Diabetes- The Money's In The Treatment, Not The Cure

[BFritz21]

As some people might remember, I have posted the idea that there's a cure for cancer or there would be but, every time someone gets close or finds one, the drug companies buy it and destroy it because the money's in the treatment, not the cure. A cure would be difficult to patten and companies would just keep finding cheaper ways of making it.

One of my professors in college first told our class that theory and I had never thought about it, but then I told my dad about the idea and wondered his thoughts on it. He's diabetic, agreed with my professor, and said that's why there will never be a cure for diabetes because the insulin companies will buy it up and destroy it.

I finally decided to look into how much money insulin makes and, in 2021, the market size was 20.55 BILLION DOLLARS!

No wonder they'll do whatever they can from keeping a cure from becoming available to the public!

[BigPapaKain]

If only a certain sect of politicians would stop voting against price control on Healthcare and medication in the US.

Third world country in a knock off Gucci belt.

[NATI BENGALS]

Typical college brainwashing their students with left wing ideas.


https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/republicans-block-cap-insulin-costs-many-americans-democratic-deal-rcna41913

[BFritz21]

(10-17-2022, 10:48 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Typical college brainwashing their students with left wing ideas.


https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/republicans-block-cap-insulin-costs-many-americans-democratic-deal-rcna41913

You want the government to tell companies what to do with their money and how they can run their businesses?

[KillerGoose]

(10-17-2022, 11:07 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: You want the government to tell companies what to do with their money and how they can run their businesses?

I am personally fine with it in this instance. I am also for a socialized healthcare system, though, so that shouldn’t be surprising. Anecdote, but a story that always blows me away. I dated a girl in college who underwent brain surgery several years before I met her. She confided in me that she had over $1m in medical debt from that surgery. After we broke up, she had to have another brain surgery and was then diagnosed with cancer.

She is still alive and well, but she also has absurd medical debt. I just don’t believe that medical treatments should cost that much. I would out insulin under that umbrella, too.

[GMDino]

(10-17-2022, 08:35 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: As some people might remember, I have posted the idea that there's a cure for cancer or there would be but, every time someone gets close or finds one, the drug companies buy it and destroy it because the money's in the treatment, not the cure. A cure would be difficult to patten and companies would just keep finding cheaper ways of making it.

One of my professors in college first told our class that theory and I had never thought about it, but then I told my dad about the idea and wondered his thoughts on it. He's diabetic, agreed with my professor, and said that's why there will never be a cure for diabetes because the insulin companies will buy it up and destroy it.

I finally decided to look into how much money insulin makes and, in 2021, the market size was 20.55 BILLION DOLLARS!

No wonder they'll do whatever they can from keeping a cure from becoming available to the public!

Why do you hate capitalism?  

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/why-insulin-so-expensive-diabetes-united-states-rcna39295

Quote:But why does insulin — a medication that’s been around for more than 100 years — remain unaffordable for many people in the U.S.?


The high cost can be attributed in part to “evergreening,” a process in which drug companies make incremental improvements to their products that can extend the life of their patents, said Dr. Kevin Riggs, a physician at the University of Alabama at Birmingham Heersink School of Medicine. He co-wrote a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine in 2015 that described the century-long history of the drug.


The improvements may include tinkering with a molecule or changing the delivery system, such as using insulin pens instead of vials.


Extending patents[color=var(--article-body-content-strong)] can discourage[color=var(--article-body-content-strong)] [/color]generic drugs from being developed, Riggs said, allowing drugmakers with exclusive rights to their insulin to charge whatever the market will bear. And as supply chains have become more complicated over the years, costs have ballooned.[/color]


“And so that means those prices have gone up crazy,” he said. 


And even when the patents do expire — as many have — Riggs said that the large investment it takes to get insulin manufactured and approved by U.S. regulators may make the venture less appealing to generic drugmakers.

