Democrats Want Change

[xxlt]

(07-16-2017, 08:35 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Is it just me or is the basis for the Democratic party just to ***** about everything just to ***** and to play the victim card where everything is the rich people's fault?  They play the victim card to no end.  It's also weird that lawyers, who are mostly wealthy, typically tend to be Democrats, but I guess they're just caught-up in "fighting for rights."

They want change in EVERYTHING, but not everything needs change and most things don't work the way they want them to work.  

Democrats want everything to be equal, which I agree everyone should have equal OPPORTUNITIES, but the Democratic party seems to just want everyone to have equal lives without having to work for it.

My old man grew up dirt-poor with no money and an alcoholic father, but worked his ass off, went to college on academic scholarship, built his way up, and made an awesome life for my family and I, so I know it can be done.

Am I wrong in this thinking?

Short answer: it's just you.

Longer answer: tens of millions of people grew up just like your dad, worked just as hard, but were not as fortunate. They face tremendous financial hardship every day even though they did all the same things he did. And the scariest part: many of them are Republicans just like you and your dad! Failure and misfortune don't just target Democrats, they target Red Blooded American Patriotic Republicans too!

I don't doubt for one second that your dad is one hell of a swell guy Brad, but in addition to working like a dog and playing by the rules, he got lucky. Not every does. And I know it is really hard to believe, but the awesome life you and your family enjoy isn't nearly as locked down as you think it is.

Of all people Brad, I would think you would understand that. You go around and educate teens about the disastrous results of one bad decision, right? But just think - what if you had been lucky? What if you weren't home when your buddy wanted to joy ride in the cemetery? What if you had gone fishing that day with another friend and not been home? What if his car had got a flat before you guys got out of your subdivision and you said, "Oh well, guess we'll just walk back to my house and watch TV and deal with the car in the morning." Ever thought about that?

You are a great dude, but I suspect had that accident not occurred your life would be significantly different and you might even say more enjoyable. You had some bad luck - you were home when your buddy showed up to go joy riding. And you were a great kid with a bright future. Just like your dad. But see, everybody who works hard and plays by the rules and has a bright future on and off the field doesn't always have good luck or make the right decision every single time. And one bad decision or one bit of bad luck can wipe out an awful lot. I invite you to consider that before you start talking about "all" of any group wanting to do "something wrong" and "change everything."

You are looking at another opportunity to walk, right? Thanks to the stem cell thing you are pursuing right? I think that is awesome dude! I am all for people getting multiple opportunities at success, especially if they will work hard and play by the rules. Are you for that too? Because if you are, you might just be a Democrat! Or you might at least realize that Democrats can want the EXACT same thing you do if you are willing to listen and talk with them rather than blanket them with the kind of accusations you made in your post above.

Peace, buddy. And good luck with your second chance. If it doesn't work out, this Democrat will be pulling for you to get many more chances.

[xxlt]

(07-17-2017, 03:47 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: Every lawyer in this area (including the lawyers that worked on my cases) are very die-hard Democrats.

A simple internet search will show pages like this one:



Kind of sums up the two parties to me:  Republicans want to build a foundation and a country where everyone can join-in and benefit, whereas Democrats are more worried about making sure everyone gets a share without having to work for it.

Were you opposed to Republicans working on your case? Were there Republicans begging to help that you turned away?

Brad, I can search the internet and find plenty of quotes that say Democrats are God's chosen people and Republicans molest farm animals and bake children in the oven like the witch in Hansel and Gretel. That does not make these things true.

Someone was nice enough to post a link to the Democratic Party platform. The quote you posted was from someone who put it "in their own words" and clearly that person hates Democrats. He or she is entitled to that opinion, but why don't you at least read the platform in the words of the people who created it? Then decide for yourself whether it says what your quote says or says something very different. I can promise you right now you will not find the words, "We want everyone to get a share whether they work for it or not" in the DNC platform.

In fact, I will bet you whatever you want to bet it is not there! Just read it for yourself. Heck, you might find you hate Democrats even more than you already do, but at least you will hate them for real reasons and not bogus ones!

[*Nately120*]

(07-17-2017, 03:47 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: Kind of sums up the two parties to me:  Republicans want to build a foundation and a country where everyone can join-in and benefit, whereas Democrats are more worried about making sure everyone gets a share without having to work for it.

That's an interesting take on the two parties.  Not to get overly personal, but I assume you are a republican and I'm a bit curious as to what you do for a living and how that jives with your political beliefs.  

