Cuties

[Benton]

(09-11-2020, 01:41 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: .


Not a show, a film.

).
)

Sorry, was referring to toddlers and tiaras.

[Dill]

(09-11-2020, 01:41 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: I haven't seen it either, but I saw the trailer yesterday and what is in the trailer, as mentioned above, doesn't look any different from those TLC shows or what you see in a schoolyard at recess (my wife mentions often, how ridiculously *10* year olds dress nowadays and she's only 27, so it's not like she's a curmudgeon or anything).

I also think someone with an agenda wrote the imdb parents guide, as it constantly states that, "Twerking," occurs throughout the film. That single word set a ton of people off.

My POV on these things are that art is art and it is subjective to everyone; get the context and meaning behind it before condemning it (unless it's a snuff film set out to do just that, like that Norwegian film from a few years back; that has no artistic value, IMO) and if the film is blatantly sexualizing children and promoting it, then go ahead and tear it down.

But if it is a deconstruction on what children values are shown as in today's world and it is a critique on liberal Western Culture, as opposed to conservative Muslim Culture, then that is what the film should have its merits based upon.

Either way, I don't (and never will) have Netflix, so I'll never know.

lol yes you will. I am going to watch it this evening with my wife and our renter, who is Haitian. She helps with the nuances in French.
Anyway, I'll report back tomorrow. 

PS just watched the opening sequence, which includes a prayer meeting of hajibbed Muslim women, who are reminded there will be more women than men in hell.  No twerking so far.

[Vas Deferens]

(09-11-2020, 11:04 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I remember a similar stink over the move "Kids", which came out in the mid to late nineties.  It basically followed varying groups of teenagers meandering around NYC with zero parental supervision having sex, getting STD's, doing drugs and drinking.  I kind of got the uproar but when you watch the movie it certainly wasn't promoting any of that and was basically shining a light on these kids who live their lives with no supervision.  So the message of the movie was not a positive one and certainly didn't promote the behavior.

Great flick.  Big harmony fan over here.  Finally caught the Beach Bum and thought there were some really good scenes.  No spring breakers though.  

[samhain]

(09-11-2020, 11:04 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I remember a similar stink over the move "Kids", which came out in the mid to late nineties.  It basically followed varying groups of teenagers meandering around NYC with zero parental supervision having sex, getting STD's, doing drugs and drinking.  I kind of got the uproar but when you watch the movie it certainly wasn't promoting any of that and was basically shining a light on these kids who live their lives with no supervision.  So the message of the movie was not a positive one and certainly didn't promote the behavior.

Now, having said all that, this movie is a bit different IMO.  I get the filmmakers stated intent, that she was shedding a light on the over sexualization of pre-pubescent girls.  But doing that by making a movie the sexualizes pre-pubescent girls may not be the best way to convey this.  Also, the film's title skeeves me out big time.  So it's a bit of a catch 22 for this filmmaker and I get that, but the way it was marketed, the name of the film, the use of actual pre-pubescent girls in the film, all of this basically creates what you are purporting to condemn.  When trying to make a film about such an insanely touchy subject you really have to be careful about every aspect of the film, from conception to marketing and, in many ways, a very poor job of this was done in several areas.

I was a teenager myself when I saw that movie.  It's hard to imagine it being more than 20 years old.  You don't see or hear about it much anymore.  None of it seemed like a big deal when I was watching it back then, but later on (like 5 years ago or so) when I saw it somewhere, it definitely registered as a bit more controversial.  

An aside, there was a song on that movie's soundtrack by a band called Folk Implosion called "Natural One".  It was all over the radio in the mid 90's.  Like everywhere.  Now it seems to have evaporated into thin air on streaming sites.  Really strange.

[Dill]

(09-11-2020, 03:03 PM)samhain Wrote: I was a teenager myself when I saw that movie.  It's hard to imagine it being more than 20 years old.  You don't see or hear about it much anymore.  None of it seemed like a big deal when I was watching it back then, but later on (like 5 years ago or so) when I saw it somewhere, it definitely registered as a bit more controversial.  

An aside, there was a song on that movie's soundtrack by a band called Folk Implosion called "Natural One".  It was all over the radio in the mid 90's.  Like everywhere.  Now it seems to have evaporated into thin air on streaming sites.  Really strange.

Well, I watched Cuties last night. I thought it was "ok," not quite as good as Kids.

