Do we live in a Rape Culture?

[GMDino]

(05-05-2016, 11:48 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Obviously, there are times it's obvious: a chick gets passed out drunk and some sleazeball takes advantage, but I gotta think in most instances, both parties are pretty buzzed and probably not even sober enough to drive. How do we tell then? Do we automatically assume the guy raped the girl? What if it's 2 girls? What if the "guy" is really transgendered? So many questions!

This why there are investigations and trials.

[*PhilHos*]

(05-05-2016, 11:51 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: So here's why I think that they continue to lay blame on the male in those situations. Mean are perceived as being stronger, and therefore more capable of controlling the situation. They are also perceived as being able to handle intoxicating substances better, and so often aren't seen to be "as drunk" as the girl. It then also involves the perception that men are much more willing to lay pipe with anything that moves (or doesn't as the case may be).

Here is the problem with that thinking, it is actually patriarchal. Actual feminism, fighting for equality between the sexes, is against this line of thinking because it puts the male and female on different levels. Now, how do we fix this? The sad truth is that to look at it in a way of "they were both drunk" or "which one was more drunk" is difficult because you often have no reliable evidence in the situation to point to that. You do end up with these incidents being shoved aside (which happens already) and I have seen people receive no punishment for what very well may have been a rape because of it. It's difficult to handle these sorts of things, but there is no perfect solution.

No, there may not be a perfect solution, but it's not a good solution to automatically assume the guy is a rapist. That's actually DAMAGING to gender equality. So any supposed "feminist" or person in favor of quality should NOT be in favor of assuming the guy raped the drunk girl unless there's actual evidence to support the claim.

[*PhilHos*]

(05-05-2016, 12:00 PM)GMDino Wrote: This why there are investigations and trials.

Not within the  media, there aren't, usually. And when there are, they're not exactly unbiased and objective.

[GMDino]

(05-05-2016, 12:03 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Not within the  media, there aren't, usually. And when there are, they're not exactly unbiased and objective.

The media is not the legal system.

[GMDino]

(05-05-2016, 12:01 PM)PhilHos Wrote: No, there may not be a perfect solution, but it's not a good solution to automatically assume the guy is a rapist. That's actually DAMAGING to gender equality. So any supposed "feminist" or person in favor of quality should NOT be in favor of assuming the guy raped the drunk girl unless there's actual evidence to support the claim.

Agreed.  Hold both accountable.

That is different from saying she might have consented or he was too drunk to know if she consented or vice versa.

[Belsnickel]

(05-05-2016, 12:01 PM)PhilHos Wrote: No, there may not be a perfect solution, but it's not a good solution to automatically assume the guy is a rapist. That's actually DAMAGING to gender equality. So any supposed "feminist" or person in favor of quality should NOT be in favor of assuming the guy raped the drunk girl unless there's actual evidence to support the claim.

Did you miss the part where I said exactly that?

[*PhilHos*]

(05-05-2016, 12:08 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Did you miss the part where I said exactly that?

Did you think I was disagreeing with you or something?

[fredtoast]

(05-05-2016, 11:40 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Here's my problem with the too-drunk-to-consent issue, usually both individuals are drunk. So how do we know that one is too drunk to consent and the other is sober enough to know this? 

(05-05-2016, 11:44 AM)Rotobeast Wrote: Precisely !
If drunkenness is admitted as an excuse for one, it should be also for the other.
(barring obvious trauma from being forced or sober witnesses)

The thing is that it DOES take more than just a claim of being too drunk to consent to get a rape conviction.  I don't think it is as easy as you guys think.

As for both parties being too drunk to consent that would be almost impossible to prove, but you can't claim that you were too drunk to commit a rape when you have sex with a woman who does not consent.  Just like you can not claim you were too drunk to get a DUI because you were too drunk to know you were driving.

[fredtoast]

(05-05-2016, 12:03 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Not within the  media, there aren't, usually. And when there are, they're not exactly unbiased and objective.

From what I see the media just reports allegations.  i don't remember any media claiming a person was a rapist before a conviction unless it is some op-ed piece.

The problem is that the general population sometimes treats "charges" the same ad "convictions".

[Belsnickel]

(05-05-2016, 12:19 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Did you think I was disagreeing with you or something?

I'm bad at interpreting tone in person, so on a message board it becomes even more difficult. The language and capitalization used made it seem to me like you thought that was not my position.

