Decency, Trump and Obama.

[hollodero]

Really don't want to open 10.000 threads, but I need to know. The US is patient zero now, as to how the alt-right plans to conduct their agenda, and Europe needs to study and prepare. It's coming if Trump doesn't implode soon. And he won't in that climate.

So now a new high, or low, is reached yet again, when Trump blamed Obama for wiretapping him and called him a "sick guy". Please share your thoughts on that one. Especially - what should be the consequence if these accusations are indeed baseless and Obama did not order such a thing.

I give mine and then I shut up again. First, even if Trump was surveilled, that doesn't mean in any way that his claims were right, or correct, or however this is turned. He blamed Obama directly. If Obama wasn't directly involved, Trump lied. No nuance to defend his tweets there. Either Obama illegally ordered a wire tap, or Trump is an arsonist that has no intention of uniting the country.

Second, and this is a very personal stance, it is a bit heartbreaking. It's totally fine with me to be opposed to Obama or his policies, to vigorously dispute the merits of his doing and all that. But just compare what he tweeted and what Trump tweets. Obamas words have been nothing but noble, uplifting and spirited. He believed in the country and the people and in the greatness of America (or at least pretends). He deserves better than this character assassination that takes place here. But I get why the opposition can't see it that way, so I drop that. Just wanted to say it once.

And overall:
Is decency no longer what people want?
I spent half an hour on the FOX comment section now and lost some faith in humankind. The "left" is the enemy, Hillary should be hanged, Obama should be in prison, Michelle is a ***** and whatnot. These are not singulary instances, it's a common tone. And yeah, say all you want about that's just how people behave. It's also what Trump (and Breitbart and some other minds behind all that) ignites. General tone, the alt-right wants to bring out the worst in people (it's the same pattern here). And it works, in the end probably on both sides. (Because yeah I know, Trump wants to whatever his daughter isn't noble, too.)

Discuss (if you please), I only want to listen.

[NATI BENGALS]

Most people want decency. That is why the majority voted against Trump.

It sucks we have a professional conman who fooled a whole lot of people. And in order to save face the ones he fooled will back up their man even if it isn't what's best for the country.

Funny thing is the right is supposed to be the morally superior religious folks.

[Dill]

(03-05-2017, 06:01 PM)hollodero Wrote: So now a new high, or low, is reached yet again, when Trump blamed Obama for wiretapping him and called him a "sick guy". Please share your thoughts on that one. Especially - what should be the consequence if these accusations are indeed baseless and Obama did not order such a thing.

I give mine and then I shut up again. First, even if Trump was surveilled, that doesn't mean in any way that his claims were right, or correct, or however this is turned. He blamed Obama directly. If Obama wasn't directly involved, Trump lied. No nuance to defend his tweets there. Either Obama illegally ordered a wire tap, or Trump is an arsonist that has no intention of uniting the country.
takes place here. But I get why the opposition can't see it that way, so I drop that. Just wanted to say it once.

Excellent questions all. I will make a brief comment regarding the alleged wire-tapping.

A US president cannot legally or illegally "order" a wire tap on a US citizen. Only the FBI and NSA can do that. and They have to go through a judge first--present evidence, probable cause, etc. to get a warrant.  This is one of the Post-Nixon checks on presidential power.

The president can, through his Attorney General, order a warrantless wire tap on a foreign national, provided it captures no content from a US citizen or "minimized" content. But even that has to be ok'd by the AG and a FISA* court.

I would not assume that Trump "lied."  You may overestimate his knowledge of how government works. Trump is an avid follower of Brietbart and Infowars. He may have read  that someone--perhaps a foreign national--in one of his hotels was surveilled, believed that, and ASSUMED Obama ordered it.   It is entirely possible that he then tweeted out an accusation before a knowledgeable, responsible adult could get him under control. 

This, of course, is alarmingly bad judgment, there for all to see, including foreign powers. FBI director Comey says the allegation is completely false. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/05/us/politics/trump-seeks-inquiry-into-allegations-that-obama-tapped-his-phones.html?_r=0

If you don't believe Comey and the LYING NEW YORK TIMES, there is still another possibility, what I would call the Breitbart/Fox Scenario. Obama could have suggested through some very trusted National Security personnel that he would like to see Trump surveilled. And so some of his "deep state" operatives in the FBI engineered the surveillance at arms length from the president himself. Perhaps even unknown to Comey, or with his collusion. This would be the Watergate-level scandal Fox viewers have sought for years. Millions of Fox viewers are now out there waiting to see if government and mainstream media will hide the truth as they always did for the Clintons.


*Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978--a legacy of Nixon's presidential overreach.

[Dill]

(03-05-2017, 07:50 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Most people want decency. That is why the majority voted against Trump.

It sucks we have a professional conman who fooled a whole lot of people. And in order to save face the ones he fooled will back up their man even if it isn't what's best for the country.

Funny thing is the right is supposed to be the morally superior religious folks.