Of interest to me were--

1. the immigrant's perspective--the parents /family elders of the protagonist were raised to adulthood in Senegalese villages. Suddenly they are supposed to guide children in contemporary Paris, surrounded by scantily clad women and girls and videos of women twerking. This is beyond their means. (To tell the truth, it is beyond mine, as well.) Children spend hours away from home in schools where "fitting in" pulls them away from village codes and Islam, while they are only a cell phone click away from pornographic images. 

2. The preteen perspective--the director helps us view a series of discoveries through the eyes of an 11 year old girl and her friends. One finds a used condom in a park and blows it up like a balloon. Dressed as sexily as she is, she didn't know what a condom was. Her horrified friends take her home and wash out here mouth with soap, rubbing her tongue with a toothbrush. The girls see videos of sexy dances and given a natural interest in dancing, try to imitate what they see, with little sense of how men will really react to them. The world today is SO different from my childhood in the 50s and early 60s, where the coolest luckiest guy in the school was the one whose older brother had some Playboys.

If 1-2 might interest you, then I do recommend the film.

On the negative side--

3. At several points I did not find the protagonists behavior adequately motivated; she steals a fistful of Euros from her mother to buy dance costumes for her friends, and a cell phone from an older cousin; when he discovers she has it and attempts to get it back, she locks herself into the bathroom, takes a picture of her girl parts, and publishes it. For which she receives ill treatment from the boys at school and her girlfriends kick her out of the dance group. The purported cause is her anguish over the father bringing a second wife from Senegal, which is greatly stressing her mother. Still, that's a pretty big jump for an 11 year old Muslim girl. Perhaps that was a crude, immature attempt to use her newly recognized sexual power to affect her social environment? Hard to believe that, however hurt she felt, she could not suspect the negative consequences for the reputation and friendships that meant so much to her.

4. I shouldn't be comparing this to Parasite, the last really good film I saw. But in that film there were so many frames I thought could be just beautiful photographs in their own right because of the care taken in composition and lighting. There weren't really any frames like that in Cuties. There were three or four genuinely interesting scenes though (secretly watching twerk videos during a prayer meeting, the final jump roping) which I thought showed the director's promise.

The climactic moment of the film comes when the girls are competing in a loosely organized local dance contest in a park, and as the girl realizes many in the audience are booing and thumbs downing their performance (while some nasty old men applaud), she freezes, breaks down crying, and runs a way. The stripper like actions the girls performed are indeed shocking, but clumsily done and presented as shocking, not cool or cute. 

As far as the "boycott" over the film. No, I am not down with that. The value of the film is that it focuses on, exposes, an aspect of contemporary first world life that has become normalized with disturbing effects.  The boycott attacks the effects as degenerate, it seems, while ignoring more complex root problems, perhaps in a manner that allows them to continue unquestioned.

[Millhouse]

I dont have a problem with the boycott of this film. The dance scene at the end (as described by an article I was reading) was as if it was filmed for pedos to flock oveer to Netflix to watch it, but "it's ok" because the of the main protagonist of the movie is a muslim black immigrant girl.

I understand the point the movie was trying to make, but it could have been made without the 12 year old girls doing a stripper dance scene. And for that reason, it was a poor decision by Netflix.

[Dill]

(09-13-2020, 01:51 PM)Millhouse Wrote: I dont have a problem with the boycott of this film. The dance scene at the end (as described by an article I was reading) was as if it was filmed for pedos to flock oveer to Netflix to watch it, but "it's ok" because the of the main protagonist of the movie is a muslim black immigrant girl.

I understand the point the movie was trying to make, but it could have been made without the 12 year old girls doing a stripper dance scene. And for that reason, it was a poor decision by Netflix.

I think its "ok" because, as I said above,  "it focuses on, exposes, an aspect of contemporary first world life that has become normalized with disturbing effects."  

And I don't know at all that the point could have made without making it the way this director did. Could Saving Private Ryan have made its point without showing any blood?

You are judging "how" the dance scene was filmed without having seen it?  

Muslim black immigrant girl = ok to include dance scene for pedos??

[Millhouse]

(09-13-2020, 04:34 PM)Dill Wrote: I think its "ok" because, as I said above,  "it focuses on, exposes, an aspect of contemporary first world life that has become normalized with disturbing effects."  

And I don't know at all that the point could have made without making it the way this director did. Could Saving Private Ryan have made its point without showing any blood?

You are judging "how" the dance scene was filmed without having seen it?  

Muslim black immigrant girl = ok to include dance scene for pedos??