[fredtoast]

(05-05-2016, 12:01 PM)PhilHos Wrote: No, there may not be a perfect solution, but it's not a good solution to automatically assume the guy is a rapist. That's actually DAMAGING to gender equality. So any supposed "feminist" or person in favor of quality should NOT be in favor of assuming the guy raped the drunk girl unless there's actual evidence to support the claim.

I am not aware of any cases where a guy claimed he was too drunk to consent to sex and a woman raped him.  There may be one out there somewhere, but if so it is very, very, very rare.

Everyone knows that the woman is generally the one who decides if there will be sex.  Men have a default setting of "YES".  I know this is not the case 100% of the time, but it is generally true.  And this is proven by the fact that rape charges against women by men are so rare.

[NATI BENGALS]

No, if you want to see a rape culture look at India.

We dont have many gang rapes in public places. The last one i heard of was the one in the park, in new york i think it was, and everybody walked.

I dont think you can call us a rape culture when compared to the rest of the world.

[BmorePat87]

We put more emphasis on telling girls what to do to not get raped than we do on telling boys why they should not rape and that women do not owe them sex. Is it as bad as some places? No, but that doesn't mean we don't have issues.

[Benton]

(05-05-2016, 11:01 AM)Rotobeast Wrote: I don't support rape by any means, but why is drunkenness always allowed as an excused impairment for the female but not the male ?

I can see the reasoning from back in the day when females were the meek little flowers and all, but today they're just as sexually aggressive as men.

If they're both intoxicated, what makes the man held any more accountable ?

Probably the same double standards that keep them out of selective service, for now.

Because he's doing the act. Being drunk doesn't excuse the act.

'I didn't mean to rob that bank, I'd had a couple drinks over lunch, one thing led to another and the next thing I know I'm shouting 'Put all the money in the bag!"'

Just because you're drunk, too doesn't mean it's ok to have sex with someone incapacitated any more than it's ok to rob a bank or sell meth.

The other side is true, too. If a guy is drunk and a chick takes advantage, that's rape. Women, normally, don't have to incapacitate a guy, though. For them, all they need to do is say "Hi."

[*bfine32*]

(05-05-2016, 12:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am not aware of any cases where a guy claimed he was too drunk to consent to sex and a woman raped him.  There may be one out there somewhere, but if so it is very, very, very rare.

Everyone knows that the woman is generally the one who decides if there will be sex.  Men have a default setting of "YES".  I know this is not the case 100% of the time, but it is generally true.  And this is proven by the fact that rape charges against women by men are so rare.

Are you saying men and women are different?

What if a transmale had drunken sex with a transwoman? Which one would be given the benefit of not consenting? 

[Bengalzona]

Personally, I never cared much for rap music. But if people who like it want to start their own culture, that's okay I guess.

[fredtoast]

(05-05-2016, 04:56 PM)bfine32 Wrote: What if a transmale had drunken sex with a transwoman? Which one would be given the benefit of not consenting? 

I never said a man could not claim he was raped.  I never said either should be "given the benefit" of not consenting.

All I did was explain why we almost never hear about a man claiming to be too drunk to consent to sex with a woman.  Have you ever heard of a case like that?

[*bfine32*]

(05-05-2016, 06:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I never said a man could not claim he was raped.  I never said either should be "given the benefit" of not consenting.

All I did was explain why we almost never hear about a man claiming to be too drunk to consent to sex with a woman.  Have you ever heard of a case like that?

Two questions asked, Zero answers provided just an ambiguous statement, but one new question asked.

I've seen this script before somewhere. 

I too agree that no one should be given the benefit of the doubt; however, if you are being honest you know that one side is.

[fredtoast]

(05-05-2016, 06:10 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Two questions asked, Zero answers provided just an ambiguous statement, but one new question asked.

I answered your question so clearly that you actually agreed with my answer

(05-05-2016, 06:10 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I too agree that no one should be given the benefit of the doubt;

So WTF are you talking about me not answering your question?

[fredtoast]

(05-05-2016, 06:10 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I too agree that no one should be given the benefit of the doubt; however, if you are being honest you know that one side is.

Actually I am being 100% honest when I say i have never heard of a man claiming he was to drunk to consent to sex with a woman and then claimed he was raped.  that is why I was asking if you knew any examples of this happening.

Since you now insist that you 100% know that the man could not win a case like this provide me with the basis for that opinion.  I honestly have never heard of it happening.