Democrat Convention Thread

[GMDino]

Fact check Day 3:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/07/28/fact-check-night-3-democratic-convention/87644542/

Quote:PHILADELPHIA — The president headlined the night’s speeches, and a few of his boasts of his record headline our fact-checking report:


• President Obama claimed that under his administration, “we finally began to wean ourselves off foreign oil,” but dependency on imported oil had begun to drop years before he took office.

• The president repeated a frequent boast that the U.S. “doubled our production of clean energy” during his tenure. Monthly renewable energy production has gone up 40%.

• Obama said deficits have “come down” under his administration. That’s true, but they are expected to rise again soon under his proposed budget.

• Vice presidential nominee Tim Kaine falsely referred to economist Mark Zandi as “John McCain’s chief economic adviser during the ’08 race,” in touting an estimate of job loss under Donald Trump’s proposals. In fact, Zandi is a Democrat.

• The Rev. Jesse Jackson wrongly said “we have not lost a single job, a single month” since Obama became president, and he was also off in saying the U.S. trades “more with Mexico than we do with China.”

• Former secretary of Defense Leon Panetta falsely claimed that Trump “says he gets his foreign policy experience from … running the Miss Universe pageant.” Trump didn’t say that was his foreign policy experience.

• Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid claimed that the GOP ticket wanted to “gamble” Social Security “in the stock market.” But Trump’s campaign has called for making no changes to Social Security.

• Kaine claimed that Trump said he “wants to abandon” our NATO allies. Trump has said that he doesn’t want the U.S. to leave NATO, but has suggested he would not automatically defend NATO allies that do not pay their share of defense costs.

[Millhouse]

(07-28-2016, 05:44 AM)BoomerFan Wrote: Obama's speech tonight was amazing. It really did stir something in me and made me think. The man is an amazing orator.

The convention is pulling in better ratings than the RNC. And I think this is probably a good sign for the Dems as well:

I think the most important goal that Obama wanted to do was to unify their party. And if that speech didnt do it, then I dont know what will. 

I will say this, if Hillary does win, I think last night's speeches from Biden, Bloomberg, and Obama may be looked at as the launching off point for the final 3 month leg of the campaign. Biden blasted Trump as clueless on the middle class, Bloomberg as an Independent reached to the moderate undecideds, but most importantly Obama unified the party for the sole purpose of defeating Trump.

[BURROWorBUST]

(07-28-2016, 05:11 AM)JustWinBaby Wrote: Ha!  Ross Perot took almost 20% of the popular vote in 1992 - his charts made people concerned about the deficit way back when the debt was - wait for it - 1/5th of what it is today.  The Libertarian party has been around for close to 40 years.  The Green party has been around about half that and almost no one has heard of them.

Voters still by and large complain terribly about Congress, yet continue to re-elect their own incumbents year after year.  Republicans are quite upset with their Reps and Senators, but instead went with Trump rather than [watch] replace their Congressperson.

I'll believe a "Revolution" when I see it.  Smart money is a return to the status quo by 2024.  Unless the wheels come off and we have another bad recession (which is entirely possible).

Because the thing is....most Americans just don't care about politics all that much.  Like 6M people watch cable news, and you're here posting in the politics section of a message board which makes you part of an even smaller segment.  I'd contend most people supporting Trump (or Hillary, for that matter) just jump on the bandwagon - probably why so many candidates are eliminated after just a few no-name primary states.

I gotcha. I was just curious to read everyone's thoughts here on what's going on in Philly. A sports board is a pretty interesting cross section of at least white males. Most folks seem to get it. Hillary is crooked. I'm no Trump supporter. 

As for the Revolution, I think things are different this time. I want to believe they are anyway. 

[Belsnickel]

(07-28-2016, 01:05 PM)Shady Wrote: I gotcha. I was just curious to read everyone's thoughts here on what's going on in Philly. A sports board is a pretty interesting cross section of at least white males. Most folks seem to get it. Hillary is crooked. I'm no Trump supporter. 

As for the Revolution, I think things are different this time. I want to believe they are anyway. 

Yeah, it's sad that every election cycle I become more and more cynical to the idea of any real change happening.

