Coronavirus

[*bfine32*]

Trump should make a Federal Law that everyone wear one of these:

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-04-2020, 04:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well you did mention "or fear AOC" in the comment I replied to and I chose to ignore that as cheap rhetoric. So we can both be guilty.

I take my stance because I know where the true power lies and it's not in Executive policy decisions. We are a Nation of Checks and balances.  Every Governor in this nation could have mandated all the cool things that have been suggested. Trump constantly said he defers to the state Governors, even though he disagreed with many; like that one whose husband was "just playing" when he tried to put his boat in the lake. He also disputed the "heard mentality" when it was a batted around option. 

Here's the dirty truth. Over half this Nation hates Trump. Polls show that folks are going for Biden not because they like Biden, but because they dislike Trump. So his saying "don't wear masks' meant absolutely nothing to them; hell, it was probably more helpful than him saying wear masks. Furthermore the vast majority of Americans that don't hate Trump are bright enough to take a medical professional's guidance over a real estate mogul.  So even if you consider there is a population that Trump put at risk by what he said and failed to do; then I assert that population is small are Darwin may come into play.

I agree with a mandatory 14 day quarantine if positive. Is that something we want to mandate by federal law? I know in my state it was "recommended" and when the one dude in Bardstown tested positive and decided he wasn't going to quarantine the cops helped him see otherwise.

To simply look at one side of the coin is narrow-minded in my opinion. Federally mandated all the things you and others may have saved a few lives, but it very well could have killed the biggest economy, by far,  in the world. 

Testing, contact tracing, self isolating, and social distancing wouldn’t have killed the economy and if started earlier when Trump was calling it a Democrat hoax may have prevented the shut down.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-04-2020, 04:15 PM)GMDino Wrote:

Florida man speaks with The Grim Reaper on the beach down south.

He tells Reaper that Joe and Hunter Biden went to China and brought the coronavirus back with them to the United States.

Can’t recall where he heard it. We may be doomed...pic.twitter.com/Wf1Tgfdw6a

— Rex Chapman?? (@RexChapman) July 4, 2020

 

I think that dude is trying to kill the virus with alcohol.

[*bfine32*]

(07-04-2020, 04:46 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I think that dude is trying to kill the virus with alcohol.

Grim Reaper enforcing Social Distancing....too funny. 

[*bfine32*]

(07-04-2020, 04:43 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Testing, contact tracing, self isolating, and social distancing wouldn’t have killed the economy and if started earlier when Trump was calling it a Democrat hoax may have prevented the shut down.

It most likely would have not, but there's also debate on how much it would have reduced the spread. I remember Faucci being asked this long ago.

WTS. I'll concede those would have helped although we disagree with whom the testing should have occurred. If folks were to limit their "blame" to those simple facts then no one could say folks are placing an undue amount of blame on Trump, but when folks blame every thing he says and does on the spread, then...

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-04-2020, 05:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It most likely would have not, but there's also debate on how much it would have reduced the spread. I remember Faucci being asked this long ago.

WTS. I'll concede those would have helped although we disagree with whom the testing should have occurred. If folks were to limit their "blame" to those simple facts then no one could say folks are placing an undue amount of blame on Trump, but when folks blame every thing he says and does on the spread, then...

At the very beginning, we needed to test international travelers coming into the country regardless of citizenship. Also, at the beginning this started during cold and flu season. We needed to test the sick to determine who had Covid 19 and not the flu or a cold. Because 70-80% of the infected have cold a flu symptoms while the remaining 20-30% are asymptomatic. So when tests are limited, you’ll get more bang for your buck testing symptomatic patients. It’s like fishing; you’ll catch more if you go where the fish are, not where they ain’t.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

On another note, since we started PCR testing we usually get 9-14 positive results per day. Thursday we had a new record of 23 for one day. Also, one of the nurses got rhabdomyolysis from working in the heat. Fortunately, she is doing well.

[*bfine32*]

(07-04-2020, 08:42 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: At the very beginning, we needed to test international travelers coming into the country regardless of citizenship. Also, at the beginning this started during cold and flu season. We needed to test the sick to determine who had Covid 19 and not the flu or a cold. Because 70-80% of the infected have cold a flu symptoms while the remaining 20-30% are asymptomatic. So when tests are limited, you’ll get more bang for your buck testing symptomatic patients. It’s like fishing; you’ll catch more if you go where the fish are, not where they ain’t.