I did see a clip of it, and reconfirmed what I was reading about it. 

I simply disagree with you, regardless of what the movie focuses on. Redo that dance scene with more appropriate camera shots since they are 12 year olds, then the same point would have been made and I wouldnt be here wasting my time talkin about some foreign flick because Netflix, which I sub to, decided to pick up.

[Dill]

(09-13-2020, 05:01 PM)Millhouse Wrote: I did see a clip of it, and reconfirmed what I was reading about it. 

I simply disagree with you, regardless of what the movie focuses on. Redo that dance scene with more appropriate camera shots since they are 12 year olds, then the same point would have been made and I wouldnt be here wasting my time talkin about some foreign flick because Netflix, which I sub to, decided to pick up.

Well, we are talking about the ever-changing relation of art to morality and cultural norms, and how the first world appears through the eyes of people out side the US, from a developing country.

I hope that doesn't seem a waste of time.

I add that if one views the film from the get go through a frame expecting "more appropriate camera shots," then quite possibly the fresh vision it offers is totally lost. And we aren't "wasting our time" in the US talking about it. I doubt that vision can appear in a single clip.

[Belsnickel]

I'm glad I ignore popular culture as much as possible.

[Dill]

(09-14-2020, 12:57 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm glad I ignore popular culture as much as possible.

Difficult to understand the political world in this age of globalization without some knowledge of how "popular culture" shapes people's views and values, not just here in the US, but world wide.

Essential differences between nations/cultures obscured or reduced by abstract economic models become very concrete when approached from the cultural angle.

"Soft Power" turns out to be a real thing.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-14-2020, 12:57 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm glad I ignore popular culture as much as possible.

You and me both, brother. 

[CJD]

I think the message and overall intention behind the movie was admirable but, from what I've read, the execution was absolutely abysmal, bordering on psychopathic.

I won't condemn the filmmakers for doing what they felt was right to draw attention to what they believe is a societal issue, but I have no intention of watching that movie.

I think the best comparison I've heard about it was that Netflix show 13 Reasons Why. The point of the show was to raise awareness about teenage suicide but, due to its graphic nature and explicit details and story lines, it has been correlated with an increase in teenage suicide.

I wouldn't be surprised if Cuties leads to a similar correlation with child pornography issues.

I can't pass a full sweeping condemnation of the movie without watching it which, like I said, I have no intention of doing, but I hope it had some positive impact in some way...

I think it'd be worth Netflix noting who watches that movie far more than average (as it has scenes that would definitely be masturbation fodder for pedophiles) but that gets into some privacy issues and a whole lot of other things like that...sigh. What a dumb movie to make.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-15-2020, 04:52 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I think the message and overall intention behind the movie was admirable but, from what I've read, the execution was absolutely abysmal, bordering on psychopathic.

I won't condemn the filmmakers for doing what they felt was right to draw attention to what they believe is a societal issue, but I have no intention of watching that movie.

I think the best comparison I've heard about it was that Netflix show 13 Reasons Why. The point of the show was to raise awareness about teenage suicide but, due to its graphic nature and explicit details and story lines, it has been correlated with an increase in teenage suicide.

I wouldn't be surprised if Cuties leads to a similar correlation with child pornography issues.

I can't pass a full sweeping condemnation of the movie without watching it which, like I said, I have no intention of doing, but I hope it had some positive impact in some way...

I think it'd be worth Netflix noting who watches that movie far more than average (as it has scenes that would definitely be masturbation fodder for pedophiles) but that gets into some privacy issues and a whole lot of other things like that...sigh. What a dumb movie to make.

Without having seen the movie (and probably won't), I think it'd be fair to say a major problem with people's opinion on the movie stems from how it was marketed which is most likely not the film's creator's fault.

[CJD]

(09-15-2020, 04:54 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Without having seen the movie (and probably won't), I think it'd be fair to say a major problem with people's opinion on the movie stems from how it was marketed which is most likely not the film's creator's fault.

I watched a breakdown/discussion video from a youtuber I follow who I trust isn't lying or misrepresenting what she is seeing and she seemed generally disgusted by the volume of sexually explicit scenes in the movie. She even shows a variety of the scenes during her discussion. I also watched the "finale" dance scene on youtube and...jeez...

I get what the movie makers were trying to do. Those sexually explicit scenes are supposed to make you uncomfortable because it's an 11 year old girl doing it. You're supposed to see it as a failing of society that little girls have this pressure to be sexy placed upon them at such a young age. 
But the people who don't feel uncomfortable during those scenes are exactly the problem haha. 

