Do You Relate to "Confederate Flag"?

[BmorePat87]

Simple question. I wonder how anyone in 2015 can relate to the "Confederate Flag" (quotes used to stop Matt from reminding us that it's not the actual flag).

Personally, I can't. Despite the fact that people who grew up north of me in MD somehow find that it represents them, at no point have I ever thought that a flag that represented a rebellion against our country primarily over the right to own slaves could relate to me in this day and age.

If you say "yes", why does it?

[fredtoast]

It is part of southern culture. There are many people raised in the south that have seen the flag as a symbol of the south their entire life without it ever having anything to do with slavery and treason.

But theses people can't change the fact that the flag has long been a symbol of white supremacy and has its origins in the fight to maintain slavery. That makes it offensive. The opinion of an individual can not change the truth and reality of what it is.

It is kind of like a child that loves his dad despite the fact that his dad beats his mom. It is possible for a wife beater to love his kids, but that does not excuse the fact that he is a wife beater.

[Johnny Cupcakes]

I don't think that I relate to any flag. Maybe the U.S., Ohio, Cincinnati flags due to being where I'm from? Maybe the Irish flag due to heritage? Certainly not the rebel flag. I neither support racism or am from the south.

[*bfine32*]

I like Lynryd Skynyrd. Does that count?

[SunsetBengal]

Yes, as it is part of the 1st Amendment for every American to have their right to free speech and expression.  To force people to give up something that is part of their heritage, is the same as to announce that the gay community can no longer wave the rainbow banner, as it reminds people of how they look to punish people of the Christian Religion for following their beliefs.  Not that I have a dog in either fight, I just feel that if you're going to ban offensive stuff, ban all of it..

[fredtoast]

(07-07-2015, 10:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I like Lynryd Skynyrd. Does that count?

I'd say that is a big "yes".

[fredtoast]

(07-07-2015, 10:46 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote:  it reminds people of how they look to punish people of the Christian Religion for following their beliefs. 

Gays never punished any Christian for following their beliefs.  If everyone is treated exactly the same then no one is being punished.  

But if you view "equality" as "punishment", then I can definitely see why you love the Rebel flag.

[Devils Advocate]

I'm sure you could find many images of the kkk displaying the battle flag. However, you can find just as many images of them displaying the American flag, maybe even more so. They're a group ( I do not support or condone In any way ) that is proud of America, not just the south.

I can relate with the battle flag but for different reasons than heritage. To sum the civil war up as a war about slavery under values the many aspects besides slavery that led to the conflict. Not to mention, even before recent events, the reason(s) for the war have not been settled by an historian worth ( his ) salt and since its end has been the topic of many-a-debate. It's just not as simple as slavery despite what some want us to believe.

[SunsetBengal]

(07-07-2015, 10:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Gays never punished any Christian for following their beliefs.  If everyone is treated exactly the same then no one is being punished.  

But if you view "equality" as "punishment", then I can definitely see why you love the Rebel flag.

Really?  Then why are people of the Christian Religion being forced to make huge monetary reparations to gays, for not wanting to partake in their marriage ceremonies?  Sure sounds like punishment to me..

And furthermore, they represent a very small portion of the population, so why must the majority bend, not only to accept, but be forced to "embrace" their fringe culture?  Laws protecting them from ostracization, I can understand.  Laws that force people that don't live the same lifestyle to conform to theirs, I don't.

Since you are so learned in the ways of the law, won't you explain it to me?  (and please don't just do that little bit where you pick one little phrase and argue it, look at the post as an entity, for a change )

[SunsetBengal]

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-07-2015, 09:44 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Simple question. I wonder how anyone in 2015 can relate to the "Confederate Flag" (quotes used to stop Matt from reminding us that it's not the actual flag).

Personally, I can't. Despite the fact that people who grew up north of me in MD somehow find that it represents them, at no point have I ever thought that a flag that represented a rebellion against our country primarily over the right to own slaves could relate to me in this day and age.

If you say "yes", why does it?

I don't because i've never been southern enough. That sounds kind of stupid but even though i've grown up in KY, i've grown up in Northern KY. Not nearly the same as some of the counties just a few miles South of me. Sure, there have been plenty of times i've seen it depicted on something, ala The General Lee, and thought it looked cool--plus Dimebag Darrell had a super cool guitar with the CF painted on it--but, to me it's always just been a flag that "rednecks" love to wave around at nascar races. Nothing more than that. Come to think of it, it's not all that dissimilar to Steelers fans and that stupid Terrible Towel.

[fredtoast]

(07-07-2015, 11:00 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Really?  Then why are people of the Christian Religion being forced to make huge monetary reparations to gays, for not wanting to partake in their marriage ceremonies?  Sure sounds like punishment to me..

And furthermore, they represent a very small portion of the population, so why must the majority bend, not only to accept, but be forced to "embrace" their fringe culture?  Laws protecting them from ostracization, I can understand.  Laws that force people that don't live the same lifestyle to conform to theirs, I don't.

Since you are so learned in the ways of the law, won't you explain it to me?  (and please don't just do that little bit where you pick one little phrase and argue it, look at the post as an entity, for a change )

I can explain it very simply.  Christians are being punished for discrimination exactly the same way as Gays would be punished if they discriminated against Christians.  Everyone is treated exactly the same under the law.  That is called "equality".  And "equality" is not "punishment.