We should have shut it down to anyone but citizens trying to get back home; admittedly the Xenophobe didn't go far enough by just shutting down travelers from the country of origin. If memory serves, there was a cruise ship with folks of many Nationalities that other countries that would not allow to dock, but we did. Who knows how many American lives that cost. 

[*jason*]

(07-04-2020, 09:51 PM)bfine32 Wrote: We should have shut it down to anyone but citizens trying to get back home; admittedly the Xenophobe didn't go far enough by just shutting down travelers from the country of origin. If memory serves, there was a cruise ship with folks of many Nationalities that other countries that would not allow to dock, but we did. Who knows how many American lives that cost. 

Here's the thing... No one can truly pin the virus making its way here on Trump. Wuhan is a commercial hub. I believe it has a population of 11 million. Whether anyone knew it or not there was community spread there in November of last year, and people were coming and going out of the city. People began arriving at hospitals with pnmonia that couldn't be treated... By the time anyone had any idea of what was happening, the toothpaste was already outta the tube. I can only criticize his leadership after the virus had taken hold in the US. His insistence on placing the blame on China is ridiculous as well.

[hollodero]

(07-04-2020, 04:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well you did mention "or fear AOC" in the comment I replied to and I chose to ignore that as cheap rhetoric. So we can both be guilty.

I feel this was a somewhat reduced, but overall not overly unfair representation of arguments made. "The radical leftists" and fear what they might do to the US are brought up quite often. And AOC is an also quite often mentioned poster child for those fears. I don't feel guilty at all for having it put that way.

(07-04-2020, 04:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I take my stance because I know where the true power lies and it's not in Executive policy decisions. We are a Nation of Checks and balances.  Every Governor in this nation could have mandated all the cool things that have been suggested.

This might be true, but it does not really take away from all the horrid mistakes Trump made in word and deed.

(07-04-2020, 04:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Here's the dirty truth. Over half this Nation hates Trump. Polls show that folks are going for Biden not because they like Biden, but because they dislike Trump.

Sure, and I find that perfectly understandable.

Again though, how many people hate Trump how intensely does not take away from the mistakes Trump made. This remark holds little argumentative value. I made quite a list of Trump failures, and they were imho not hyperbolic or unfair or fueled by my Trump hatred, but mainly descriptive in nature. He DID kill the pandemic response plan, he DID throw out ridiculous theories en masse, he DID... ah I made that long list already.

(07-04-2020, 04:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Furthermore the vast majority of Americans that don't hate Trump are bright enough to take a medical professional's guidance over a real estate mogul.

A vast majority? I disagree with that. There are many people who trust Trump blindly. It is not a fringe group.
Also, this too is a remark that does not really free said real estate mogul from any blame or responsibility. Your point seems to be "who believes this weird dude anyway", and this is quite a sad stance to have about an US president in the first place.
I mean, hardly any conservative would have felt inclined to ask "who is going to believe a Hollywood actor anyway" about Reagan.

(07-04-2020, 04:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: To simply look at one side of the coin is narrow-minded in my opinion. Federally mandated all the things you and others may have saved a few lives, but it very well could have killed the biggest economy, by far,  in the world. 

Yeah well, I look at the side of the coin that is represented by the graph that compares US infections to European infections. It is tough to explain that away with the US being so federalistic or so much more economy-driven or whatever and that it is not a failure in leadership at all.

[SunsetBengal]

(07-04-2020, 11:18 PM)hollodero Wrote: A vast majority? I disagree with that. There are many people who trust Trump blindly. It is not a fringe group.
Also, this too is a remark that does not really free said real estate mogul from any blame or responsibility. Your point seems to be "who believes this weird dude anyway", and this is quite a sad stance to have about an US president in the first place.
I mean, hardly any conservative would have felt inclined to ask "who is going to believe a Hollywood actor anyway" about Reagan.