And in case you wondered or didn't know:

https://www.vox.com/2019/4/3/18293950/why-is-insulin-so-expensive

Quote:When inventor Frederick Banting discovered insulin in 1923, he refused to put his name on the patent. He felt it was unethical for a doctor to profit from a discovery that would save lives. Banting’s co-inventors, James Collip and Charles Best, sold the insulin patent to the University of Toronto for a mere $1. They wanted everyone who needed their medication to be able to afford it.


Today, Banting and his colleagues would be spinning in their graves: Their drug, which many of the 30 million Americans with diabetes rely on, has become the poster child for pharmaceutical price gouging.
The cost of the four most popular types of insulin has tripled over the past decade, and the out-of-pocket prescription costs patients now face have doubled. By 2016, the average price per month rose to $450 — and costs continue to rise, so much so that as many as one in four people with diabetes are now skimping on or skipping lifesaving doses.


...


“As solutions to the insulin-cost crisis are being considered,” a new New England Journal of Medicine editorial argues, “there is value in remembering that when the patent for insulin was first drafted in 1923, Banting and Macleod declined to be named on it. Both felt that insulin belonged to the public. Now, nearly 100 years later, insulin is inaccessible to thousands of Americans because of its high cost.”

...

The US is a global outlier on money spent on the drug, representing only 15 percent of the global insulin market and generating almost half of the pharmaceutical industry’s insulin revenue. According to a recent study in JAMA Internal Medicine, in the 1990s Medicaid paid between $2.36 and $4.43 per unit of insulin; by 2014, those prices more than tripled, depending on the formulation.

Much more at the the links about how elected officials (mostly Democrats) have tried to rein in prices only to be stymied by the other party.

I am 100% certain you will not care or believe any of it but I was bored and thought I'd try to genuinely answer your question.

[treee]

There are thousands of types of cancer, some with cures, some with treatments, some even with vaccines (vaccinating against viruses that cause cancer). There is no universal cure to cancer and there will not likely be for a long time until a something big changes like a breakthrough in nano-technology.

[Belsnickel]

(10-17-2022, 11:07 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: You want the government to tell companies what to do with their money and how they can run their businesses?

That's quite literally the only solution to problems like this. Government regulation is supposed to be a tool for exactly these types of scenarios. Adam Smith was full of shit.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Education on the matter (in regards to diet) is tons more important than meds.

My father has been type-2 diabetic for 20 years now (or 19) and his father (my grandfather), for 40 years until he died. He was diagnosed in the 60s or 70s and his late brother had it, both of his twin sisters had/have it (one is still alive) as well. They took/take their meds, as they didn't really care about their diet (my grandfather regularly had ice cream, fried foods, etc., until his death). Don't have many fine details on the 3 siblings though, as they've never left Italy; just know that they didn't hold back on indulging.

My father takes 2 pills a day for insulin help, but his diet is such that he can go DAYS without taking any pill and his BS will be at a good level (but my father likes to indulge here and there, which forces him to be vigilant with his meds). I used to work with an elderly Argentinian lady that was diagnosed and then 8 months later, through diet, completely reversed any ill effects and effectively wasn't diabetic anymore.

For type-1, you NEED insulin, so that's a bit different and just seeing the nature of things, I don't think that can be cured (how can your body produce what isn't there?), but I am not educated-enough on type-1 to have any strong opinions on the matter. But for type-2, eat properly and then Big Pharma won't be making nearly as much as they are.

And **** Ozempic. What a terrible med.

[*Nately120*]

These days if a cure for diabetes was discovered half of the population would read online that it's going to turn you into a giraffe or something and refuse to take it, anyways.

And I realize as someone who identifies as an obstinate dumbass libertarian that I should be stereotypically applauding our country's zeal for deregulating itself in a manner which kills us, but lordy loo we sure do love voting for politicians who give us the one two punch of making sure the stuff that kills us is 100% legal and damn near unavoidable and that it is also 100% legal to make sure we put ourselves into financial ruin to prevent that stuff from killing us.

