DACA to end

[Belsnickel]

(08-31-2017, 04:13 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Zuckerberg isnt running some conservative outfit. They tried to make it seem like we needed DACA but it backfired.

I know this. What I'm saying is that they brought up some valid thoughts, but they didn't follow through on the research. Some of those thoughts were ignored by Breitbart because they only wanted to twist the report to their narrative, which is fine, partisans versus partisans can do whatever, but there are some questions that need to be fleshed out and answered before there is cheering or jeering at the end of DACA.

[SunsetBengal]

(08-31-2017, 04:12 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I most certainly would see those jobs filled here.   Lawn services here are manned by illegals it pushes out actual Americans.    The night cleaning g companies would benefit as well.   I used to own a night cleaning service and we had to compete against the illegals and it was tough when we're being outbid by people who had cheap labor.  

Those are just two quick examples of how it would impact me here locally.  

They are good people but they need to come here and follow the laws.

While it is easy to cherry pick a few examples, by and large those jobs have been lost to immigrants because they bust their asses, and do a better job.  I used to make the same complaints as you, when I was a contractor in the skilled trades.

[*PhilHos*]

(08-31-2017, 03:39 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I always find it interesting when you read a report/study and look at the different takes on it. Honestly, I'd like to see a more in depth analysis of the financial burden to the businesses losing the DACA employees, more discussion of the types of jobs, in what geographic areas, and in what industries, as well as a forecasting of jobs that will stay in the US.

Before anyone cheers the unemployed masses increasing in such a way, there are a lot of other factors in the details that aren't being taken into account by either Breitbart or Zuckerburg/CAP. This is definitely a heavily biased/partisan media take on a heavily biased/partisan interest group report. We need a good think tank to take a look at this.

Let's not forget, when talking about the economics of illegal immigration, that while there may be a negative effect on businesses if removing illegals, there will most likely be a positive effect on the economy as well.

I read an article about a half a year ago that showed that illegals have both a positive and negative impact on the economy in America, but the net result is ultimately a negative.

[Belsnickel]

(08-31-2017, 04:26 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Let's not forget, when talking about the economics of illegal immigration, that while there may be a negative effect on businesses if removing illegals, there will most likely be a positive effect on the economy as well.

I read an article about a half a year ago that showed that illegals have both a positive and negative impact on the economy in America, but the net result is ultimately a negative.

I've seen studies done showing both. The issue is that when you look at these things, there are often a lot of assumptions made. What assumptions are made depends on who does the study. Heritage and CATO will make different assumptions than, say Century or PPI. Then you have different assumptions from RAND, Brookings, or Urban and it just all gets muddy.

All of these are valid think tanks for good analyses and information, and they do extremely well getting at the issues, but they will still approach things differently and so come up with different answers. All of which will be better than the shit show that the Zuckerburg Group put out.

[*PhilHos*]

(08-31-2017, 04:36 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I've seen studies done showing both. The issue is that when you look at these things, there are often a lot of assumptions made. What assumptions are made depends on who does the study. Heritage and CATO will make different assumptions than, say Century or PPI. Then you have different assumptions from RAND, Brookings, or Urban and it just all gets muddy.

All of these are valid think tanks for good analyses and information, and they do extremely well getting at the issues, but they will still approach things differently and so come up with different answers. All of which will be better than the shit show that the Zuckerburg Group put out.

All true. With that said, I'm still in favor of doing everything to curb illegal immigration with the exception of no amnesty.

[Belsnickel]

(08-31-2017, 04:38 PM)PhilHos Wrote: All true. With that said, I'm still in favor of doing everything to curb illegal immigration with the exception of no amnesty.

I don't disagree. I think if no one that came into the US after 2012 would be eligible for DACA, I think that would have been preferred for me. I think DACA is actually a decent program, and would argue that even when faced with studies showing how illegal immigration hurts us, the DACA recipients are a different situation entirely.

I really want to find some studies on all of this now, but I have actual work to do.

[SunsetBengal]

(08-31-2017, 04:08 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: I agree.   I would happily punish businesses who hire illegals.   You either follow the laws or get in trouble.

I don't know how it is in Florida, but in NC they audit employers and check the info on employees.  I have a friend, who is the Manager of a Golf Course, we had a conversation back in around 2012.  At that time he said that he was dreading going to work the next day.  I asked him why, he responded it was about to be audit time.  I got curious and inquired about what sort of audit.  He went on to explain that it was an employment eligibility audit that happened 3 to 4 times per year.  Government officials come in and run the SS numbers of all of their employees, and he only has short notice of these audits.  He told me that he posts a notice that any employee with a non-valid SS number has to go, the following Monday he usually has about 3 or 4 of a staff of around 30 that show up for work.  He said they get serious fines for every individual not in compliance.  He also said that he would gladly hire more White, Black, Asian, etc.  but they just don't apply much.  When they do, they complain about the heat, work slower, etc.  He said that he would have to maintain a staff of 50 to do the same work as he gets done with 30.  