He didn't say "a vast majority of Americans", he said " a vast majority of Americans that support Trump", a significant difference in connotation.  And furthermore, have you ever visited the States?  If not, you should not only admire the glorious cities, but also venture out into the countryside, you'll find a pretty stark difference in the temperament of the folks you encounter.  Both have their charms, as well as their drawbacks.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(07-04-2020, 09:51 PM)bfine32 Wrote: We should have shut it down to anyone but citizens trying to get back home; admittedly the Xenophobe didn't go far enough by just shutting down travelers from the country of origin. If memory serves, there was a cruise ship with folks of many Nationalities that other countries that would not allow to dock, but we did. Who knows how many American lives that cost. 

What good does a travel ban on non-citizens do if citizens are allowed to return without testing, isolating, or quarantining?

None.

Viruses don’t care what your citizenship status is.

As to the cruise ship, I assume you’re referring to the Grand Princess that Trump didn’t want to dock and double our numbers (ha ha).

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/03/19/us/grand-princess-cruise-passengers-coronavirus.amp.html

That ship is a microcosm of our failed national response; lack of testing, lack of coordination, lack of standardization, lack of organization, lack of planning, lack of leadership.

This risk of infection to the US didn’t come from foreign nationals, but from our own citizens returning home without a consistent, organized, and standardized protocol for their safe reintegration to the general public.

[Dill]

(07-04-2020, 05:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It most likely would have not, but there's also debate on how much it would have reduced the spread. I remember Faucci being asked this long ago.

WTS. I'll concede those would have helped although we disagree with whom the testing should have occurred. If folks were to limit their "blame" to those simple facts then no one could say folks are placing an undue amount of blame on Trump, but when folks blame every thing he says and does on the spread, then...

I don't think anyone actually does that.

We hear blame heaped on Trump every day, yes, because he continues to flout his own administrations recommendations on mask use, keeps claiming it will just "go away soon," confuses his own administrations messaging--all this after destroying his own CDC and refusing to take early lock down measures.

Tomorrow he will continue this. Maybe again claim more testing explains the rising numbers, though more testing doesn't mean that in Wuhan or Italy.  Then people will complain, and Trump defenders will attack them. But no responsible journalist or commentator will be connecting EVERY THING he says to the spread.

Or if you think that is the case, you ought to provide an example.

[Dill]

(07-04-2020, 02:22 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This is a well thought out post. My point remains the Left has something to gain by making this as much Trump's fault as they can and the Right must try to down play it. The truth is most likely somewhere in the middle. 

If Trump has actually done the things he has been accused of--reducing the CDC by 80% last year, ignoring warnings in Jan/Feb., calling the pandemic a hoax, scoffing at masks, garbling national logistics, confusing/ambiguating his own doctors' recommendations, daily making false or misleading statements ("It's under control; anyone can get a test who wants one"), stopping or reducing testing, backing governors who open their states early, or never close them down--

and if the Right continues to scoff at masks and testing and other "communist" restrictions on our FREEDOM, and how the "hoax" is designed to help Dems win . . .
then I think the truth is most likely somewhere towards "the Left."

Trump is the one who looks at every issue and person through his politicized lens. How can the pandemic hurt his election? How can this or that move help him win anyway. Does letting Fauci or other doctors speak publicly help or hurt his elections chances? Same for testing, does it make him look good or bad?

Mightn't there be a few Democrats who actually want to reduce the virus, and will trade lost votes for saved lives? I'm skeptical of equating them with Trump, given that they don't flout facts the way he does, don't hire yes men, don't rattle on in public speeches about what helps them get elected and what doesn't, and generally appear more interested in finding out and communicating how much the virus has spread and how to fight it.

[BmorePat87]

My wife wanted to get out of the house so she got us tickets to go tubbing in West Virginia (about an hour away from Baltimore). She said the company claimed they were enforcing social distancing so she felt safe.

We got there and apparently social distancing does not actually exist in WV. There were no markers on the ground to space out, no requirement to wear masks, 50 people made to stand together on a patio and watch a video, and the bus to the river was packed.

We did see a pool with disinfectant that they dropped the life vests in, so I guess that was what they were referring to.

It was a huge difference from what we have in Maryland where everyone has to wear a mask while out. I noticed that the only other people who wore masks on the bus ride back were these 20 somethings wearing Maryland hats/bathing suits.

It sucks knowing that your state is trying to do the right thing and then a neighboring state buys into the bullshit and just says "**** it".