Let's talk conspiracy.

High fructose corn syrup was designed by the Japanese not terribly long after WWII and we've been killing ourselves with it for decades...is this their subtle revenge for the USA dropping the bomb on them twice?

[Arturo Bandini]

In France, insuline is 42€ for 5 shots and totally paid back by healthcare.

I guess the difference is that being healed is a right not a business.

[Belsnickel]

(10-18-2022, 09:49 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Education on the matter (in regards to diet) is tons more important than meds.

My father has been type-2 diabetic for 20 years now (or 19) and his father (my grandfather), for 40 years until he died. He was diagnosed in the 60s or 70s and his late brother had it, both of his twin sisters had/have it (one is still alive) as well. They took/take their meds, as they didn't really care about their diet (my grandfather regularly had ice cream, fried foods, etc., until his death). Don't have many fine details on the 3 siblings though, as they've never left Italy; just know that they didn't hold back on indulging.

My father takes 2 pills a day for insulin help, but his diet is such that he can go DAYS without taking any pill and his BS will be at a good level (but my father likes to indulge here and there, which forces him to be vigilant with his meds). I used to work with an elderly Argentinian lady that was diagnosed and then 8 months later, through diet, completely reversed any ill effects and effectively wasn't diabetic anymore.

For type-1, you NEED insulin, so that's a bit different and just seeing the nature of things, I don't think that can be cured (how can your body produce what isn't there?), but I am not educated-enough on type-1 to have any strong opinions on the matter. But for type-2, eat properly and then Big Pharma won't be making nearly as much as they are.

And **** Ozempic. What a terrible med.

Curious what your issue is with Ozempic?

FWIW, I have been Type II for 11 years or so. My diet isn't great, but could be much worse. My issue definitely lies in the genes as well and there are some additional complications I can thank the US government for that make it what it is (my condition is very similar to my father's, which was linked to his contact with Agent Orange in Vietnam, which means it was a mutation that was genetically passed to me). That being said, I will be having a sleeve gastrectomy in 29 days, so we'll see what happens.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(10-18-2022, 12:38 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Curious what your issue is with Ozempic?

FWIW, I have been Type II for 11 years or so. My diet isn't great, but could be much worse. My issue definitely lies in the genes as well and there are some additional complications I can thank the US government for that make it what it is (my condition is very similar to my father's, which was linked to his contact with Agent Orange in Vietnam, which means it was a mutation that was genetically passed to me). That being said, I will be having a sleeve gastrectomy in 29 days, so we'll see what happens.

I'm so sorry to hear that, Matt; genetics due to... genes (lol) is one thing, but to be sparked by chemical warfare? That makes me feel bad

And yes, with my dad's side (namely my dad's, dad's side), it is RAMPANT. Others of my great aunts, my great grandmother and cousins also ALL had/have it, it's insane.

As for Ozempic, one of the side effects (as I'm sure you're aware, Matt), is that you can get nauseous and feel like crap. My dad switched to it in... March or April? Not sure, but it was right before the spring and while my dad eats well, he doesn't eat frequently and when he doesn't eat frequently, he gets severely nauseous from the meds. Our fishing trips this year have been fraught with bouts of his vomiting and needing to stop what he's doing (which involves crashing into rocks {among other things}, albeit at trolling speed), until the episode passes. He tried to take it less and less (think he did 1 pill a day? My dad is all about lofty goals and ideas, but he never delves into them unless they are successful ), but then he would indulge and then feel like crap 'cause he would be close to having a glycemic episode: it's been a nightmare for him and I don't know if he stopped cold turkey, but he was put back on Tradjenta, starting 2 Fridays ago.

I was thinking of taking the rest of his pills and ingesting them myself, since it has also been prescribed as a weight loss med lol (but I don't **** with drugs unless I'm prescribed them and need them).