There are no laws forcing Christians to become homosexual or forcing straight people to marry people of the same sex.  No one is being forced to do anything except treat everyone equally. 

Why can you not grasp the concept that in the United States we believe in equal rights for all people?  I learned that very early in school, and it has always been a reason I am proud to be an American.  Your suggestion that the majority should have to power to deny equal rights to minorities disgusts me.  You are basically rejecting one of the most basic principles that our country is supposed to stand for.

[fredtoast]

(07-07-2015, 11:07 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote:

We stand for EQUAL RIGHTS.

You can't really be serious with this.

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-07-2015, 11:07 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote:

Yeah. Some news show was on earlier and my wife made a comment to the effect; every time you turn around someone is offended about something new.

[SunsetBengal]

(07-07-2015, 11:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I can explain it very simply.  Christians are being punished for discrimination exactly the same way as Gays would be punished if they discriminated against Christians.  Everyone is treated exactly the same under the law.  That is called "equality".  And "equality" is not "punishment.


There are no laws forcing Christians to become homosexual or forcing straight people to marry people of the same sex.  No one is being forced to do anything except treat everyone equally. 

Why can you not grasp the concept that in the United States we believe in equal rights for all people?  I learned that very early in school, and it has always been a reason I am proud to be an American.  Your suggestion that the majority should have to power to deny equal rights to minorities disgusts me.  You are basically rejecting one of the most basic principles that our country is supposed to stand for.

So, does not "equality" allow those who disagree, disagree without being forced to totally comply to the whims of the other side?  In my view, equality is one thing, forced embracement will only result in resentment.  And, btw, I don't actively practice any particular religion.  I just feel that if equality mean acceptance, that is one thing.  Forcing people to embrace something that they are fundamentally against is persecution.

[fredtoast]

(07-07-2015, 11:31 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: So, does not "equality" allow those who disagree, disagree without being forced to totally comply to the whims of the other side?  In my view, equality is one thing, forced embracement will only result in resentment.  And, btw, I don't actively practice any particular religion.  I just feel that if equality mean acceptance, that is one thing.  Forcing people to embrace something that they are fundamentally against is persecution.

No one is forcing you to "embrace" anything.  All they are saying is that everyone gets treated equally.

Not sure exactly how you are defining "embrace" but it is pretty clear that you have no problem with forcing everyone else to "embrace" your beliefs.

Sorry, but we don't work like that in th United Staes.  Here everyone is treated equally. No one can discriminate against either Christians or non-Christians.  Everyone gets the same protection.  Everyone plays by the same rules.  I don't see how you can't grasp such a simple concept.

[SunsetBengal]

(07-07-2015, 11:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No one is forcing you to "embrace" anything.  All they are saying is that everyone gets treated equally.

Not sure exactly how you are defining "embrace" but it is pretty clear that you have no problem with forcing everyone else to "embrace" your beliefs.

Sorry, but we don't work like that in th United Staes.  Here everyone is treated equally. No one can discriminate against either Christians or non-Christians.  Everyone gets the same protection.  Everyone plays by the same rules.  I don't see how you can't grasp such a simple concept.

Actually, the way I understand, the 1st amendment to the US constitution guarantees an American the right to freely practice their religion.  Does it not?

And by forcing folks to take part in a ceremony that they do not believe in, forcing them to go against their religious beliefs, is forcing them to embrace a fringe culture that they should not.

[Johnny Cupcakes]

(07-07-2015, 10:46 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: is the same as to announce that the gay community can no longer wave the rainbow banner, as it reminds people of how they look to punish people of the Christian Religion for following their beliefs. 

Punished by living in a world where people receive a bit more of the rights that they were unconstitutionally denied for centuries? You consider equality a punishment?  Such a sad religion....

[fredtoast]

(07-07-2015, 11:44 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Actually, the way I understand, the 1st amendment to the US constitution guarantees an American the right to freely practice their religion.  Does it not?

And by forcing folks to take part in a ceremony that they do not believe in, forcing them to go against their religious beliefs, is forcing them to embrace a fringe culture that they should not.

You are free to practice religion any way you want.  No one is going to force any church to do anything.

But when you own a business that provides goods or services you have to treat everyone equally.  Running a business is not "worship".  If you refuse to provide goods or services to a person based on race or religious beliefs then that is discrimination, and discrimination is illegal.

It saddens me that you think "American Freedom" means "No Jews, Muslims, or Gays Allowed"

[StLucieBengal]

(07-07-2015, 09:44 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Simple question. I wonder how anyone in 2015 can relate to the "Confederate Flag" (quotes used to stop Matt from reminding us that it's not the actual flag).

Personally, I can't. Despite the fact that people who grew up north of me in MD somehow find that it represents them, at no point have I ever thought that a flag that represented a rebellion against our country primarily over the right to own slaves could relate to me in this day and age.

If you say "yes", why does it?

I do not ... But I respect the military history it stands for.... There was quite a bit of greatness represented by those confederate armies and their leaders. Lee was an amazing leader who galvanized his troops... Blacks, whites, didn't matter .... He got them all together and quickly.