He went on to explain that the same faces usually show back up in a few weeks, with new names and numbers.  The fake document industry is real.  In order to stop this, the Federal Government needs to retire SS numbers of dead people, and keep an active, up to date data base for employers to verify when interviewing applicants.

[StLucieBengal]

(08-31-2017, 04:17 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: While it is easy to cherry pick a few examples, by and large those jobs have been lost to immigrants because they bust their asses, and do a better job.  I used to make the same complaints as you, when I was a contractor in the skilled trades.

I just tossed those out for quick examples. I realize they work hard but that doesn't excuse them from following the laws.

There is a standard set by law and they haven't met that standard yet to continues to be here.

[StLucieBengal]

(08-31-2017, 04:54 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I don't disagree. I think if no one that came into the US after 2012 would be eligible for DACA, I think that would have been preferred for me. I think DACA is actually a decent program, and would argue that even when faced with studies showing how illegal immigration hurts us, the DACA recipients are a different situation entirely.

I really want to find some studies on all of this now, but I have actual work to do.

I actually would have been in favor of keeping DACA had they just moved the immigration policy to be far more restrictive.

[StLucieBengal]

(08-31-2017, 04:57 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I don't know how it is in Florida, but in NC they audit employers and check the info on employees.  I have a friend, who is the Manager of a Golf Course, we had a conversation back in around 2012.  At that time he said that he was dreading going to work the next day.  I asked him why, he responded it was about to be audit time.  I got curious and inquired about what sort of audit.  He went on to explain that it was an employment eligibility audit that happened 3 to 4 times per year.  Government officials come in and run the SS numbers of all of their employees, and he only has short notice of these audits.  He told me that he posts a notice that any employee with a non-valid SS number has to go, the following Monday he usually has about 3 or 4 of a staff of around 30 that show up for work.  He said they get serious fines for every individual not in compliance.  He also said that he would gladly hire more White, Black, Asian, etc.  but they just don't apply much.  When they do, they complain about the heat, work slower, etc.  He said that he would have to maintain a staff of 50 to do the same work as he gets done with 30.  

He went on to explain that the same faces usually show back up in a few weeks, with new names and numbers.  The fake document industry is real.  In order to stop this, the Federal Government needs to retire SS numbers of dead people, and keep an active, up to date data base for employers to verify when interviewing applicants.

Yeah they do that here as well. The work around is just doing jobs like lawn service, cleaning, etc. they run a lot of rag tag "businesses" mostly unofficial stuff.

[BmorePat87]

(08-31-2017, 04:57 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: He went on to explain that the same faces usually show back up in a few weeks, with new names and numbers.  The fake document industry is real.  In order to stop this, the Federal Government needs to retire SS numbers of dead people, and keep an active, up to date data base for employers to verify when interviewing applicants.

At the same time, they are supporting a struggling social security system without ever having hope of receiving back from it. 

[SunsetBengal]

(09-01-2017, 08:01 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: At the same time, they are supporting a struggling social security system without ever having hope of receiving back from it. 

Yes, I suppose you make a point.  Kind of like asserting that drug dealers help build the economy by purchasing gaudy jewelry and fancy rims for their cars..  

[BmorePat87]

(09-01-2017, 09:07 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Yes, I suppose you make a point.  Kind of like asserting that drug dealers help build the economy by purchasing gaudy jewelry and fancy rims for their cars..  

No, I wouldn't compare it to that. They're making an effort to pay their taxes knowing they miss out on a number of benefits, helping our system remain viable instead of trying to work under the table. The solution is finding a pathway to citizenship, not promoting working under the table and not paying taxes.

[SunsetBengal]

(09-01-2017, 09:21 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: No, I wouldn't compare it to that. They're making an effort to pay their taxes knowing they miss out on a number of benefits, helping our system remain viable instead of trying to work under the table. The solution is finding a pathway to citizenship, not promoting working under the table and not paying taxes.

Hmm, I'm not so sure about that.  I have another friend, who works in HR.  He says that most of his Latino men readily trade family insurance benefit, for an extra couple dollars on the hour.  He said that most of them aren't legally married to their "wives", so that they can put her and the kids on Medicare.  (that may not still be the truth, today.  This was a convo from years back)  Immigrant people aren't stupid, they play the system to their maximum benefit.

So, your assertion that they are contributing to a system that they receive no benefit from, is at best a push.