[Goalpost]

I'm over 60 and have been Type II now for about 2 months. I take pills every day, 2 in the morning and 2 in the evening. Once a week I take an Ozempic injection. My insurance requires me to satisfy a 1000 dollar deductible on the Ozempic which is the 1st 4 months worth. The other 8 months will cost me about 200 dollars. So I will pay about 1200 a year with my insurance. I have a moderate insurance plan, a silver level, which I raised to when I retired. When I worked I was at a bronze level. Basically, my doctor said the pills will knock me down an A1C point, and the injection, another point. That will put me at an 8, and the rest is up to me with diet to get it below a 7 level. I know someone who was an 11 A1C and he got himself down to about a 6.5 thru diet and exercise. I'm kind of in a grey area right now with a visit every 3 or 4 months to the doctor instead of the usual 6 months of a normal physical to gauge how I'm doing. Mine is definitely genetic thru my mother's side.

[BigPapaKain]

(10-18-2022, 12:28 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: In France, insuline is 42€ for 5 shots and totally paid back by healthcare.

I guess the difference is that being healed is a right not a business.

God damned Frenchies getting cheap meds. WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE MULTI BILLION DOLLAR CONGLOMERATE AND THEIR SHARE HOLDERS?!?!?

Seriously though, I wonder what it's like to be governed by a body that works for the people as opposed to trying to drop shady sound bites 24/7.

[HarleyDog]

(10-17-2022, 11:32 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I am personally fine with it in this instance. I am also for a socialized healthcare system, though, so that shouldn’t be surprising. Anecdote, but a story that always blows me away. I dated a girl in college who underwent brain surgery several years before I met her. She confided in me that she had over $1m in medical debt from that surgery. After we broke up, she had to have another brain surgery and was then diagnosed with cancer.

She is still alive and well, but she also has absurd medical debt. I just don’t believe that medical treatments should cost that much. I would out insulin under that umbrella, too.

I agree. Medical debt is insane and a disgrace. There is no current solution within reach. Insurance is a scam while politicians and healthcare providers are scammers. One thing that really pisses me off is a person can go to the DR and if he doesn't have insurance, his bill is $300 while if he does, it's discounted from $300 to $100 for the same appointment because the insurance companies have pre-negotiated rates. People should not be punished because they can't afford insurance and should be a crime. 

The cost of healthcare prevents people from getting care and if they do, they end up with the absurd debt. 

[KillerGoose]

(10-18-2022, 03:27 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I agree. Medical debt is insane and a disgrace. There is no current solution within reach. Insurance is a scam while politicians and healthcare providers are scammers. One thing that really pisses me off is a person can go to the DR and if he doesn't have insurance, his bill is $300 while if he does, it's discounted from $300 to $100 for the same appointment because the insurance companies have pre-negotiated rates. People should not be punished because they can't afford insurance and should be a crime. 

The cost of healthcare prevents people from getting care and if they do, they end up with the absurd debt. 

Don't even get me started. It really frustrates me. Hell, I broke my finger in half several years ago playing sports. The surgery to fix it was an outpatient procedure and I did have to be put under. $30k in total. I had insurance, but still had to pay $4k. For some people, that would absolutely cripple them. As a matter of fact, one of the guys in the same league as me tore his ACL and didn't have insurance. He was terrified of the cost so...he didn't fix it. He just took some vacation, rested and then went back to work. His knee is all messed up now. I had to go to the ER due to an inadvertent poisoning and just now paid off the debt nearly two years later. Insurance didn't cover it. 

It's just a sham. The wealthiest, most powerful country on the planet shouldn't have citizens spiraling into debt because they are wanting to receive medical care, in my opinion. 

