(02-08-2016, 10:34 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You are correct: I have no problem with people, including children, to accept the word of Christ without question or doubt.
What one should question is the best way they he or she can follow/share that doctrine.
That's not what indoctrinate means
in·doc·tri·nate
inˈdäktrəˌnāt/ verb
teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.
"broadcasting was a vehicle for indoctrinating the masses"
synonyms: brainwash, propagandize, proselytize,
(02-08-2016, 10:41 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: That's not what indoctrinate means
in·doc·tri·nate
inˈdäktrəˌnāt/ verb
teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.
"broadcasting was a vehicle for indoctrinating the masses"
synonyms: brainwash, propagandize, proselytize,
Yes. A Christian should accept the doctrine (word/beliefs) of Christ without criticism. There was a reason the Apostles often refereed to Christ as teacher.
(02-08-2016, 10:46 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yes. A Christian should accept the doctrine (word/beliefs) of Christ without criticism. There was a reason the Apostles often refereed to Christ as teacher.
Not sure where the confusion is here.
Accepting something yourself is something completely different than essentially brainwashing someone at a young age. I don't know how you don't understand that.
(02-08-2016, 10:48 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Accepting something yourself is something completely different than essentially brainwashing someone at a young age. I don't know how you don't understand that.
Parents instill their values all the time in their children. How do you think adults form their beliefs, values, and norms?
I see you are intent on using the word brainwashing, as that shines acceptance of the doctrine in the worst light possible. Brainwashing is associated with torture or various stress techniques. No one should be forced to accept Christ as their personal savior, it should only happen once they are mature enough to make the choice on their own.
(02-08-2016, 10:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Parents instill their values all the time in their children. How do you think adults form their beliefs, values, and norms?
I see you are intent on using the word brainwashing, as that shines acceptance of the doctrine in the worst light possible. Brainwashing is associated with torture or various stress techniques. No one should be forced to accept Christ as their personal savior, it should only happen once they are mature enough to make the choice on their own.
I understand perfectly.
I think adults form their beliefs on their personal experience. To manipulate someone into believing the same as you is horrible. You should want your child to come to the same beliefs as you through critical thinking, and not indoctrination. Oh, and indoctrination is a synonym of brainwashing. Bringing children up through indoctrination is forcing someone to accept that belief. I don't know how you can't understand this.
(02-08-2016, 11:13 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: I think adults form their beliefs on their personal experience. To manipulate someone into believing the same as you is horrible. You should want your child to come to the same beliefs as you through critical thinking, and not indoctrination. Oh, and indoctrination is a synonym of brainwashing. Bringing children up through indoctrination is forcing someone to accept that belief. I don't know how you can't understand this.
First of all Benton was the first to use the term indoctrination and stated I was content with such practices. I have no idea where he came to this conclusion, but apparently it was enough for you to run with in an attempt to show why parents shouldn't teach their children the word.
I was kind enough to use the definition of the the word indoctrinate that you provided when you asserted I didn't understand the word. I took this given definition and said sure and gave my reasoning. That apparently made too much sense so you had to introduce the terms brainwashing, manipulate, and forcing.
As I have said to both you and Benton: tools such as VBS are important in bringing your child up to believe in the word of Christ, but I am not content with them alone. I also mentioned church attendance and personal actions. Nowhere have I ever said or will I ever say someone should be forced to believe. You do realize folks are often actually counseled (gasp) when they choose to accept Christ to ensure they have done so of their own choosing.
As i said I understand fine and your goal is to paint faith in the worst light possible, as you have demonstrated many times, I have no idea why you feel compelled to do so; nor do I understand Benton's motivation.
(02-08-2016, 11:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: First of all Benton was the first to use the term indoctrination and stated I was content with such practices. I have no idea where he came to this conclusion, but apparently it was enough for you to run with in an attempt to show why parents shouldn't teach their children the word.
I was kind enough to use the definition of the the word indoctrinate that you provided when you asserted I didn't understand the word. I took this given definition and said sure and gave my reasoning. That apparently made too much sense so you had to introduce the terms brainwashing, manipulate, and forcing.
As I have said to both you and Benton: tools such as VBS are important in bringing your child up to believe in the word of Christ, but I am not content with them alone. I also mentioned church attendance and personal actions. Nowhere have I ever said or will I ever say someone should be forced to believe. You do realize folks are often actually counseled (gasp) when they choose to accept Christ to ensure they have done so of their own choosing.
As i said I understand fine and your goal is to paint faith in the worst light possible, as you have demonstrated many times, I have no idea why you feel compelled to do so; nor do I understand Benton's motivation.
Teaching children the word, and indoctrinate them is two different things that you apparently can't grasp.
The reasoning you gave didn't make any sense, because accepting something w/o doubt isn't indoctrination, so i had to dumb it down for you and use something that you could understand.
Both Benton and I clearly see that things like VBS is indoctrination (because it is). Indoctrination especially at a young age is essentially forcing them to believe it. It's brainwashing pretty much to a tee. Teaching your child about your faith is one thing, but making them go to a camp to brainwash them is totally different.
My goal isn't to paint faith in the worst light possible, it's just to show the reality of it.
Not life threatening and not a sign that they need therapy either. Most kids lie about something. A lot of adults too. We don't send them away to get "fixed" for it.
Killing animals? Sure.
Graffiti? No.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(02-08-2016, 06:47 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I see what you are attempting to compare here but you are making it out like its some common thing for an over the top drastic measure. There are weird people in society. Maybe some parents want their children to grow up In their church. While you or I may choose differently we shouldn't be telling them what's right or wrong. Same reason people home school vs public education.
