Do You Relate to "Confederate Flag"?

[BmorePat87]

(07-07-2015, 10:46 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Yes, as it is part of the 1st Amendment for every American to have their right to free speech and expression.  To force people to give up something that is part of their heritage, is the same as to announce that the gay community can no longer wave the rainbow banner, as it reminds people of how they look to punish people of the Christian Religion for following their beliefs.  Not that I have a dog in either fight, I just feel that if you're going to ban offensive stuff, ban all of it..

The question wasn't do you support the right of people to fly the flag. I doubt anyone here supports banning the flag.

Do you personally relate with the flag and if "yes", why?

[BmorePat87]

(07-07-2015, 11:00 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Really?  Then why are people of the Christian Religion being forced to make huge monetary reparations to gays, for not wanting to partake in their marriage ceremonies?  Sure sounds like punishment to me..

Because they're business owners...

Quote:And furthermore, they represent a very small portion of the population, so why must the majority bend, not only to accept, but be forced to "embrace" their fringe culture?  Laws protecting them from ostracization, I can understand.  Laws that force people that don't live the same lifestyle to conform to theirs, I don't.

No law forces anyone to conform to their lifestyle.

[BmorePat87]

(07-07-2015, 10:59 PM)Devils Advocate Wrote: I'm sure you could find many images of the kkk displaying the battle flag. However, you can find just as many images of them displaying the American flag, maybe even more so. They're a group ( I do not support or condone In any way ) that is proud of America, not just the south.

I can relate with the battle flag but for different reasons than heritage. To sum the civil war up as a war about slavery under values the many aspects besides slavery that led to the conflict. Not to mention, even before recent events, the reason(s) for the war have not been settled by an historian worth ( his ) salt and since its end has been the topic of many-a-debate. It's just not as simple as slavery despite what some want us to believe.

The problem with trying to argue "states' rights" is that it's a state's right to abolish federal laws that restricted slavery in some form or a territory's right to have slavery. The problem with trying to argue and "economic factors" is that it was an argument over how the South's economy would not survive without slavery.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/07/01/why-do-people-believe-myths-about-the-confederacy-because-our-textbooks-and-monuments-are-wrong/

Reality of the Civil War has been completely distorted by Southern sympathizers. You have states that overwhelmingly supported the Union littered with Confederate monuments and only have a handful of Union ones. Textbooks openly lie about reasons for secession, even when the declarations themselves stated that slavery was the primary reason.

[Belsnickel]

I don't. I may have been born in Pennsylvania, but I have resided in Virginia for all but the first year of my life so I am a Virginian and also a southerner. It's interesting, because I was born in a very backwoods, racist area of PA, and I currently live in a city that is in what most Virginians consider to be a very backwoods, racist part of Virginia. We're not quite into SWVA territory, but we're as close as you'll get. Even with all of that, I have never identified with the Southern Cross.

Growing up here you hear more about the Civil War than I'd bet anywhere else. The Shenandoah Valley was the breadbasket of the South and so was a constant quagmire of violence. You can't throw a rock without hitting a monument or a marker to recognize a battle being fought or a soldier falling. Virginia had more battles than any other state and because the Valley didn't play much of a role in the French and Indian War and the Revolutionary War, the Civil War is the history we pay much more attention to here. I'm a lover of history and so have absorbed all of it. I love going to the museums and battlefields, I've considered reenacting even. People here fly, wave, display, and wear the Southern Cross without irony or a hint of racism (not to say there aren't racists here, far from it) and do it because of the history and heritage. Even with all of that, I have never had a connection to the flag, or any flag of the CSA.

Give me the flag of Virginia any day of the week. Tyranny laid to waste by Virtus, symbols of our freedom from Britain's restriction as well as monarchical rule. That's a flag I can stand behind, under, or carry with pride.

But I also just don't like the color red.

[BmorePat87]

Going along with this theme, it is time for Maryland to replace their state song. A song that was written to promote the Confederacy in no way represents Maryland. I'm not sure how I can relate to a song that, despite the references to Maryland's pre Civil War history, argues that the North is scum and Maryland must come to Virginia's aid against the despot Lincoln.

[GMDino]

(07-08-2015, 09:21 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: But I also just don't like the color red.

[Rotobeast]

I don't have any affiliation with the "rebel" flag, apart from the Dukes of Hazzard.


I don't have a problem with not flying it on government property and such.
I would have a problem if they tried to ban it, all together.

FWIW... I'm pretty much a libtard.