[hollodero]

(07-04-2020, 11:39 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: He didn't say "a vast majority of Americans", he said " a vast majority of Americans that support Trump", a significant difference in connotation.

Yeah I took it that way, and it makes my point even clearer. Imho a vast majority of Trump supporters does not put anyone else's words (including a medical expert's word) above that of a "real estate mogul", this assumption of bfine seemed quite challengeable. I'm sure many do, but a vast majority, I wouldn't go that far.

(07-04-2020, 11:39 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: And furthermore, have you ever visited the States?  If not, you should not only admire the glorious cities, but also venture out into the countryside, you'll find a pretty stark difference in the temperament of the folks you encounter.  Both have their charms, as well as their drawbacks.

I was to New Orleans once, long time ago. I never assumed I "know Americans now" because of that experience.
When it comes to city vs. countryside, even though my country is quite tiny we have that contrast as well, and it is a stark one.

[SunsetBengal]

(07-05-2020, 08:01 AM)hollodero Wrote: Yeah I took it that way, and it makes my point even clearer. Imho a vast majority of Trump supporters does not put anyone else's words (including a medical expert's word) above that of a "real estate mogul", this assumption of bfine seemed quite challengeable. I'm sure many do, but a vast majority, I wouldn't go that far.



I was to New Orleans once, long time ago. I never assumed I "know Americans now" because of that experience.
When it comes to city vs. countryside, even though my country is quite tiny we have that contrast as well, and it is a stark one.

To bolded;  I don't know, Hollo.  My parents are pretty staunch Trump supporters, and my wife and I can't even get them to join us at a fine dining establishment, to celebrate our wedding anniversary.  I realize that my parents are but one example, but even though they support the President, they also take care to listen to what experts in their respective fields have to say.  That practice may vary among both supporters and detractors of our current leader, as I have taken note of people from both factions who believe and disavow the directives of the medical experts.

From what I have witnessed, their seems to be a strong correlation from population density of where one resides, and perceived adherence to the directives of the medical experts.  For example, my parents live in a densely populated subdivision, in a city of over 100K, they wear their masks any time that they venture from their home.  My wife and I live in the country, outside of a small town of around 5K, we feel comfortable going to the grocery store, or dining at familiar restaurants without our masks.

[hollodero]

(07-05-2020, 02:08 AM)Dill Wrote: If Trump has actually done the things he has been accused of--reducing the CDC by 80% last year, ignoring warnings in Jan/Feb., calling the pandemic a hoax, scoffing at masks, garbling national logistics, confusing/ambiguating his own doctors' recommendations, daily making false or misleading statements ("It's under control; anyone can get a test who wants one"), stopping or reducing testing, backing governors who open their states early, or never close them down--

and if the Right continues to scoff at masks and testing and other "communist" restrictions on our FREEDOM, and how the "hoax" is designed to help Dems win . . .
then I think the truth is most likely somewhere towards "the Left."

Ah, you also started a short list. I mean, it's a bit frustrating, to face the counter-argument how Trump always gets blamed unfairly and that hence every critizism of him is overblown in nature.

So I suggest to make one more list of perceived Trump covid failures, and bfine or whoever can point out which of the critizism is non-factual, unfair and overblown.

- He constantly sports theories of how the pandemic will go away miraculously
- He repeatedly claimed or suggested it was under control when it clearly was not under control
- He did not take it seriously for a long time, called it a hoax (later blamed his briefer) and reacted way late
- He recommended a drug that explicitly was not recommended by medical experts
- He theorized about injecting disinfectants (and about UV radiation) as treatment
- He kneecapped Obama's pandemic plan and then complained about Obama not having left a plan
- He ignored multiple warnings about being ill prepared for a pandemic
- He suggested to cut down testing for testing makes the numbers look bad
- He claimed testing in the US is far bigger and better than anywhere else
- He accused health care workers of scheming to steal masks
- He often didn't wear masks (it looks bad, he doesn't want to give the press the satisfaction), mocked Biden for wearing a mask
- He encouraged protesters against his own admin's measures and recommendations
- He held and will hold rallies without masks when medical experts strongly recommended to avoid large gatherings without masks
- He called it "Kung flu" and suggested the virus was man-made and even set out intentionally
- He handcuffs the CDC, including not allowing them to go public
- He went in open opposition to Fauci on twitter
- He caused some chaos in purchasing protective gear (including a federal seizure of shipments) and refused federal leadership on that issue

Now that is in no way a complete list of my grievances with Trump in that time. There are many things I deem a mistake, but that might at least be regarded controversial. These things on this list though, they do not even seem controversial to me. But as I said, bfine or whoever is free to find the hyperbolic, unfair or wrong points made on this list, therefore giving credibility to the "well, critizism arises just because so many people irrationally hate Trump" argument.