Nailed it there. Though regarding his "establishment" support, I do not think they were conned. But once Trump had duped his way into power, they weren't going to throw away the opportunity of controlling the presidency and both houses of congress. That is why they ignore or minimize the incompetence--and the danger to national security.  They want to get as much of their agenda fixed (ACA repeal, EPA slashed, SCOTUS appointments, etc.) before he flames out.

[hollodero]

Just quickly, I did read up about that FISA court and how an US citizen has to be considered a possible spy (or a colluder with a foreign power or something of that sort) to be considered a target for wiretapping. If this was the way it went down, then Trump has a real problem at his hands, for these things don't get approved lightly. This is the legal way. So the suggestion would be more that it was done the illegal way - that Obama asked someone to go around the law and illegally tap him. That's the core of the accusation. The watergate thing.

Whatever. I do not share your belief that it was unintentionally stupid any longer. I still believe Trump is just that, sure. But this might also be another deliberate attempt to stir up the pot, to agitate the masses - and it worked. Again.
Bannon was with him that weekend, from what I've learned. Sure, that's a bit conspiracy talk, but I feel there are elements in Trump's surrounding that want just that, an agitation, deepened trenches, that the worst in people comes out in a fact-free environment as I said. And I call these elements Bannon (others call it Russia, but I am more of a Bannon guy there). Darkness is good, he said. If there was a master plan to set up the country for chaos and deconstruction, it would look a lot like what we see. Just throw dirt, destroy all legacies, who cares, many are willing to believe just anything despicably bad about the enemy (which is the left, and for the left it becomes the right), way too many. Facts are skewed, logic is distorted, and people go along with it as long as the target fits.

And the conservatives are stooges to that, somehow all my posts end up in that insight... I don't know if I translate this word harshly enough... but OK.

[JustWinBaby]

Fox has to love this - the Christmas of a millenia!
- If false, Trump gets impeached and then Mike Pence, a true conservative, is POTUS.
- If true, Obama would be executed for treason.

And now it seems the WH has decided "not to comment" until a Congressional investigation is completed. Well, they can probably drag that out for 4 years. But this has only been 5 weeks - how is Trump going to go 4 years without tweeting something even dumber?

[hollodero]

(03-05-2017, 10:56 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote:  
 - If false, Trump gets impeached and then Mike Pence, a true conservative, is POTUS.  

Sure a bitter pill to swallow for many, but that probably should be the overall national consensus at this point.
Won't happen, though, it would alter the narrative and hurt the GOP. Trump supporters would hate them, and moderate conservatives would see it as an admission of failure. Nothing to gain. And that these guys care for the country more than their party and their careers, I stopped believing.

(03-05-2017, 10:56 PM)JustWinBaby Wrote:  
 - If true, Obama would be executed for treason.

Whoa!
But OK... talk about agitation. People seriously debating the idea of executing the former president. Isn't that scary?

[CageTheBengal]

I don't know what to say really. People say they want decency most people would agree with that but then will brush it under the rug whenever Trump shows his inner barbarian or will try to point at something the left did to justify it. There is always a back door.

All I can say is we have an unstable man child for president who is held to different standards compared to the rest of the country to a portion of the public. You are supposed to know what's "in his heart" and have a total disregard for anything that has any real substance like his words, actions, business ties and facts. I live in the heart of Trump land in a section of rural Ohio and I don't understand this anymore then the next person who doesn't support Trump.

What I can't wrap my mind around is how a spoiled Manhattan punk like Trump who was born with a silver spoon in his mouth is the chosen one for rural Americans who work hard and weren't given anything. Most of these people probably haven't left rural America (at least the ones I know.) and resent "city folk". It's irony at it's best and they got played..

[JustWinBaby]

(03-05-2017, 11:16 PM)hollodero Wrote: Whoa!
But OK... talk about agitation. People seriously debating the idea of executing the former president. Isn't that scary?

That was a bit of hyperbole.  Not sure this would actually be treason.  But to understand the seriousness of the charge (which is why, if false, Trump should be impeached) take whatever you believed Russia did and tried to do and multiply that by about 100.

Think about how serious this accusation is:  The current administration, using the vast resources and power of the federal intelligence services to spy on a Presidential candidate / President elect....presumably with the intention to influence or alter the election, or to invalidate the result. 

Illegal use of the powers of the federal govt to attack a political opponent.  Really think about the implications of that, and then tell me what would be an appropriate punishment (which at this point is purely hypothetical).

[JustWinBaby]

(03-05-2017, 11:28 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: I don't know what to say really. People say they want decency most people would agree with that but then will brush it under the rug whenever Trump shows his inner barbarian or will try to point at something the left did to justify it. There is always a back door.

Well it definitely goes both ways.  The left is saying, "well, if there was a FISA warrant that's not good for Trump because it points to evidence of a connection with Russia".  Well, not really, considering only 0.05% of FISA applications get rejected and they apparently got rejected twice (until maybe a third time when they found a sympathetic judge).