[treee]

(07-17-2017, 12:18 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: It's actually very difficult to. The reason is because even the Democrat platform is meaningless. Elected officials with the party's letter attached to their name do not have to adhere to the platform. Both parties are gigantic tents that encompass a wide range of ideologies (and ad hoc opinions on policy, which is what most people have). Specifically on the concept of social programs the Democrats and Republicans aren't that far off in the mainstream thinking. This is a result of what I talk about a good bit, neoliberal tendencies that have been existent in both parties since about the Reagan era.

Now, there are more liberal camps in the Democratic party that would like to remove the bipartisan welfare reforms from the Clinton-era and provide a stronger social safety net. They are more liberal than the "mainstream" ideologies of the party, though. They have had a stronger voice as of late thanks to Bernie Sanders, but even so they aren't all that united. Sanders calls himself a Democratic Socialist, but just right of that are Social Democrats. They are right of the Sanders crowd, but left of the mainstream Democrat platform. And those are just two ideological positions that on the global scale are considered slightly left and center left, but they both have different ideas on the social safety net from each other, and from what the majority of Democrats and what the part establishment calls for.

But, and this is important to note, there is no ideology that just calls for giving people the money to live without working for it. None. Pure socialism requires those able to work, to work. Most social program reforms pushed for by more liberal ideologies than this country is used to calls for stronger job training programs established by the government to get people into the work force. The problem is that the way things are approached is more about scoring political points than crafting effective policy. This has only gotten worse over the past few decades as we have seen a negative attitude towards the bureaucracy that has resulted in lobbyists doing most of the drafting of legislation in Washington.

I'm just tired of many Democrats avoiding the elephant in the room: That their party is also tarnished by corporate influence (read:more than lobbying). This is coming from someone who identifies with many progressive policies. Or maybe CTR is still going in full force and I need to talk to more dems than just on the internet instead of being a shut-in.

[Belsnickel]

(07-17-2017, 05:23 PM)treee Wrote: I'm just tired of many Democrats avoiding the elephant in the room: That their party is also tarnished by corporate influence (read:more than lobbying). This is coming from someone who identifies with many progressive policies. Or maybe CTR is still going in full force and I need to talk to more dems than just on the internet instead of being a shut-in.

I definitely agree. This is, again, something we have seen in the past 40 years or so where they have moved further into that direction.

[BFritz21]

(07-17-2017, 01:47 PM)xxlt Wrote: Short answer: it's just you.

Longer answer: tens of millions of people grew up just like your dad, worked just as hard, but were not as fortunate. They face tremendous financial hardship every day even though they did all the same things he did. And the scariest part: many of them are Republicans just like you and your dad! Failure and misfortune don't just target Democrats, they target Red Blooded American Patriotic Republicans too!

I don't doubt for one second that your dad is one hell of a swell guy Brad, but in addition to working like a dog and playing by the rules, he got lucky. Not every does. And I know it is really hard to believe, but the awesome life you and your family enjoy isn't nearly as locked down as you think it is.

Of all people Brad, I would think you would understand that. You go around and educate teens about the disastrous results of one bad decision, right? But just think - what if you had been lucky? What if you weren't home when your buddy wanted to joy ride in the cemetery? What if you had gone fishing that day with another friend and not been home? What if his car had got a flat before you guys got out of your subdivision and you said, "Oh well, guess we'll just walk back to my house and watch TV and deal with the car in the morning." Ever thought about that?

You are a great dude, but I suspect had that accident not occurred your life would be significantly different and you might even say more enjoyable. You had some bad luck - you were home when your buddy showed up to go joy riding. And you were a great kid with a bright future. Just like your dad. But see, everybody who works hard and plays by the rules and has a bright future on and off the field doesn't always have good luck or make the right decision every single time. And one bad decision or one bit of bad luck can wipe out an awful lot. I invite you to consider that before you start talking about "all" of any group wanting to do "something wrong" and "change everything."

You are looking at another opportunity to walk, right? Thanks to the stem cell thing you are pursuing right? I think that is awesome dude! I am all for people getting multiple opportunities at success, especially if they will work hard and play by the rules. Are you for that too? Because if you are, you might just be a Democrat! Or you might at least realize that Democrats can want the EXACT same thing you do if you are willing to listen and talk with them rather than blanket them with the kind of accusations you made in your post above.

Peace, buddy. And good luck with your second chance. If it doesn't work out, this Democrat will be pulling for you to get many more chances.