Lastly, I'd be at a loss not to mention the mind-boggling falsehoods he put out that were not listed here, which either are cynical lies or signs of a lack of the most basic understanding of things. There's a "if we don't open up soon, suicides will by far exceed covid deaths"-saying. I personally love his "I ALWAYS knew it was a pandemic, long before the WHO did"-lie - while also claiming that "nobody" knew that this could happen. Also everybody who wants a test can get a test, how AWFUL Obama did with the H1N1 virus, that NY implemented a lottery on who can live and who needs to die, that Pelosi danced in Chinatown... these are so many, each one too small to put on the list, but in the sum, it is abhorrent. Therefore one last point:

- He tells abhorrent lies


And if I forgot something important on this list, tell me, I sure did; I will update it then.

[hollodero]

(07-05-2020, 08:57 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: To bolded;  I don't know, Hollo.  My parents are pretty staunch Trump supporters, and my wife and I can't even get them to join us at a fine dining establishment, to celebrate our wedding anniversary.  I realize that my parents are but one example, but even though they support the President, they also take care to listen to what experts in their respective fields have to say.  That practice may vary among both supporters and detractors of our current leader, as I have taken note of people from both factions who believe and disavow the directives of the medical experts.

From what I have witnessed, their seems to be a strong correlation from population density of where one resides, and perceived adherence to the directives of the medical experts.  For example, my parents live in a densely populated subdivision, in a city of over 100K, they wear their masks any time that they venture from their home.  My wife and I live in the country, outside of a small town of around 5K, we feel comfortable going to the grocery store, or dining at familiar restaurants without our masks.

I did not intend to claim that a vast majority of Trump supporters does not listen to medical experts; I would not say that. I just don't believe the opposite either, that a vast majority knows not to take a real estate mogul too seriously, which is what bfine suggested.
As a small example, medical experts warn about large gatherings without wearing masks and people still attend Trump rallies. (Or go on protests without masks, to not make this point too partisan - I just ignore that for the sake of the point the discussion's at.)
From personal internet experience (meaning, there's a big grain of salt involved), quite a few people believe that Trump never tells a lie. I have a hunch these people do not care about recommendations from Fauci or anyone else if Trump contradicts them.

As for your parents, I guess they are very cautious and I think that is good. Generally, I believe that as soon as people are within the high risk group, they tend to lean more towards caution. It's imho mainly the younger folk that ignore the threat and are in danger of unwittingly spreading the virus along.

And I fully agree that it is very different on the countryside and the threat is way bigger in large cities.

[Belsnickel]

(07-04-2020, 11:04 PM)jason Wrote: Here's the thing... No one can truly pin the virus making its way here on Trump. Wuhan is a commercial hub. I believe it has a population of 11 million. Whether anyone knew it or not there was community spread there in November of last year, and people were coming and going out of the city. People began arriving at hospitals with pnmonia that couldn't be treated... By the time anyone had any idea of what was happening, the toothpaste was already outta the tube. I can only criticize his leadership after the virus had taken hold in the US. His insistence on placing the blame on China is ridiculous as well.

Reports came out a while ago that said Trump had been warned of the potential for this well before it happened, but instead of heeding those warnings and helping China out, he cut our resources in China, including the one person embedded in their public health system that we had whose job it was to give us early warnings about something like this.

He absolutely can shoulder some blame for it making its way here and can be criticized for actions before the spread. Sure, his attitude towards the preventative measures recommended by the CDC have emboldened people to ignore them enough that we have zero chance of reaching herd immunity in this country, and we should criticize him for that, but we can't forget that in his effort to do whatever it was he was trying to do, he greatly diminished our capabilities to respond to this pandemic and he made policy decisions that helped this outbreak become the global pandemic is became.