[McC]

(07-28-2016, 10:33 AM)GMDino Wrote: Fact check Day 3:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2016/07/28/fact-check-night-3-democratic-convention/87644542/

Wow.  Just...wow.

[Belsnickel]

(07-28-2016, 01:25 PM)McC Wrote: Wow.  Just...wow.

You say this like this is abnormal. Every day of the RNC and every day so far of the DNC has been like this. Hell, Trump's acceptance speech had a list at least this long all on its own and I'm sure Hillary's will as well.

Welcome to 'Murica on display, where the facts don't matter.

[McC]

(07-28-2016, 01:30 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: You say this like this is abnormal. Every day of the RNC and every day so far of the DNC has been like this. Hell, Trump's acceptance speech had a list at least this long all on its own and I'm sure Hillary's will as well.

Welcome to 'Murica on display, where the facts don't matter.

Not abnormal.  Appalling.  I don't give a shit who tells them, lies are lies.  They all think we're morons and they're all laughing at us.

[McC]

(07-28-2016, 01:30 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: You say this like this is abnormal. Every day of the RNC and every day so far of the DNC has been like this. Hell, Trump's acceptance speech had a list at least this long all on its own and I'm sure Hillary's will as well.

Welcome to 'Murica on display, where the facts don't matter.

American politics on display.  Outside of politics, the truth still matters.  That's a mighty big brush you're using.

[GMDino]

(07-28-2016, 01:30 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: You say this like this is abnormal. Every day of the RNC and every day so far of the DNC has been like this. Hell, Trump's acceptance speech had a list at least this long all on its own and I'm sure Hillary's will as well.

Welcome to 'Murica on display, where the facts don't matter.

I think Trump is running at about 93% false on the fact checking since he announced he was running.

He teweeted out that Biden messed one up last night.  One.

[*michaelsean*]

(07-27-2016, 01:24 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: At this point in my life I tend to be center to center-left with regards to the geo-political spectrum. That means that in US terms I am a filthy commie liberal since the DNC would be center-right.

It's interesting, I have been sliding left for several years. I think learning more about global politics and governmental administration has pushed me a bit further left as I have seen how these policies can, and do work. I was very much a libertarian minded person for some time but after learning more about how it all works I can't roll that way anymore. I was so very wrong when I was younger about those things.

If you mean libertarianism, I don't know how you can say it's wrong.  It may no longer be what you prefer, but that doesn't make it wrong. 

Just curious as to some of these policies you are referring to that changed you.

[*michaelsean*]

(07-28-2016, 01:42 PM)GMDino Wrote: I think Trump is running at about 93% false on the fact checking since he announced he was running.

He teweeted out that Biden messed one up last night.  One.

Damn are you going to be bored when Trump is gone.

[GMDino]

(07-28-2016, 01:45 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Damn are you going to be bored when Trump is gone.

I'll happily stop following this stuff.

Edit: My FB feed used to a LOT of political stuff and I finally got away from it. I'll poke fun at people but never the heavy stuff. Trump has dragged me back in.

[*michaelsean*]

(07-28-2016, 01:47 PM)GMDino Wrote: I'll happily stop following this stuff.

Edit:  My FB feed used to a LOT of political stuff and I finally got away from it.  I'll poke fun at people but never the heavy stuff.  Trump has dragged me back in.

You'll be happier if you stop following now.  I read what you guys write here, but that's it.  I'm voting for Gary Johnson and nothing the other two clowns say is going to sway me to them.  I assume you know who you are voting for.  No reason to continue to follow the dog and pony show unless it does entertain you. 

[GMDino]

(07-28-2016, 02:09 PM)michaelsean Wrote: You'll be happier if you stop following now.  I read what you guys write here, but that's it.  I'm voting for Gary Johnson and nothing the other two clowns say is going to sway me to them.  I assume you know who you are voting for.  No reason to continue to follow the dog and pony show unless it does entertain you. 

I know no minds may be changed...I just can't quit making fun of him.  I've tried.  

[Belsnickel]

(07-28-2016, 01:41 PM)McC Wrote: American politics on display.  Outside of politics, the truth still matters.  That's a mighty big brush you're using.

When I say 'Murica I am referring to the overly nationalistic circle jerk that is only amplified within politics. No, not all of the US is like that, but it is more than just what occurs in the political sphere.

