Do you believe; and why?

[fredtoast]

(05-13-2019, 01:21 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Once again you're pointing to the affect and not the act. She knew it was wrong, but the serpent lied to her about the affect, so she defied God. 

No she did not know it was wrong.   

She was given two choices and took the one she thought was correct.  The tree looked good.  The fruit looked good.  The serpant told her it was fine.  She just thought God was wrong and the serpent was right.

Why the hell would she have eaten it if she thought she would die?

[*bfine32*]

(05-13-2019, 01:31 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: So what knowledge did they obtain when the ate the forbidden fruit?

Most translations states "They became wise". God wanted them to be obedient, but they wanted more than what God gave them, so they took wisdom. So God made them pay by clothing them and making them fend for themselves instead of everything being given to them.  

[*bfine32*]

(05-13-2019, 01:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No she did not know it was wrong.  If she thought it was wrong then she would not have eaten it.  

She was given two choices and took the one she thought was correct.  The tree looked good.  The fruit looked good.  the serpant told her it was fine.  She just thought God was wrong and the serpent was right.

We'll just disagree on the assumption that she knew it was wrong to eat the fruit, she even told the serpent it was. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-13-2019, 01:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Most translations states "They became wise". God wanted them to be obedient, but they wanted more than what God gave them, so they took wisdom. So God made them pay by clothing them and making them fend for themselves instead of everything being given to them.  

Wisdom of what?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-13-2019, 01:42 PM)bfine32 Wrote: We'll just disagree on the assumption that she knew it was wrong to eat the fruit, she even told the serpent it was. 

Eve doesn't tell the serpent it is wrong in the KJV.

[*bfine32*]

(05-13-2019, 01:54 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Eve doesn't tell the serpent it is wrong in the KJV.

My turn to ask a question: If she did not know right from wrong, what purpose did the serpent have to tell Eve God was wrong. 

[Matt_Crimson]

(05-13-2019, 12:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually Adam and Eve did NOT KNOW the consequences of eating the fruit because if they did they would never have eaten it.
 
The real decision was not to eat the fruit or not.  It was to believe God or the serpent.

Why did Adam and Eve chose to believe the serpent over God?  Because they did not know the difference between good and evil.

Except people know the consequences of their actions all the time and still do those actions. Ever heard of someone murdering another person and going to prison for it? Did they not know?

(05-13-2019, 12:40 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Is dying good or bad?  Is becoming like God good or bad?

God, the highest authority, told them what not to do. How would doing it be good?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-13-2019, 01:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: My turn to ask a question: If she did not know right from wrong, what purpose did the serpent have to tell Eve God was wrong. 

Wrong as in evil?  Wrong as incorrect?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+3&version=KJV

Quote:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

9 And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

13 And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

The serpent didn't tell Eve that God was wrong or evil; he just told her what God knew.  Eve hadn't yet eaten from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil to gain the wisdom of what is good and evil (or right or wrong). So how could Eve understand the serpent was lying in order to deceive her and that lying and deception are wrong or bad or evil; if she didn't understand the concept because she hadn't eaten from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?  Quite simply, she couldn't.

This is nothing more than a plot error by the author and an editorial oversight.  A mistake.  Another contradiction in a book filled with contradictions and we aren't even out of book 3 of Genesis.

Not only does God punish Adam and Eve for doing what he knew they would do, but he also punished the serpent for doing for doing what you claimed God allowed him to do.  Not only did God allow it, he created the serpent with with that intent in mind.

(05-08-2019, 09:48 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yes he did create the scenario and I've never suggested he didn't want them to be curious; he wanted them to be obedient. He couldn't do that without a temptation. Not only did he tempt them by putting the tree there and saying "off limits" he further tempted them by allowing the serpent to coerce them. 

As to folks learning: Folks used to say the earth was flat but the bible always referred to it as round. 

Why would God punish the serpent for doing exactly what God wanted and created the serpent to do as part of His plan?

Because it is another plot error.  It's a mistake in a book full of mistakes which many people preach doesn't contain a even single mistake. It's that type of thinking which is why the Catholic Church STILL won't admit burning Giordano Bruno at the stake in 1600 for believing something was a mistake.  Because burning someone to death for believing something is not wrong . . . at least according to the Church.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-13-2019, 02:06 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Except people know the consequences of their actions all the time and still do those actions. Ever heard of someone murdering another person and going to prison for it? Did they not know?

Yeah, because Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. If not, you would be walking around naked oblivious to your own nakedness.

Quote:God, the highest authority, told them what not to do. How would doing it be good?

How would they know if it was good (or not) if they hadn't eaten from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil to know what good even was as a concept? They wouldn't know.

[GMDino]

Why did god have to create a test for his perfect creations?

Why does god demand total loyalty from creatures he created in the first place?

It's almost like its a story to explain temptation to do bad things and the consequences of it that got blown into everyone being born a sinner and "needing" the church to "cleanse" them or they'd burn for eternity.

[Matt_Crimson]

(05-13-2019, 04:00 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Yeah, because Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.  If not, you would be walking around naked oblivious to your own nakedness.




How would they know if it was good (or not) if they hadn't eaten from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil to know what good even was as a concept?  They wouldn't know.