[HarleyDog]

(10-18-2022, 03:38 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Don't even get me started. It really frustrates me. Hell, I broke my finger in half several years ago playing sports. The surgery to fix it was an outpatient procedure and I did have to be put under. $30k in total. I had insurance, but still had to pay $4k. For some people, that would absolutely cripple them. As a matter of fact, one of the guys in the same league as me tore his ACL and didn't have insurance. He was terrified of the cost so...he didn't fix it. He just took some vacation, rested and then went back to work. His knee is all messed up now. I had to go to the ER due to an inadvertent poisoning and just now paid off the debt nearly two years later. Insurance didn't cover it. 

It's just a sham. The wealthiest, most powerful country on the planet shouldn't have citizens spiraling into debt because they are wanting to receive medical care, in my opinion. 

Heart attack - Bypass and valve replacement surgery: $500,000 + and bills still coming in. My medications are high. I have Aetna insurance with, get this, $8250 deductible. Premiums are $123.15 week. I have VA healthcare though as supplemental which means I'm extremely thankful I signed on the dotted line 35yrs ago. To date, All I had to pay for was a few discounted meds and an ambulance ride. Even though I'm fortunate, it still pisses me off. People are already struggling and they shouldn't forgo healthcare to keep out of bankruptcy while insurance companies post billions in profit while playing tug-of-war with the consumers. 

[KillerGoose]

(10-18-2022, 03:55 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Heart attack - Bypass and valve replacement surgery: $500,000 + and bills still coming in. My medications are high. I have Aetna insurance with, get this, $8250 deductible. Premiums are $123.15 week. I have VA healthcare though as supplemental which means I'm extremely thankful I signed on the dotted line 35yrs ago. To date, All I had to pay for was a few discounted meds and an ambulance ride. Even though I'm fortunate, it still pisses me off. People are already struggling and they shouldn't forgo healthcare to keep out of bankruptcy while insurance companies post billions in profit while playing tug-of-war with the consumers. 

Jesus christ, man. That's just pitiful. I'm glad you got the treatment and are doing well, really glad you have the VA supplemental coverage. That Aetna deductible/premium is just a joke. Close to $500 a month for an $8250 deductible. Agree with everything you said. It seems like some sort of healthcare reform will eventually happen, but not quick enough. It becomes a bigger and bigger talking point with each election cycle. I just wish someone would do something. 

[Belsnickel]

(10-18-2022, 12:55 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: I'm so sorry to hear that, Matt; genetics due to... genes (lol) is one thing, but to be sparked by chemical warfare? That makes me feel bad

And yes, with my dad's side (namely my dad's, dad's side), it is RAMPANT. Others of my great aunts, my great grandmother and cousins also ALL had/have it, it's insane.

As for Ozempic, one of the side effects (as I'm sure you're aware, Matt), is that you can get nauseous and feel like crap. My dad switched to it in... March or April? Not sure, but it was right before the spring and while my dad eats well, he doesn't eat frequently and when he doesn't eat frequently, he gets severely nauseous from the meds. Our fishing trips this year have been fraught with bouts of his vomiting and needing to stop what he's doing (which involves crashing into rocks {among other things}, albeit at trolling speed), until the episode passes. He tried to take it less and less (think he did 1 pill a day? My dad is all about lofty goals and ideas, but he never delves into them unless they are successful ), but then he would indulge and then feel like crap 'cause he would be close to having a glycemic episode: it's been a nightmare for him and I don't know if he stopped cold turkey, but he was put back on Tradjenta, starting 2 Fridays ago.

I was thinking of taking the rest of his pills and ingesting them myself, since it has also been prescribed as a weight loss med lol (but I don't **** with drugs unless I'm prescribed them and need them).

So, I've been on Ozempic for a few months now and have been doing well with it, though I can definitely see why some people would have problems. I definitely find my appetite decreased on it but haven't had the other side effects people talk about, fortunately. The hope is, though, that the only meds I will still be taking after my surgery will be the mental health ones because the sleeve gastrectomy should resolve hyperlipidemia and diabetes, my two biggest issues. Well, and my obesity. I've been obese since I was like 5 years old, so I am looking forward to that, as well.