Sorry but if my kids started acting strange I would get it sorted out. Would I go all 1880's on them like you are advocating ..... No.... But I will address the problems that we see in our family.
Then you have no problems with a society that allows grown men to marry children? I mean with the parents consent of course.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(02-08-2016, 07:04 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Do you consider same sex attraction to be wrong? (I will say I was surprised that Dino admitted that he did)
That is how the question was posed and pretty sure it is the crux of the discussion. With this ruling a parent that does consider same sex attraction to be wrong and possibly hurtful to their child can no longer have counseling covered under their insurance.
(02-08-2016, 05:11 PM)bfine32 Wrote: There was no mention of disagree in your question.
So: would you send your child to therapy for something YOU considered to be wrong?
(02-08-2016, 05:18 PM)GMDino Wrote: Not unless it was life threatening.
Drugs/alcohol abuse? Sure.
Self cutting? You bet.
Sex before marriage? No.
Sexual preference? Nope.
I threw in sexual preference because it was the topic at hand. It does not matter to me if my children are gay or not.
Just that they are well adjusted and happy.
Sorry for the miscommunication. That was on me for not being clearer.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
This whole fiasco of 'Indoctrination" is really a matter and mix of semantics and intellectual dishonesty. I find myself agreeing more with bfine on this matter.
The big problem I see when this issue of indoctrination comes up is that people who are against indoctrination want to criticize it as the same as brainwashing someone when I don't believe that's really the case. As bfine said, brainwashing is a more harsher way of "teaching" someone something which often involves methods of torture and force. Basically, brainwashing usually has some type of ulterior motive or personal agenda behind it whereas indoctrination is about teaching for the purpose of believing a specific idea, rather than just teaching for the purpose of "general education" or some type of motive that goes beyond the belief (ie brainwashing as a war tactic).
Brownshoe, you mentioned that indoctrination was a synonym of brainwashing as if the two were exactly the same thing. Just because words are considered synonymous with each other doesn't mean that they are exactly the same, but rather have somewhat of a similar connotation to them. You know what else is synonymous with brainwashing? Persuasion. So then if that's the case you're guilty of trying to brainwash bfine into your arguments here in this thread because you are trying to persuade him to believe the opposing position that you're arguing for. In fact we are all guilty of trying to brainwash others whenever we try to persuade anyone of anything............ obviously that's not reality.
You see, this is the problem with people quickly pulling up Google and searching for words that are synonymous with other words as an attempt to try and prove a point. Indoctrination is NOT brainwashing. Indoctrination is the specific teaching of a personal belief. The reason people have a problem with indoctrination is because the word is most widely used in connection with religion and thus they criticize it for that connection and call it "brainwashing". The funny thing however is that indoctrination used to be more synonymous with the words "to teach", but in modern times the word has become distorted and people view it as "brainwashing", when all it really is, is teaching someone a belief that you believe as truth.
(02-09-2016, 12:00 AM)GMDino Wrote: Then you have no problems with a society that allows grown men to marry children? I mean with the parents consent of course.
Way to jump to illegal activities. Not quite the same as your kid telling you they are something they are not.
(02-08-2016, 10:41 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: That's not what indoctrinate means
in·doc·tri·nate
inˈdäktrəˌnāt/ verb
teach (a person or group) to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.
"broadcasting was a vehicle for indoctrinating the masses"
synonyms: brainwash, propagandize, proselytize,
This is exactly what public education does on social issues.
This is about the dumbest argument I've ever seen on here.
Of course people are going to teach their kids to be like them.
Heck, they wouldn't even have to teach them, as kids will emulate anyway.
For religious brainwashing to take place, there would have to be actions taking place like withholding food until conformity.
Sure, withholding emotional support could be construed as such, but likely create an antisocial child, more than anything.
For those against "indoctrination", what would you have a parent do ?
Do you want them to teach of all religions and let them choose ?
Even satanism ?
(02-09-2016, 12:10 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Way to jump to illegal activities. Not quite the same as your kid telling you they are something they are not.
Because YOU know what your child is? Simply because you are the parent?
I know MANY parents who made bad choices in the "best interest" of their children.
This kind of conceit comes through quite often in your posts.
Your anger and ego will always reveal your true self.
(02-09-2016, 12:38 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: This is about the dumbest argument I've ever seen on here.
Of course people are going to teach their kids to be like them.
Heck, they wouldn't even have to teach them, as kids will emulate anyway.
For religious brainwashing to take place, there would have to be actions taking place like withholding food until conformity.
Sure, withholding emotional support could be construed as such, but likely create an antisocial child, more than anything.
For those against "indoctrination", what would you have a parent do ?
Do you want them to teach of all religions and let them choose ?
Even satanism ?
C'mon...
Quote:There are Jews in the world there are Buddhists
There are Hindus and Mormons, and then
There are those that follow Mohammed, but
I've never been one of them
I'm a Roman Catholic
And have been since before I was born
And the one thing they say about Catholics is
They'll take you as soon as you're warm You don't have to be a six-footer
You don't have to have a great brain
You don't have to have any clothes on you're
A Catholic the moment Dad came
And when the child grows up and decides they have their own ideas? Too many parents think that means they did something "wrong".
Always dig Python.
But anyway...
Kids will grow up and get their own ideas.
A parent at least knows they have a base.
A lot of kids will rebel, just because.
If a parent feels they failed then they either know they didn't give much effort, or just have low self-esteem and self-loathing issues anyway.
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