Defensive scheme to blame for lack of pass rushing?

[J24]

(11-20-2020, 02:45 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Maybe we have different views of what falls under scheme, but putting a 4-3 DE into coverage falls under scheme to me.

Dunlap dropped into coverage last night and played standing up. The scheme the Seahawks and Bengals run is the same exact scheme.

[Gdale_Bengal]

He didn’t want to be here and played like garbage so he could be traded.

His play here still makes me not miss him. I don’t give a damn that he’s doing well or worse. To me he is garbage. Bye Dunlop

[JSR18]

I don't know if Zac has to go. I'm on the fence about it.

What I think needs to happen is Zac needs to give up play calling so his attention is not divided on Sunday/game days.
He has a coordinator--let him coordinate.

As far as the Defense goes--BIG changes are needed. I agree with the defense needs an attitude.
One that radiates from the DC through the position coaches to each an every player that sees the field on game days.

That being said, Zac, Tobin, Katie and Mr. Imarriedintothis need to start scouring the league and NCAA NOW for Sweet Lou's replacement.
Somebody who has DC experience and ability to force his will onto coaches and athletes.
Fire entire Defensive staff the day after the season.
Name new DC within a week after season's end.
Allow new DC to bring in his own position coaches.

Sit back and watch how good the defense becomes...

[Tony]

Boy, the more you look into it, the more it seems Lou really is a huge liability. It's obvious now... He should have been fired right after the 2 time Baker Mayfield totally trashed his defense. I mean Baker doesn't do that to anyone else! His 3 best games are against the Bengals. Maybe 4 IDC to look right now... SAD..

[Tony]

(11-20-2020, 03:24 PM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: He didn’t want to be here and played like garbage so he could be traded.

His play here still makes me not miss him. I don’t give a damn that he’s doing well or worse. To me he is garbage. Bye Dunlop

That's the biggest problem here. Does anyone really buy into being a Bengal? I mean look at the history. You can't really blame them if they don't.  I believe this has been the biggest problem here since the son of Paul took the helm.. 

[*ochocincos*]

(11-20-2020, 03:16 PM)J24 Wrote: Dunlap dropped into coverage last night and played standing up. The scheme the Seahawks and Bengals run is the same exact scheme.

Fair, but SEA has used Dunlap as a pass rusher on a higher percentage of snaps compared to what Cincinnati did.

[Bengalstripes9]

I maintain that if they knew they were switching schemes this year and that Dunlap wouldn't be as useful, why not trade him last year?
Teams were interested last year at the deadline, but we hung on to him.

Don't get me wrong, I agreed with hanging on to him at the time, because he was our best pass rusher. However, if I knew what the coaches knew, I would have tried to get something for him last year.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-20-2020, 03:37 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: I maintain that if they knew they were switching schemes this year and that Dunlap wouldn't be as useful, why not trade him last year?
Teams were interested last year at the deadline, but we hung on to him.

Don't get me wrong, I agreed with hanging on to him at the time, because he was our best pass rusher. However, if I knew what the coaches knew, I would have tried to get something for him last year.

I think you're assuming that this shift was planned that long ahead of time. They also may have assumed that Dunlap would have been able to (and wanted to) adapt.

I just know that from what I've seen with this defense this season, it's going to be hard to get at the QB even if they add another pass rusher or two. They have to be more aggressive with their playcalling.

[J24]

(11-20-2020, 03:36 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Fair, but SEA has used Dunlap as a pass rusher on a higher percentage of snaps compared to what Cincinnati did.

The Bengals were not using him at all that was the problem. In his last game here he played only 12 snaps.

[Bengalstripes9]

A simplified scheme would help this defense tremendously. All the best defenses seem to run a more simplified scheme. Burrow said the Steelers do a few things and do them really well. Zimmer's scheme was quite simple. Press man coverage with various stunts and blitzes up front. A simple scheme but it was hard to tell what stunt or blitz you were going to get as an offensive line. Every play set up looking the same from the snap, which disguised what we were doing defensively.

For how complicated of a system Lou runs, the offensive line knows whats coming every play. It seems like Lou is stressing gap responsibility and stopping the run over using stunts and different things to get to the QB. The offensive line picks up our blitzes no problem because they always attack the same places. Extremely vanilla. But they don't want to get beat by the run I guess.

We basically need a ton of talent to make it work. We need a legit pass rusher and shutdown corners. But we will confuse those corners by making their job harder than it should be.

I'm sure we will look like world beaters against Washington's offense this week, but we've got a long ways to go defensively.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-20-2020, 03:44 PM)J24 Wrote: The Bengals were not using him at all that was the problem. In his last game here he played only 12 snaps.

I know. But even when you look at the number of pass rush snaps divided by number of total snaps, it's a lower percentage compared to that of Seattle.

Regardless, he's gone and the pass rush is still abysmal, and he's doing better in his new environment. So it seems the problem is more with how the Bengals use their pass rushers vs Dunlap declining.

[fredtoast]

Having a DE drop into coverage is no more crazy than blitzing a CB.