Why was the Tree of Life called the Tree of Life if they were already living?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-13-2019, 04:01 PM)GMDino Wrote: Why did god have to create a test for his perfect creations?

Why does god demand total loyalty from creatures he created in the first place?

It's almost like its a story to explain temptation to do bad things and the consequences of it that got blown into everyone being born a sinner and "needing" the church to "cleanse" them or they'd burn for eternity.

God: "Here's free will."

Adam: "What's free will?"

God: "You can do anything you choose to do."

Adam: "Can I eat this?"

God: "No."

Adam: "But, you said I can do whatever I choose."

God: "I know what I said."

Adam: "Then why can't I eat this?"

God: "Because I said so, that's why. Look, you have free will as long as you do what I say because I really want you to obey and ignore that crap I said about free will. And don't let me catch you using it. 'Cause if I do there will be hell to pay. You can do anything you want as as long as what you want to do is what I tell you to do. Capice?"

Serpent: "Hold my beer."

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-13-2019, 04:28 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Why was the Tree of Life called the Tree of Life if they were already living?

Read what Genesis 3:22 says.

[Matt_Crimson]

(05-13-2019, 04:52 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Read what Genesis 3:22 says.

I know what it says. I'm asking you what that means. Does it mean the Tree of Life actually gave them life?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(05-13-2019, 04:56 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: I know what it says. I'm asking you what that means. Does it mean the Tree of Life actually gave them life?

It says if they ate from the Tree of Life they would live forever.

[*bfine32*]

(05-13-2019, 03:54 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Wrong as in evil?  Wrong as incorrect?

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+3&version=KJV


The serpent didn't tell Eve that God was wrong or evil; he just told her what God knew.  Eve hadn't yet eaten from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil to gain the wisdom of what is good and evil (or right or wrong). So how could Eve understand the serpent was lying in order to deceive her and that lying and deception are wrong or bad or evil; if she didn't understand the concept because she hadn't eaten from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?  Quite simply, she couldn't.

This is nothing more than a plot error by the author and an editorial oversight.  A mistake.  Another contradiction in a book filled with contradictions and we aren't even out of book 3 of Genesis.

Not only does God punish Adam and Eve for doing what he knew they would do, but he also punished the serpent for doing for doing what you claimed God allowed him to do.  Not only did God allow it, he created the serpent with with that intent in mind.


Why would God punish the serpent for doing exactly what God wanted and created the serpent to do as part of His plan?

Because it is another plot error.  It's a mistake in a book full of mistakes which many people preach doesn't contain a even single mistake. It's that type of thinking which is why the Catholic Church STILL won't admit burning Giordano Bruno at the stake in 1600 for believing something was a mistake.  Because burning someone to death for believing something is not wrong . . . at least according to the Church.

Eve told the serpent that God said if she ate from the tree she would die, but the serpent told Eve if she ate from the tree she wouldn't die, but the serpent did not tell Eve God was wrong. Did I get your stance right?

[Nebuchadnezzar]

It wasn't about Adam and Eve gaining the Knowledge of Good and Evil or to know what God knows. Adams and Eves sin was disobedience because God told them they could eat from any tree in the Garden except that one. Once they sinned, they had to be removed from the garden, from Paradise.

What no one is talking about though is how Adam throws Eve under the bus and blames her for the sin committed, lol. Dude just straight up said "It was this woman" as soon as they were found out when both were there and both ate.

EDIT: By the way, this is called the "Original Sin" but their disobedience was rooted in Pride.

[Lucidus]

(05-13-2019, 12:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And that is just vague philosophical mumbo jumbo.

I do not believe.  My mother is devoutly religious.  It would crush her and she would suffer the rest of her life if I told her I did not believe.  So I would be a total asshole to tell her the truth.  It changes absolutely nothing.  All it would do is make her miserable.


 

The fact that you do not believe is a truth.
The fact that your mother is devoutly religious is a truth.
The fact that your non-belief would hurt your mother is a truth.

All these "truths" must have value, in and of themselves. If all these truths lacked value individually, they could not inform your decision collectively, as it would be rather counterproductive to rely upon information of no value to formulate your thinking process.

[Lucidus]

In reading through the last couple pages of this thread -- with all the discussion of good and evil -- I am left wanting re-visit a question that I have asked many religious people over the years, only to be left with the most unsatisfying answers:

For those that believe, how is it that you came to determine -- on what basis and to what degree of certainty -- that God is necessarily good [moral] and Satan is necessarily evil [immoral]?

[*bfine32*]

(05-13-2019, 09:41 PM)Lucidus Wrote: In reading through the last couple pages of this thread -- with all the discussion of good and evil -- I am left wanting re-visit a question that I have asked many religious people over the years, only to be left with the most unsatisfying answers:

For those that believe, how is it that you came to determine -- on what basis and to what degree of certainty -- that God is necessarily good [moral] and Satan is necessarily evil [immoral]?

I can only assume that those you asked found the question just as unsatisfying as you did their answers. Why no ask why God is good and Martha Stewart is bad? Because the simple answer is: One is the creator and one is the creation; they are not to be compared.