He got lucky?  He started out living in a tiny house with my mom and just slowly kept his head down, worked hard, did what was asked, and built himself up over forty-plus years.  

That's where I'm bothered by the link that was posted and what I stated earlier in that this is the land of OPPORTUNITY, not the land where everything is just handed to you.

I was unlucky but I've still worked my ass off to make something of my life, against all odds.  My father was not lucky, but rather persistent in working for what he wanted and never letting up, and he made that happen.  Some may not be able to reach the same level as he has, but there is nothing holding people back from working their asses off and at least making it to the middle class.

(07-17-2017, 01:57 PM)xxlt Wrote: Were you opposed to Republicans working on your case? Were there Republicans begging to help that you turned away?

Brad, I can search the internet and find plenty of quotes that say Democrats are God's chosen people and Republicans molest farm animals and bake children in the oven like the witch in Hansel and Gretel. That does not make these things true.

Someone was nice enough to post a link to the Democratic Party platform. The quote you posted was from someone who put it "in their own words" and clearly that person hates Democrats. He or she is entitled to that opinion, but why don't you at least read the platform in the words of the people who created it? Then decide for yourself whether it says what your quote says or says something very different. I can promise you right now you will not find the words, "We want everyone to get a share whether they work for it or not" in the DNC platform.

In fact, I will bet you whatever you want to bet it is not there! Just read it for yourself. Heck, you might find you hate Democrats even more than you already do, but at least you will hate them for real reasons and not bogus ones!

Democrats worked on my case.  I was not opposed to having the best lawyers work on my case, regardless of political belief, which is another area that I think the Democrats are flawed in, in that they think any idea put forth by Republicans is greedy and just trying to step on the little guy, whereas Republicans want to strengthen the entire economy and nation in every class.

I read the link that was provided and it just strengthened my opinion, and that's that Democrats just blame Republicans for the problems of the nation and think that they're all just money-hungry rich pricks that are holding them down from getting ahead in life.

They want to close the wealth-gap in the country and strengthen the middle class, but you don't do that by just taxing the wealthy and giving it to the poor/lower class.  The wealthy are the ones that hire people and start new businesses and create jobs, so you give them incentives to do that and then the people who aren't as fortunate learn the trade or job, or even go to trade school or college, and it builds the middle class.

Too many times you hear Democrats, either poor people the news picks off the street or even politicians, just assuming that they should get their fair share without having to work for it.

(07-17-2017, 03:27 PM)Nately120 Wrote: That's an interesting take on the two parties.  Not to get overly personal, but I assume you are a republican and I'm a bit curious as to what you do for a living and how that jives with your political beliefs.  

Actually, I am currently a public "speaker" about my life and everything that happened because that's my passion.  At some point, I will need another job because I won't be able to have the same impact when I get a bit older, but I am on SSI because I need that to have enough money to survive.  My issue is people that use SSI just as a handout and don't use it to try and better their lives.

[treee]

(07-17-2017, 05:26 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I definitely agree. This is, again, something we have seen in the past 40 years or so where they have moved further into that direction.

It is difficult to address concerns like these when political campaigns are becoming something resembling a 'reality TV show' rather than an open dialogue between politicians and civic minded individuals.

[Belsnickel]

(07-17-2017, 05:43 PM)treee Wrote: It is difficult to address concerns like these when political campaigns are becoming something resembling a 'reality TV show' rather than an open dialogue between politicians and civic minded individuals.

We have moved away from the idea of evidence based policy decisions in our government. I have made this comment before, but people vote with their guts on election day, not their brains. That's all fine and dandy as long as the people we are electing actually vote with their brains. It has become increasingly clear, though, that the elected officials are voting more with their guts and their party than they are with any sort of knowledge about the policy being discussed.

[samhain]

(07-17-2017, 05:29 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: He got lucky?  He started out living in a tiny house with my mom and just slowly kept his head down, worked hard, did what was asked, and built himself up over forty-plus years.  

That's where I'm bothered by the link that was posted and what I stated earlier in that this is the land of OPPORTUNITY, not the land where everything is just handed to you.

I was unlucky but I've still worked my ass off to make something of my life, against all odds.  My father was not lucky, but rather persistent in working for what he wanted and never letting up, and he made that happen.  Some may not be able to reach the same level as he has, but there is nothing holding people back from working their asses off and at least making it to the middle class.
Democrats worked on my case.  I was not opposed to having the best lawyers work on my case, regardless of political belief, which is another area that I think the Democrats are flawed in, in that they think any idea put forth by Republicans is greedy and just trying to step on the little guy, whereas Republicans want to strengthen the entire economy and nation in every class.