[Belsnickel]

(07-08-2015, 09:49 AM)GMDino Wrote:

Too much of it brings on the battle rage and I find myself yelling to form the shield wall.

I may have been reading too many books on the history of the Germanic people of northern and western Europe as of late as well as historical fiction aimed at them during the middle ages.

[masonbengals fan]

(07-07-2015, 09:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is part of southern culture.  There are many people raised in the south that have seen the flag as a symbol of the south their entire life without it ever having anything to do with slavery and treason.

But theses people can't change the fact that the flag has long been a symbol of white supremacy and has its origins in the fight to maintain slavery.  That makes it offensive.  The opinion of an individual can not change the truth and reality of what it is.

It is kind of like a child that loves his dad despite the fact that his dad beats his mom.  It is possible for a wife beater to love his kids, but that does not excuse the fact that he is a wife beater.

You can lump me with the 1st paragraph. I've always saw it as a symbol of the south without the slavery/treason part.

And I love Lynrd Skynyrd too.

Does that make me a racist?

[Vas Deferens]

(07-07-2015, 10:46 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Yes, as it is part of the 1st Amendment for every American to have their right to free speech and expression.  To force people to give up something that is part of their heritage, is the same as to announce that the gay community can no longer wave the rainbow banner, as it reminds people of how they look to punish people of the Christian Religion for following their beliefs.  Not that I have a dog in either fight, I just feel that if you're going to ban offensive stuff, ban all of it..

Ahh, the proud heritage of blind discrimination through ignorance.  Such a proud, albeit mentally limited people.

(07-07-2015, 11:00 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Really?  Then why are people of the Christian Religion being forced to make huge monetary reparations to gays, for not wanting to partake in their marriage ceremonies?  Sure sounds like punishment to me..

And furthermore, they represent a very small portion of the population, so why must the majority bend, not only to accept, but be forced to "embrace" their fringe culture?  Laws protecting them from ostracization, I can understand.  Laws that force people that don't live the same lifestyle to conform to theirs, I don't.

Since you are so learned in the ways of the law, won't you explain it to me?  (and please don't just do that little bit where you pick one little phrase and argue it, look at the post as an entity, for a change )

Don't worry sweetie, you're going to look swell in your federally mandated tutu.  

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

So, I totally get the reason black folks find the flag offensive. I get it, and further discussion with friends of mine who happen to be black just allows me to get it even more. I was never a big rebel flag waver, but I had a few things here and there over the years with it on it....never giving it two thoughts. As I grew, I learned.....I don't have those things anymore.

That said, if TVLand is gonna pull The Dukes of Hazzard off the air because of the rebel flag on the roof of the car, I fully expect them to remove The Cosby Show, and all stations should pull Fat Albert or any other thing Cosby ever did in support of women's advocacy groups. After all, right is right....


To answer the OP.....yes, at one time, I kinda related to it. A kind of "me against the world" thing.....rebelling against whatever was the flavor of the day, if you will. After I learned to look through others' eyes some, I began to understand why folks took offense. It shouldn't fly over any taxpayer funded buildings, anything else is fair game.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-08-2015, 09:11 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The problem with trying to argue "states' rights" is that it's a state's right to abolish federal laws that restricted slavery in some form or a territory's right to have slavery. The problem with trying to argue and "economic factors" is that it was an argument over how the South's economy would not survive without slavery.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/07/01/why-do-people-believe-myths-about-the-confederacy-because-our-textbooks-and-monuments-are-wrong/

Reality of the Civil War has been completely distorted by Southern sympathizers. You have states that overwhelmingly supported the Union littered with Confederate monuments and only have a handful of Union ones. Textbooks openly lie about reasons for secession, even when the declarations themselves stated that slavery was the primary reason.

True, but don't forget how the Northern textile industry couldn't survive without control of the cotton.  England was handing them their hat with cheap Southern cotton before the "tariff".  There is inaccuracies from both sides.....


......as David Byrne would say....."Same as it ever was".....i.e., follow the money.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-08-2015, 04:22 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: Ahh, the proud heritage of blind discrimination through ignorance.  Such a proud, albeit mentally limited people.

Nothing like attacking prejudice and intolerance with your own prejudice and intolerance........ :snark:

[6andcounting]

(07-07-2015, 09:44 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Simple question. I wonder how anyone in 2015 can relate to the "Confederate Flag" (quotes used to stop Matt from reminding us that it's not the actual flag).

Personally, I can't. Despite the fact that people who grew up north of me in MD somehow find that it represents them, at no point have I ever thought that a flag that represented a rebellion against our country primarily over the right to own slaves could relate to me in this day and age.