I hate reacting to something I haven't personally seen, which is why I put so many qualifying statements in my post, but I just...I have absolutely no desire to watch 11 year olds twerking, even if it is portrayed as a bad thing in the movie.

I must officially be old now, projecting concern over something I haven't seen XD.

[NATI BENGALS]

Dance Mom’s has been on since 2011 according to google.

Not saying this isn’t a problem. But this is a distraction the right would love to talk about right now. Especially the Qmoron group

[Dill]

(09-15-2020, 05:05 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I watched a breakdown/discussion video from a youtuber I follow who I trust isn't lying or misrepresenting what she is seeing and she seemed generally disgusted by the volume of sexually explicit scenes in the movie. She even shows a variety of the scenes during her discussion. I also watched the "finale" dance scene on youtube and...jeez...

I get what the movie makers were trying to do. Those sexually explicit scenes are supposed to make you uncomfortable because it's an 11 year old girl doing it. You're supposed to see it as a failing of society that little girls have this pressure to be sexy placed upon them at such a young age. 
But the people who don't feel uncomfortable during those scenes are exactly the problem haha. 

I hate reacting to something I haven't personally seen, which is why I put so many qualifying statements in my post, but I just...I have absolutely no desire to watch 11 year olds twerking, even if it is portrayed as a bad thing in the movie.

I must officially be old now, projecting concern over something I haven't seen XD.

I don't think the film showed a lot of pressure to be sexy.  Ready access of pornography to children (mostly via cell phones) at the moment they reach puberty and are beginning to identify with their gender and work through identity issues was definitely a "cause", along with the numbness of most adults to that pornography and who is watching it.

Ironically, the girls don't want to be seen as "sluts" and "hos"--they have internalized much shame and censure already--and don't really understand much about sex and consequences. 

To my horror, I once saw a youtube video of 6-graders twerking. Tall heavy girls and short boys. That scared the bejeezus out of me as I tried to imagine how the country got this way and the decisions these kids would make as young adults. The horse is out of the barn. Should we close the door or look for the horse?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-17-2020, 09:01 PM)Dill Wrote: I don't think the film showed a lot of pressure to be sexy.  Ready access of pornography to children (mostly via cell phones) at the moment they reach puberty and are beginning to identify with their gender and work through identity issues was definitely a "cause", along with the numbness of most adults to that pornography and who is watching it.

Ironically, the girls don't want to be seen as "sluts" and "hos"--they have internalized much shame and censure already--and don't really understand much about sex and consequences. 

To my horror, I once saw a youtube video of 6-graders twerking. Tall heavy girls and short boys. That scared the bejeezus out of me as I tried to imagine how the country got this way and the decisions these kids would make as young adults. The horse is out of the barn. Should we close the door or look for the horse?

Alternatively we could make all women wear burkas and beat them when they don't follow the orders of their male relatives or husbands.  I wonder why we haven't seen that movie?  Maybe part of the problem is that only one culture's flaws or issues is subject to close scrutiny whereas criticism of others is completely haram?

But what do I know?

[Dill]

(09-17-2020, 11:32 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Alternatively we could make all women wear burkas and beat them when they don't follow the orders of their male relatives or husbands.  I wonder why we haven't seen that movie?  Maybe part of the problem is that only one culture's flaws or issues is subject to close scrutiny whereas criticism of others is completely haram?

But what do I know?

????? 

We've been talking about the sexualization of young actresses in a French film.

You've got your scapegoat, but do you have the right problem?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(09-18-2020, 12:45 AM)Dill Wrote: ????? 

We've been talking about the sexualization of young actresses in a French film.

You've got your scapegoat, but do you have the right problem?

I know this issue is very sensitive for you, but the comparison shouldn't be that confusing.  You've been defending this film as a commentary on western values.  While I conceded the film's point in my very first post I also stated it was executed and marketed in an exceedingly poor fashion and the film's critics have a legitimate point.  Where does islam come in, quite simply the contrast between islam and the west is at the crux of this film, which I would think you would know having claimed to watch it.  So my point is to contrast the wildly different reaction to a film critique of western culture that traffics in (borderline?) pedophilia to a film that made similar criticisms of islamic culture.

I guess it's easy to be "stunning and brave" in a culture that actually practices tolerance, despite the never ending barrage of criticism it gets from everyone else.