I read the link that was provided and it just strengthened my opinion, and that's that Democrats just blame Republicans for the problems of the nation and think that they're all just money-hungry rich pricks that are holding them down from getting ahead in life.

They want to close the wealth-gap in the country and strengthen the middle class, but you don't do that by just taxing the wealthy and giving it to the poor/lower class.  The wealthy are the ones that hire people and start new businesses and create jobs, so you give them incentives to do that and then the people who aren't as fortunate learn the trade or job, or even go to trade school or college, and it builds the middle class.

Too many times you hear Democrats, either poor people the news picks off the street or even politicians, just assuming that they should get their fair share without having to work for it.

Actually, I am currently a public "speaker" about my life and everything that happened because that's my passion.  At some point, I will need another job because I won't be able to have the same impact when I get a bit older, but I am on SSI because I need that to have enough money to survive.  My issue is people that use SSI just as a handout and don't use it to try and better their lives.

Trickle down is a load of shit and you still believe it.  That's why the income gap grows.  Companies don't magically pay people more because they make more money.  These days they turn around and re-invest it in their own stock to inflate it's value.  They will cut pay and benefits whether the tide is high or low, because it adds to their bottom line and because cheap labor overseas makes it easy to undercut the American worker.

There was a time when it was believed that a better paid workforce spent more money and helped bolster the overall economy.  Now that's out the window.  Globalization has done away with it.  Credit plays a role, too.  People borrow to buy things they can't afford, perpetuating the cycle of inflated prices.

AI will add to this.  Companies that still employ in the manufacturing sector are investing hundreds of millions in it.  They aren't doing it to make robots that help old ladies cross the street.  They do it so they don't have to hire/pay anyone.  When this sets in, this nation will either become (eventually) a full-fledged welfare state (not the imaginary one that repubs think we are now, but an actual one), or a facist autocratic heaven. Either way, the political parties will continue to drift in extreme directions and political violence will become commonplace.  The only means of survival will be government-funded subsistence.  People willing to work won't, because there will be no work for them.  We will do drugs, get gubment checks, murder and beat the shit out of each other, and die fat and useless.  All because of the good ole rich who you love so much, dying to get more regardless of the consequences to society.  

[Vlad]

(07-16-2017, 08:35 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Is it just me or is the basis for the Democratic party just to ***** about everything just to ***** and to play the victim card where everything is the rich people's fault?  They play the victim card to no end.  It's also weird that lawyers, who are mostly wealthy, typically tend to be Democrats, but I guess they're just caught-up in "fighting for rights."

They want change in EVERYTHING, but not everything needs change and most things don't work the way they want them to work.  

Democrats want everything to be equal, which I agree everyone should have equal OPPORTUNITIES, but the Democratic party seems to just want everyone to have equal lives without having to work for it.

My old man grew up dirt-poor with no money and an alcoholic father, but worked his ass off, went to college on academic scholarship, built his way up, and made an awesome life for my family and I, so I know it can be done.

Am I wrong in this thinking?

You're right. 
 
Agree there should be equal opportunities for all, NOT equal outcomes for all...as democrats believe.
Enter the social justice warriors. The idea of "social justice" is meaningless. There exists either justice or injustice.

The principles of justice apply to the rules of institutions and social practices, but not to the distribution of certain things to certain people.

[Vlad]

(07-17-2017, 05:45 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: We have moved away from the idea of evidence based policy decisions in our government. I have made this comment before, but people vote with their guts on election day, not their brains. That's all fine and dandy as long as the people we are electing actually vote with their brains. It has become increasingly clear, though, that the elected officials are voting more with their guts and their party than they are with any sort of knowledge about the policy being discussed.

If people who had brains voted with them there would never be a democrat president.

Instead they vote with their feelings and emotions. That's how Obama got elected..."the first black president, how cool is that"!?!?!?!.
Hillary ran on nothing, no message.

Then there are people without brains. The low information types. They also vote democrat.  Those who don't even know how many states there are in the U.S....or the misinformed who get their news from Bill Maher then go and try and assassinate Republicans at a baseball game.

[xxlt]

(07-17-2017, 05:26 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I definitely agree. This is, again, something we have seen in the past 40 years or so where they have moved further into that direction.

