at their house with the president's name on them... Some of them even display him as some armed badass on a tank. So a good sized portion of this country will somehow decide that what the guy with the real estate degree and bad TV show should be listened to over some doctor from Brooklyn they never heard of til now. That guy's (the TV star) words and deeds obviously hold weight with those people. He's done them a disservice, and let them and all of us down with his handling of the Coronavirus.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-04-2020, 01:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This all started when I disagreed with the assertion that one's priorities are wrong if you think have a SCOTUS appointment is more important that Trump telling me to wear a mask. Early testing would have been great, but who should we have tested? Just international travelers, people with symptoms,....)

I thought we were talking about the federal government’s response to a pandemic which has killed approximately 130,000 Americans in about 6 months. By reducing that response to a single issue such as Trump not telling you to wear a mask I would think you aren’t interested in an earnest conversation on the topic.

Quote:I said the opinion was slurred (disparaging remark). In the example cited the person address added nothing to the conversation other than bringing up one person said. 

IMO that does absolutely nothing to promote civil discourse, but I guess we'll find out in about a week.  

Except you are defending Trump again. Stating so isn’t a slur.

[Belsnickel]

(07-03-2020, 11:10 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Answer this simple question and we can leave it at that,

Do you think Donald Trump is receiving more blame than he deserves or less in regards to the COVID Pandemic. 

Less, at least in this conversation. There is a lot of talk about his failed leadership on the issue, but what isn't discussed is his trashing of the pandemic response plan left by the Obama administration and his ignoring expert advice on what was going on in China. We had our own medical experts saying that there was a high risk of something like this coming out of China and that we should provide help and resources to them to help ensure a global pandemic didn't occur. In response to this, he cut the staffing and resources by more than half and removed the US expert embedded in the Chinese infrastructure that would've acted as the liaison and provided us with an earlier warning about the outbreak.

[*bfine32*]

(07-04-2020, 01:59 PM)jason Wrote: I agree with you on the personal accountability aspect. Personally I didn't need anyone to tell me to hang back from crowds, and things of that nature. My mind had been made up that that's what I was going to do... But...

It's been pointed out that Trump often contradicted his health officials. He tweeted liberate this and that... Defying local authorities who were truly leading our ragtag response to the pandemic. That was an attemtp to whip all the personally accountable types into a frenzy and put pressure on local officials. All the while pushing reopening because the cure is worse than the disease... And his big accomplishment is presiding over an economy. So the federal government comes up with a phased reopening plan which it immediately disregards. On top of that, he turned around and told Georgia they were opening too quickly.

To me his most unforgivable "mistake" was taking to Twitter to rally his base. Personal accountability is great, but when live in a time when people fly flags at their house with the president's name on them... Some of them even display him as some armed badass on a tank. So a good sized portion of this country will somehow decide that what the guy with the real estate degree and bad TV show should be listened to over some doctor from Brooklyn they never heard of til now. That guy's (the TV star) words and deeds obviously hold weight with those people. He's done them a disservice, and let them and all of us down with his handling of the Coronavirus.

This is a well thought out post. My point remains the Left has something to gain by making this as much Trump's fault as they can and the Right must try to down play it. The truth is most likely somewhere in the middle. 

[*bfine32*]

(07-04-2020, 02:18 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I thought we were talking about the federal government’s response to a pandemic which has killed approximately 130,000 Americans in about 6 months. By reducing that response to a single issue such as Trump not telling you to wear a mask I would you aren’t interested in an earnest conversation on the topic.


Except you are defending Trump again.  Stating so isn’t a slur.

Hollo and In were discussing exactly that; I simply pointed out why it started. 


Where in the back and forth with Hollo did I say I was not defending Trump. IMO not constructive came from the comments, but I'm sure Dino appreciates you White Knighting him. 

I apologize for pointing it out. We'll just see how those types of posts play going forward. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-04-2020, 01:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well I did preface the assertion with "If memory serves" apparently it does not. It just seems I remember you stating something along those lines when certain politicians were getting tested. My apologies for "mis-remembering". 

Oh, you took exception to me complaining about Trump (and professional athletes) being tested when they were asymptomatic yet people in the ER couldn’t get tested because of testing protocols due to a lack of test kits.

Yeah, your memory is way off.

My complaint about that was we didn’t have enough tests for critically ill patients so why are test kits being used a people who weren’t sick at all. Because back in March we didn’t have enough test for sick people to trace their contacts of positive let alone for well people. And who is more likely to have Covid 19, a sick patient or a well patient? A sick one. So if you have a limited supply of tests, use them on the sick patients.

But, in your attempt to not defend Trump again you had to turn it into something it wasn’t.

[*bfine32*]

(07-04-2020, 02:28 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Oh, you took exception to me complaining about Trump (and professional athletes) being tested when they were asymptomatic yet people in the ER couldn’t get tested because of testing protocols due to a lack of test kits.

Yeah, your memory is way off.

My complaint about that was we didn’t have enough tests for critically ill patients so why are test kits being used a people who weren’t sick at all. Because back in March we didn’t have enough test for sick people to trace their contacts of positive let alone for well people. And who is more likely to have Covid 19, a sick patient or a well patient? A sick one. So if you have a limited supply of tests, use them on the sick patients.

But, in your attempt to not defend Trump again you had to turn it into something it wasn’t.

Maybe to keep others from winding up in the ER. What good is a test when you're already symptomatic and in the ER? 

Once again, where have I said I'm not defending Trump in this exchange. I clearly am by suggesting he's taking more brunt of the blame than deserved. Fell free to disagree with that, but quit White Knighting and parroting Dino's petty remark. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-04-2020, 02:34 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Maybe to keep others from winding up in the ER. What good is a test when you're already symptomatic and in the ER? 