If you say "yes", why does it?

I'm pretty sure a Ravens fan can relate to owning an ugly piece of cloth that people associate with wife beating, drunkenness and room temperature IQ.

[BmorePat87]

(07-08-2015, 05:23 PM)Wyche Wrote: True, but don't forget how the Northern textile industry couldn't survive without control of the cotton.  England was handing them their hat with cheap Southern cotton before the "tariff".  There is inaccuracies from both sides.....

Cotton that was picked by slaves. While the North was developing industry, the South invested in slavery. 2/3 of the wealth of slave owners was tied to their slaves. They made their choice to double down on agriculture and slavery in the decades prior to the war while the North invested in manufacturing.

And while the South did not like protective tariffs that benefited the North, it was still not nearly as critical of an issue as maintaining the institution of slavery itself.

[Mike M (the other one)]

I personally don't associate the flag with slavery, I guess it's based purely upon your view point.

But if we are going to go that direction, then there's a ton more that need to come down. Arkansas, Mississippi, Maryland and Florida all have the "X" in them, same as the Confederate flag. Not to mention how bad some of the state flags can easily represent something else.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(07-08-2015, 05:37 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Cotton that was picked by slaves. While the North was developing industry, the South invested in slavery. 2/3 of the wealth of slave owners was tied to their slaves. They made their choice to double down on agriculture and slavery in the decades prior to the war while the North invested in manufacturing.

And while the South did not like protective tariffs that benefited the North, it was still not nearly as critical of an issue as maintaining the institution of slavery itself.

Oh I agree, and said as much.....but it still doesn't change the fact the Northern industrialists were getting their incompetent asses kicked by the Brits' mighty industrial base in the textile game.  The Northern factories had to rely on cheap cotton from the South.....it was cheap to England too, before the tariff.  

Look, I agree, the South was TOTALLY wrong, I just don't buy that "pie in the sky" shit the winners try to have us all believe either.  If the North could've profited from cotton picked by slaves without the tariff, they would've.  To me, the human rights issue was a ploy to garner public support against an unpopular war.  Let us not forget, they sure as shit weren't rushing to the aid of immigrants and children living five families deep to a one room flat in New York ghettos during the Industrial Revolution with workers' rights and child labor laws......or in Appalachia during the coal booms.  It took unions and bloodshed to do that.  Where was the precious Union government then? In the hip pockets of the Industrialists, that's where......

[Devils Advocate]

(07-08-2015, 09:11 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: The problem with trying to argue "states' rights" is that it's a state's right to abolish federal laws that restricted slavery in some form or a territory's right to have slavery. The problem with trying to argue and "economic factors" is that it was an argument over how the South's economy would not survive without slavery.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/07/01/why-do-people-believe-myths-about-the-confederacy-because-our-textbooks-and-monuments-are-wrong/

Reality of the Civil War has been completely distorted by Southern sympathizers. You have states that overwhelmingly supported the Union littered with Confederate monuments and only have a handful of Union ones. Textbooks openly lie about reasons for secession, even when the declarations themselves stated that slavery was the primary reason.

Nah. If you wanna sum up the war in one line, it was about the federal govt flexing its might. If it were solely about slavery, Then that practice woulda been over in the North. But it wasn't. 






[/quote]

[*jason*]

(07-07-2015, 11:18 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Yeah. Some news show was on earlier and my wife made a comment to the effect; every time you turn around someone is offended about something new.

I'm not sure that flag offends anybody.  It's just a cloth that either A.  Represents slavery and white supremacy or  B. An antiquated, aristocratic society that that didn't have the foresight to realize that their way of life was about to be snuffed out by the Industrial Revolution.  I am not in favor of A or B, so I think that the US flag should be the only flag flying on the grounds of government buildings. If South Carolina wants it there bad enough, they should adopt it as their state flag... And let the vast majority of the country look down upon them.

I have heard for years that the Civil War was about more than slavery, but I never hear what else it was fought for.  Now and a again I hear some lame states' rights argument, but it seems to have been about states' rights to allow slavery within their borders.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

It's the flag of a bunch of traitors determined to destroy the United States. That being said I don't care if anyone wants to personally own/fly it. It shouldn't be flown on government property though. I love the "heritage" argument though. The Nazi flag is part of Germany's "heritage", not really an appropriate reason for it being flown from government buildings. Note I am not (quite) equating the confederacy to nazi Germany, but the point remains.