Yet Brad and the commentators of FOX and the Wall Street Journal would have you believe the Democratic Party is far to the left of Castro. The truth is today Nixon and Reagan would be welcomed as Democrats and the Republican Party would have nothing to do with either of them as they would be considered "radical leftists."

[xxlt]

(07-17-2017, 05:29 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: He got lucky?  He started out living in a tiny house with my mom and just slowly kept his head down, worked hard, did what was asked, and built himself up over forty-plus years.  

That's where I'm bothered by the link that was posted and what I stated earlier in that this is the land of OPPORTUNITY, not the land where everything is just handed to you.

I was unlucky but I've still worked my ass off to make something of my life, against all odds.  My father was not lucky, but rather persistent in working for what he wanted and never letting up, and he made that happen.  Some may not be able to reach the same level as he has, but there is nothing holding people back from working their asses off and at least making it to the middle class.
Democrats worked on my case.  I was not opposed to having the best lawyers work on my case, regardless of political belief, which is another area that I think the Democrats are flawed in, in that they think any idea put forth by Republicans is greedy and just trying to step on the little guy, whereas Republicans want to strengthen the entire economy and nation in every class.

I read the link that was provided and it just strengthened my opinion, and that's that Democrats just blame Republicans for the problems of the nation and think that they're all just money-hungry rich pricks that are holding them down from getting ahead in life.

They want to close the wealth-gap in the country and strengthen the middle class, but you don't do that by just taxing the wealthy and giving it to the poor/lower class.  The wealthy are the ones that hire people and start new businesses and create jobs, so you give them incentives to do that and then the people who aren't as fortunate learn the trade or job, or even go to trade school or college, and it builds the middle class.

Too many times you hear Democrats, either poor people the news picks off the street or even politicians, just assuming that they should get their fair share without having to work for it.

Actually, I am currently a public "speaker" about my life and everything that happened because that's my passion.  At some point, I will need another job because I won't be able to have the same impact when I get a bit older, but I am on SSI because I need that to have enough money to survive.  My issue is people that use SSI just as a handout and don't use it to try and better their lives.

You do realize that there is one party that wants to cut SSI payments because EVERYONE uses them as a handout and one party that wants to preserve them because deadbeats like you might have a legitimate need for them, right? No, or course you don't. If you did you wouldn't take SSI, you would put your head down and work hard like your dad and climb into the middle class. What is stopping you? I'll tell you what. SSI. Those payments have undercut your will to work hard and make something of yourself. Get off the payments dude! The government is making you lazy and holding you back from your potential! It has happened to lots of victims of these big government programs like SSI. It is really sad to see it happen within a family. The government steals your father's hard earned money. They call it taxes, but it is theft! Then they give it to lazy people like you who won't work hard to earn what your dad earned! Make your dad and all of us proud Brad. Stop taking SSI. You don't need it. Nobody does.

[GMDino]

(07-18-2017, 09:04 AM)Vlad Wrote: If people who had brains voted with them there would never be a democrat president.

Instead they vote with their feelings and emotions. That's how Obama got elected..."the first black president, how cool is that"!?!?!?!.
Hillary ran on nothing, no message.

Then there are people without brains. The low information types. They also vote democrat.  Those who don't even know how many states there are in the U.S....or the misinformed who get their news from Bill Maher then go and try and assassinate Republicans at a baseball game.

Clinton had a message...it might not have been one people wanted to hear, but she was clear.

People voted for gilded pamphlet that was shiny and distracting rather than the novel that involved thought.

[Belsnickel]

(07-18-2017, 09:04 AM)Vlad Wrote: If people who had brains voted with them there would never be a democrat president.

Instead they vote with their feelings and emotions. That's how Obama got elected..."the first black president, how cool is that"!?!?!?!.
Hillary ran on nothing, no message.

Then there are people without brains. The low information types. They also vote democrat.  Those who don't even know how many states there are in the U.S....or the misinformed who get their news from Bill Maher then go and try and assassinate Republicans at a baseball game.

This is the kind of inflammatory partisan attack that does nothing to further the discussion on these topics. It is in itself an argument rooted not in logic and knowledge but in emotion.

Now, to respond to your post. The majority of both parties vote based on emotion. It is not a one-side thing. For example, Trump may have had a message but it was an empty one. There was no substance to back it up. Clinton didn't have a strong message, but her campaign had white papers upon white papers outlining her policy positions.

Emotion won the day in the electoral vote because people don't care about policy positions when they cast their vote, they care about the message. Caring about the message is what makes elections about emotion rather than logic and knowledge.