Both moves can be very effective if used properly.  Dick LeBeau is considered a defensive genius for dropping D-linemen in coverage in his famous "zone blitz" scheme.  And the Ravens got about 5 sacks from DBs against us this year.

[Yogo]

(11-20-2020, 03:16 PM)J24 Wrote: Dunlap dropped into coverage last night and played standing up. The scheme the Seahawks and Bengals run is the same exact scheme.

Actually, the previous Bengals defensive scheme is close to the Seahawks defensive schemes (even with their more zone coverage).  The current Bengals scheme is very different than what it was 1.5 years ago.

[J24]

(11-20-2020, 05:01 PM)Yogo Wrote: Actually, the previous Bengals defensive scheme is close to the Seahawks defensive schemes (even with their more zone coverage).  The current Bengals scheme is very different than what it was 1.5 years ago.

I would say lous scheme is very similar to Seattle scheme. Both teams are single High safety teams, both like to press their CBs, and both run an under scheme. Seahawks calls there's a 4-3 vs the Bengals call it a 3-4. Also the majority of the time both teams are in Nickle so the base doesn't matter as much as it did in previous decades.

The biggest difference is the Seahawks value speed in the middle of the field. Bobby Wagner and KJ Wright have been the most athletic pair of LBers in the nfl for the past decade. The Bengals on the other hand still play Bynes 60% of the time.

[bengals67]

(11-20-2020, 02:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I think the biggest proof that scheme makes a difference with pass rush is the way the Bengals have struggled in pass protection.  It seems to me that the Bengal O-linemen have more problems picking up stunts and blitzes than just being physically beaten one-on-one.  Lots of sacks given up just because the o-linemen don't properly pick up a twist or a loop from D-linemen.  And most of Baltimore's sacks came from DBs.  They certainly were not just running over our O-linemen.

Another important issue is the ability to disguise the blitz so that the offense does not see it coming.  That is an important skill for a DC.

One- I asked this question in another thread- is coaching the problem with our ass rush- so I am grateful to the OP.

Second- re your point Fred, is it easier to confuse the offense on what is coming from a 3-4 system than a 4-3.

Year after year, with a few exceptions, Pittsburgh and Baltimore have great Ds operating from a 3-4. they always get more pressure on the QB than the Bengals could dream of.

Why wouldn't we try to copy what the Steelers and Raven do?

Seattle's defense is not great this year but something is wrong in our River city when Carlos goes there and gets 3.5 sacks in three games versus none with Bengals.

[Murdock2420]

(11-20-2020, 06:15 PM)bengals67 Wrote: One- I asked this question in another thread- is coaching the problem with our ass rush- so I am grateful to the OP.

Second- re your point Fred, is it easier to confuse the offense on what is coming from a 3-4 system than a 4-3.

Year after year, with a few exceptions, Pittsburgh and Baltimore have great Ds operating from a 3-4. they always get more pressure on the QB than the Bengals could dream of.

Why wouldn't we try to copy what the Steelers and Raven do?

Seattle's defense is not great this year but something is wrong in our River city when Carlos goes there and gets 3.5 sacks in three games versus none with Bengals.

This is half on the Bengals and half on Carlos.

I think he was being misused here or didn't fit the scheme they were trying for here but at the same time, you can see a huge difference in his effort there the games he has played versus the effort he had here. 

[*ochocincos*]

(11-20-2020, 03:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Having a DE drop into coverage is no more crazy than blitzing a CB.

Both moves can be very effective if used properly.  Dick LeBeau is considered a defensive genius for dropping D-linemen in coverage in his famous "zone blitz" scheme.  And the Ravens got about 5 sacks from DBs against us this year.

I didn't mean to imply a DE dropping into coverage is crazy, but moreso that at least with Dunlap, that's not his skillset and he has no interest in doing it.

[J24]

(11-20-2020, 06:32 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I didn't mean to imply a DE dropping into coverage is crazy, but moreso that at least with Dunlap, that's not his skillset and he has no interest in doing it.

He did it quite a bit under Zimmer and Gunther. 
I think it's dumb( to put Edge guys in coverage) and it never works out but then again know one is paying me to be a d coordinator.

[*ochocincos*]

(11-20-2020, 06:49 PM)J24 Wrote: He did it quite a bit under Zimmer and Gunther. 
I think it's dumb( to put Edge guys in coverage) and it never works out but then again know one is paying me to be a d coordinator.

He did? I don't remember him doing it very often. But that was quite a while ago, so maybe he did.
If he is used to it, I really wonder why he made a big deal earlier this year about being dropped into coverage (more).

[J24]

(11-20-2020, 07:23 PM)ochocincos Wrote: He did? I don't remember him doing it very often. But that was quite a while ago, so maybe he did.
If he is used to it, I really wonder why he made a big deal earlier this year about being dropped into coverage (more).

I remember two plays that come to mind one against the Bills in 2013 it was a zone blitz and we gave up a TD that game.
The one against the 49ers in 2015 it was a completion but Dunlap forced a fumble, recoverd it, and then returned it to the 10 yard line.