Does the FISA warrant actually exist, and then we'd need a public review of the actual merit of the request before we make any judgements.

The truth will probably end-up somewhere in between.  Maybe the warrant WAS granted on the basis of bad intel (hell, even potentially manufactured by the Russians).  Maybe they had reason to believe Russia was attempting to communicate with the Trump campaign, and solicited or not they are actually surveiling Russia and not the Trump group. Or maybe there's nothing there at all.

And obviously they stopped short of manufacturing evidence to take Trump down (if they did anything malicious, at all).  But then there's that curious EO in the final days that allowed for broad sharing across agencies.  My understanding is any info inadvertently collected on private citizens is to be completely scrubbed, so I'm not sure how the Michael Flynn thing got out (but that's another topic) or some of these other things.

This is a very dangerous and damaging claim to be making.  It needs to be investigated and someone needs to be held accountable.

[NATI BENGALS]

(03-06-2017, 12:25 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: That was a bit of hyperbole.  Not sure this would actually be treason.  But to understand the seriousness of the charge (which is why, if false, Trump should be impeached) take whatever you believed Russia did and tried to do and multiply that by about 100.

Think about how serious this accusation is:  The current administration, using the vast resources and power of the federal intelligence services to spy on a Presidential candidate / President elect....presumably with the intention to influence or alter the election, or to invalidate the result. 

Illegal use of the powers of the federal govt to attack a political opponent.  Really think about the implications of that, and then tell me what would be an appropriate punishment (which at this point is purely hypothetical).

What if it is true and the surveillance was approved because of repeated campaign contact with a country actively involved in tampering with our election?

Which to me seems like a very possible outcome.

[*bfine32*]

He sure is different

[NATI BENGALS]

(03-06-2017, 12:46 AM)bfine32 Wrote: He sure is different

^ one of the people he was talking about when he said he could shoot someone in the middle of the street and not lose support.

[Rotobeast]

I wonder if this plan was set into motion on a tarmac, somewhere ?


Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

[JustWinBaby]

(03-06-2017, 12:45 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: What if it is true and the surveillance was approved because of repeated campaign contact with a country actively involved in tampering with our election?

Which to me seems like a very possible outcome.

That's why we'd need to see the evidence presented to justify the FISA warrant.

I'm not sure how "possible" that outcome is because I've not seen any real evidence of a connection, beyond Flynn starting the job too soon and undermining the duly elected and still sitting administration (and, really, I'm of the opinion that any sanctions should have been coordinated with the incoming administration).  But that's post-election.

I'm hardly an expert on FISA, other than having the opinion that it gives wide latitude and power to gather intel on foreign agents.  But I think when talking about a Presidential Candidate, to demonstrate that he was acting as an agent of a foreign power would require very substantial evidence with a high degree of certainty.  Otherwise there is unacceptably massive potential for abuse for purposes of targeting political opponents.

My feeling is the investigation into the banking transactions, which was apparently justified and mostly innocuous, was the basis for building a conspiracy theory that ensnared the easily trolled Trump.

[*bfine32*]

(03-06-2017, 12:53 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: ^ one of the people he was talking about when he said he could shoot someone in the middle of the street and not lose support.

Not really. I just don't let them define my life, plus I like to see folk's heads explode.

[NATI BENGALS]

(03-06-2017, 01:35 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Not really. I just don't let them define my life, plus I like to see folk's heads explode.

That is a disturbingly common trend i have noticed in republicans. 


Instead of wanting competent leadership they would rather watch a libtard squirm. I must have missed that day of Patriot class.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

I guess Trump got another call from his reliable source who told him Obama's birth certificate was fake.

[*bfine32*]

(03-06-2017, 01:56 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: That is a disturbingly common trend i have noticed in republicans. 


Instead of wanting competent leadership they would rather watch a libtard squirm. I must have missed that day of Patriot class.

You also must have missed the day at Patriot Class that explained how our officials are elected. 

A request of everybody in this forum:

Name one tangible thing that Trump's election done to truly hurt you? 

[NATI BENGALS]

(03-06-2017, 01:05 AM)Rotobeast Wrote: I wonder if this plan was set into motion on a tarmac, somewhere ?


Sent from my SM-S820L using Tapatalk

Maybe. Possibly one of the meetings with Dmitry Rybolovlev as the Russian billionaire had his private jet oddly in the same place as the Trump campaign on more than one occassion. The same guy who paid Trump more than twice what he bought a moldy mansion for.

The same guy who worked at the bank of cypress which is the same place our new commerce secretary worked when he happened to appoint the guy who was fired from Deutsche Bank for helping some russians launder money.

Its all good though. Even though the Dmitry paid Trump 95 million dollars for a mansion he would bulldoze and their jets happened to be in the same place at the same time more than once , Trump assures us he never met him.