[samhain]

(07-18-2017, 09:18 AM)xxlt Wrote: You do realize that there is one party that wants to cut SSI payments because EVERYONE uses them as a handout and one party that wants to preserve them because deadbeats like you might have a legitimate need for them, right? No, or course you don't. If you did you wouldn't take SSI, you would put your head down and work hard like your dad and climb into the middle class. What is stopping you? I'll tell you what. SSI. Those payments have undercut your will to work hard and make something of yourself. Get off the payments dude! The government is making you lazy and holding you back from your potential! It has happened to lots of victims of these big government programs like SSI. It is really sad to see it happen within a family. The government steals your father's hard earned money. They call it taxes, but it is theft! Then they give it to lazy people like you who won't work hard to earn what your dad earned! Make your dad and all of us proud Brad. Stop taking SSI. You don't need it. Nobody does.

No doubt on the last part.  I have a kid and a mortgage.  If we get rid of people like Brad sucking at the teat of big government, then the rest of us folks can better provide for our families. Is it on me to pay when some poor sap gets diagnosed with cancer an incurs a shitload of bills and lost time? Hell no. No more than it's on me to pay for the victim of an auto accident that I had no involvement in.  It's on him, not you or me to make good on his unfortunate scenario.  He needs to get a real job, too.  Pretty funny how everyone else is taking advantage of a government program, but when you're benefitting from it, it's a holy exception.

I wouldn't worry if I were him, though.  The pressure of the free market will gently encourage him to figure out some way to survive.  The only law is natural law, of course.

[Dill]

(07-17-2017, 12:18 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: But, and this is important to note, there is no ideology that just calls for giving people the money to live without working for it. None. Pure socialism requires those able to work, to work. Most social program reforms pushed for by more liberal ideologies than this country is used to calls for stronger job training programs established by the government to get people into the work force. The problem is that the way things are approached is more about scoring political points than crafting effective policy. This has only gotten worse over the past few decades as we have seen a negative attitude towards the bureaucracy that has resulted in lobbyists doing most of the drafting of legislation in Washington.

Well said.  But you are going by Democrats stated goals and what they are working towards.

Bfritz was going by what right-wing Republican opinion-leaders tell their followers about Democrats. 

Hence the difference in your views of the party and its goals.

[Dill]

(07-17-2017, 05:45 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: We have moved away from the idea of evidence based policy decisions in our government. I have made this comment before, but people vote with their guts on election day, not their brains. That's all fine and dandy as long as the people we are electing actually vote with their brains. It has become increasingly clear, though, that the elected officials are voting more with their guts and their party than they are with any sort of knowledge about the policy being discussed.

All of us haven't. Some of us still won't believe there is widespread voter fraud when no data supports that claim. Some still don't believe that Muslim immigrants from the Middle East are a serious threat to security.


But enough have moved away from evidence-based policy that the critical mass needed for Trump's election was reached.

[Dill]

(07-18-2017, 08:28 AM)Vlad Wrote: You're right. 
 
Agree there should be equal opportunities for all, NOT equal outcomes for all...as democrats believe.
Enter the social justice warriors. The idea of "social justice" is meaningless. There exists either justice or injustice.

The principles of justice apply to the rules of institutions and social practices, but not to the distribution of certain things to certain people.

Could you perhaps cite a national or state party platform that supports you claim that Democrats seek "equal outcomes"?

[Dill]

(07-16-2017, 10:17 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote:
The way the college scam is set up now, you don't need to be smart to get a degree. You just need to be willing to go into massive debt for a generally useless piece of paper. Go to a trade school or technical school.

Not all work is created equal. 40 hours of "do you want fries with that?" or "Welcome to Walmart, have a nice day." isn't intended for people to support a family on. Get a certification in something and get a better job.

Of course vocational training is the best route for some. And society needs electricians and plumbers and truck drivers.

But it's not really true that you don't need to be smart to get a college degree.

And I add that there is a great difference in the level of difficulty between degrees in physics, computer science and math, on the one hand, and hospitality management and criminology on the other. But pretty much all students face gen ed requirements and must exert some discipline to attend class, write papers, pass exams, etc., even if they take less rigorous majors.

I don't understand why you speak of a "useless piece of paper."  I don't think of higher ed as strictly speaking "vocational"--a liberal education is a valuable end in itself--but doctors, lawyers, and engineers are generally paid well on top of that.