[BmorePat87]

(09-01-2017, 09:37 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Hmm, I'm not so sure about that.  I have another friend, who works in HR.  He says that most of his Latino men readily trade family insurance benefit, for an extra couple dollars on the hour.  He said that most of them aren't legally married to their "wives", so that they can put her and the kids on Medicare.  (that may not still be the truth, today.  This was a convo from years back)  Immigrant people aren't stupid, they play the system to their maximum benefit.

So, your assertion that they are contributing to a system that they receive no benefit from, is at best a push.

What exactly is different from an unmarried man not having family health insurance but paying taxes when they're here legally versus not legally, and why exactly do we not want to make them citizens when they're doing jobs that, according to your anecdote, everyone else won't?

[GMDino]

(09-01-2017, 09:37 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Hmm, I'm not so sure about that.  I have another friend, who works in HR.  He says that most of his Latino men readily trade family insurance benefit, for an extra couple dollars on the hour.  He said that most of them aren't legally married to their "wives", so that they can put her and the kids on Medicare.  (that may not still be the truth, today.  This was a convo from years back)  Immigrant people aren't stupid, they play the system to their maximum benefit.

So, your assertion that they are contributing to a system that they receive no benefit from, is at best a push.

I know plenty of american citizens who do the same sadly.  

In many of those cases they are good people, but it's the only way to afford health care for their children and a place to live.

[Belsnickel]

(09-01-2017, 09:37 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Hmm, I'm not so sure about that.  I have another friend, who works in HR.  He says that most of his Latino men readily trade family insurance benefit, for an extra couple dollars on the hour.  He said that most of them aren't legally married to their "wives", so that they can put her and the kids on Medicare.  (that may not still be the truth, today.  This was a convo from years back)  Immigrant people aren't stupid, they play the system to their maximum benefit.

So, your assertion that they are contributing to a system that they receive no benefit from, is at best a push.

I have a cousin that does this. Pisses me off to no end. He makes damn good money for SW PA, but they have never been married so that she can sit around on her ass and they get government help for their one kid. Meanwhile, I have another cousin that works his ass off for a pittance, his wife is physically incapable of most jobs but she does grant writing for a PSU satellite campus and they refuse any government help out of pride. They and their two kids still at home (which the one just graduated high school and is working now, but because of his bout with cancer it's hard to say how well that will work out in the long run) are dirt ***** poor and get ignored by all of their close family that could help.

Sorry, tangential rant is tangential.

[BmorePat87]

(09-01-2017, 09:45 AM)GMDino Wrote: I know plenty of american citizens who do the same sadly.  

In many of those cases they are good people, but it's the only way to afford health care for their children and a place to live.

My mom didn't marry my step dad until we graduated high school because she would lose benefits and couldn't afford to raise us without them. I didn't put my dad down on any of my student aid forms because he wasn't around anyways. 

[SunsetBengal]

Here's an interesting follow up.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/white-house/article170547392.html

Quote:WASHINGTON
Conservative lawmakers led by Thom Tillis are crafting a bill they call the conservative Dream Act that would provide a path to permanent residency to people brought here illegally as children, offering President Donald Trump an escape hatch on one of his most vexing immigration challenges.
The legislation creates an avenue for Trump to both fulfill a campaign promise to end an Obama-era program known as DACA while yielding to what appears to be his personal desire to let these immigrants remain in the country.
“Who cares about DACA if there's a Dream Act,” said a Republican involved with the policy negotiations and aware of Tillis’ plan.

Read more here: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/white-house/article170547392.html#storylink=cpy

Quote:Trump is expected to end DACA as soon as Friday, but allow those who have received work permits to keep them until they expire, according to multiple people familiar with the policy negotiations.
The Tillis plan makes killing the deferred action program much more politically palatable. Republicans involved in the policy negotiations said Trump can claim a win with both his base for ending the program and the young people, for whom he promised to try to “work something out.”
Details are still being worked out, but the Tillis plan would be a companion proposal to a House bill introduced by Miami Republican Carlos Curbelo.
Like Curbelo’s bill, the Tillis plan would offer an eventual path to U.S. citizenship for immigrants who entered illegally before Jan. 1, 2012, and were 16 years old or younger.
The proposal would grant high school graduates without a serious criminal record conditional immigration status for a five-year period. During that time, if they earn a higher-education degree, serve in the military or stay employed, they could apply for permanent residency and, eventually, citizenship.
About 2.5 million Dreamers would be eligible.

Read more here: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/white-house/article170547392.html#storylink=cpy

[Belsnickel]

(09-01-2017, 10:32 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Here's an interesting follow up.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/white-house/article170547392.html

I am interested to see what the final legislation would look like. My biggest hang-ups about DACA are that is was an EO, and that it didn't act as just a grandfathering clause. I think our entire set of immigration policies needs to be looked at and potentially reformed, but we need to figure out what to do for/with those already here and tighten up the borders, first.