(07-28-2016, 01:44 PM)michaelsean Wrote: If you mean libertarianism, I don't know how you can say it's wrong.  It may no longer be what you prefer, but that doesn't make it wrong. 

I said I was wrong. I had swallowed a lot of bull shit with regards to those sorts of things and as a result I had a lot of incorrect opinions.

(07-28-2016, 01:44 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Just curious as to some of these policies you are referring to that changed you.

It'd be hard to really dig into specific policies, and in truth a lot of the things that work in other countries that I have seen I know would not work exactly the same way here. But just seeing that government can actually work effectively and efficiently if the right people are running it is huge.

[masterpanthera_t]

(07-28-2016, 02:50 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: It'd be hard to really dig into specific policies, and in truth a lot of the things that work in other countries that I have seen I know would not work exactly the same way here. But just seeing that government can actually work effectively and efficiently if the right people are running it is huge.

IMO, to achieve that the first thing we need is to get campaign finance reform in place so that elections are publicly funded.  Assuming that this gets the lobbyists off of Washington, then we can hope to have "real" legislators in place, rather than businessmen masquerading as legislators.

[Belsnickel]

(07-28-2016, 02:59 PM)masterpanthera_t Wrote: IMO, to achieve that the first thing we need is to get campaign finance reform in place so that elections are publicly funded.  Assuming that this gets the lobbyists off of Washington, then we can hope to have "real" legislators in place, rather than businessmen masquerading as legislators.

I have to agree. I know we will never get completely rid of the politics and have statesmen, but campaign finance reform at least creates the potential for our elected officials to actually govern rather than continually running for office. But, there again, one of the policies that caused me to abandon my libertarian ideals. Publicly funded elections and campaign finance reform in general would be antithetical to them.

[masterpanthera_t]

(07-28-2016, 03:08 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I have to agree. I know we will never get completely rid of the politics and have statesmen, but campaign finance reform at least creates the potential for our elected officials to actually govern rather than continually running for office. But, there again, one of the policies that caused me to abandon my libertarian ideals. Publicly funded elections and campaign finance reform in general would be antithetical to them.

Even if I may lean libertarian, I'm more of an issue to issue, do what makes sense guy.  Which is another reason why I wish we had more parties and a more nuanced debate on policy and actions rather than a platform which limits the innovative ideas for solving problems.  Especially if the purpose of the government is to serve the people, I don't even see a philosophical deviation from "small government" or whatever, when the public funds the process for electing its representatives.  In fact allowing private expenditure for elections seems more antithetical in the sense that elections have nearly become a commercial enterprise save for the actual vote casting, rather than a truly civic endeavor. 

[Belsnickel]

(07-28-2016, 03:23 PM)masterpanthera_t Wrote: Even if I may lean libertarian, I'm more of an issue to issue, do what makes sense guy.  Which is another reason why I wish we had more parties and a more nuanced debate on policy and actions rather than a platform which limits the innovative ideas for solving problems.  Especially if the purpose of the government is to serve the people, I don't even see a philosophical deviation from "small government" or whatever, when the public funds the process for electing its representatives.  In fact allowing private expenditure for elections seems more antithetical in the sense that elections have nearly become a commercial enterprise save for the actual vote casting, rather than a truly civic endeavor. 

I'm more of an issue-to-issue type as well, which is why I will often say I am a moderate to a center-left person on the geopolitical spectrum rather than really identifying with any particular ideology or party these days.

You're right about the way the election process has gone as of late, but I can't agree that publicly funded elections would not be antithetical.

[*michaelsean*]

(07-28-2016, 03:08 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I have to agree. I know we will never get completely rid of the politics and have statesmen, but campaign finance reform at least creates the potential for our elected officials to actually govern rather than continually running for office. But, there again, one of the policies that caused me to abandon my libertarian ideals. Publicly funded elections and campaign finance reform in general would be antithetical to them.

I don't care how elections are funded.  If you want to run for office, then you live by the rules they pass, what I do care about is limiting my ability to support the person I want by the means I want.  If I want to buy 1000 hours of tv time to support someone, then that's between me and whoever I am purchasing time from.