Once again, where have I said I'm not defending Trump in this exchange. I clearly am by suggesting he's taking more brunt of the blame than deserved. Fell free to disagree with that, but quit White Knighting and parroting Dino's petty remark. 

As I stated in that post and previously, testing allows for contact tracing of positive results which allows for isolation of contacts to stop the spread.

[hollodero]

(07-04-2020, 12:48 PM)bfine32 Wrote: And as I said when this all started: I put a higher priority on keeping Justices out of the Supreme Court who judge on their Liberal bias than I do on Trump saying I should wear a mask. 

One sets laws I must abide by and one just runs his mouth trying to keep the world's largest economy afloat. 

Well, ok then. You sure are aware that it does in no way boil down to "Trump telling or not telling you to wear a mask", that it is about way more than just that, and hence your way to put it is a bit of a cheap rhetorical figure.

But ok, the way I see it I asked to check priorities and you apparently did. For the life of me I will never understand how you can reach the conclusions you reach, because the list of Trump failures is long and scary and you actually disputed none of the points made. I'm angry I forgot "trashing the Obama plan for fighting a pandemic and then trashing Obama for not having left a plan", but that's what Trump does, produce so many failures you can't possibly remember and list them all.

And only for you saying "well the left and the right", this is imho a sad way to look at things. There is a reality beyond the left and the right. And in this reality, it does not boil down to "the left says this, the right says that and the truth is somewhere in the middle". This is just another rhetorical figure that does not stand the test of reality. The reality is within Bels posts, and breech's posts, and my posts, the reality is Trump failure on so many levels, and these are loads of objective Trump failures you can not possibly explain away.

Please this time also do not use the trick of simply ignoring most points made, reducing everything to one question you pose and then only accept one "correct" answer that proves you were right all along. Since you are willing to help other users find their way, let me point out that particular discussion-averse trait. 

[*bfine32*]

(07-04-2020, 03:41 PM)hollodero Wrote: Well, ok then. You sure are aware that it does in no way boil down to "Trump telling or not telling you to wear a mask", that it is about way more than just that, and hence your way to put it is a bit of a cheap rhetorical figure.

But ok, the way I see it I asked to check priorities and you apparently did. For the life of me I will never understand how you can reach the conclusions you reach, because the list of Trump failures is long and scary and you actually disputed none of the points made. I'm angry I forgot "trashing the Obama plan for fighting a pandemic and then trashing Obama for not having left a plan", but that's what Trump does, produce so many failures you can't possibly remember and list them all.

And only for you saying "well the left and the right", this is imho a sad way to look at things. There is a reality beyond the left and the right. And in this reality, it does not boil down to "the left says this, the right says that and the truth is somewhere in the middle". This is just another rhetorical figure that does not stand the test of reality. The reality is within Bels posts, and breech's posts, and my posts, the reality is Trump failure on so many levels, and these are loads of objective Trump failures you can not possibly explain away.

Please this time also do not use the trick of simply ignoring most points made, reducing everything to one question you pose and then only accept one "correct" answer that proves you were right all along. Since you are willing to help other users find their way, let me point out that particular discussion-averse trait. 

Well you did mention "or fear AOC" in the comment I replied to and I chose to ignore that as cheap rhetoric. So we can both be guilty.

I take my stance because I know where the true power lies and it's not in Executive policy decisions. We are a Nation of Checks and balances.  Every Governor in this nation could have mandated all the cool things that have been suggested. Trump constantly said he defers to the state Governors, even though he disagreed with many; like that one whose husband was "just playing" when he tried to put his boat in the lake. He also disputed the "heard mentality" when it was a batted around option. 

Here's the dirty truth. Over half this Nation hates Trump. Polls show that folks are going for Biden not because they like Biden, but because they dislike Trump. So his saying "don't wear masks' meant absolutely nothing to them; hell, it was probably more helpful than him saying wear masks. Furthermore the vast majority of Americans that don't hate Trump are bright enough to take a medical professional's guidance over a real estate mogul.  So even if you consider there is a population that Trump put at risk by what he said and failed to do; then I assert that population is small are Darwin may come into play.

I agree with a mandatory 14 day quarantine if positive. Is that something we want to mandate by federal law? I know in my state it was "recommended" and when the one dude in Bardstown tested positive and decided he wasn't going to quarantine the cops helped him see otherwise.

To simply look at one side of the coin is narrow-minded in my opinion. Federally mandated all the things you and others may have saved a few lives, but it very well could have killed the biggest economy, by far,  in the world. 

[GMDino]

Wouldn't it have been nice though if Trump had the ability to ignore the fact that half the country (or more) doesn't "like him" and actually been a leader rather than constantly arguing that the science was bad, he was right and that the virus would just disappear like a miracle?

This is the kind of thing many of us publicly feared when Trump was running for office...if he's not a good leader.  He's a guy who demands others do what he says rather than someone who can listen and learn.

People not "liking" him doesn't have a lot to do with the criticism he has received for his handling of the virus from day one.  His words and actions do though.

But those are easy to ignore if one comes from the angle that people are "too" critical of the leader of the United States when he bumbles and fumbles something that is affecting the entire United States.

[GMDino]

Florida man speaks with The Grim Reaper on the beach down south.

He tells Reaper that Joe and Hunter Biden went to China and brought the coronavirus back with them to the United States.

Can’t recall where he heard it. We may be doomed...pic.twitter.com/Wf1Tgfdw6a

— Rex Chapman?? (@RexChapman) July 4, 2020