Does Bernie Know Dems Need A Miracle?

[BFritz21]

With all of Trump's accomplishments and the dumpster fire that is the group of Democratic candidates, in the debate, Bernie said "we need the biggest turnout in history in this election."

Did he just say that so people that have no clue about the current status of the country and wouldn't vote otherwise will come out and vote against Trump based on emotion without any real understanding of the way things are? Is he hoping they'll hear his vision of socialism (remind me to buy a gun if he gets elected [before he bans them]) and just come out and blindly vote for him because they think the country will be a paradise?

The Democrats are collapsing, so is he just hoping that people see Trump as some rich prick that they can't identify with and that they'll all buy into his promises?

[HarleyDog]

(02-21-2020, 11:47 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: With all of Trump's accomplishments and the dumpster fire that is the group of Democratic candidates, in the debate, Bernie said "we need the biggest turnout in history in this election."

Did he just say that so people that have no clue about the current status of the country and wouldn't vote otherwise will come out and vote against Trump based on emotion without any real understanding of the way things are?  Is he hoping they'll hear his vision of socialism (remind me to buy a gun if he gets elected [before he bans them]) and just come out and blindly vote for him because they think the country will be a paradise?

The Democrats are collapsing, so is he just hoping that people see Trump as some rich prick that they can't identify with and that they'll all buy into his promises?

In all fairness, I think all politicians are screaming for a good turnout. Hopefully people get out and vote. Socialism and Communism are kinda different. What Bernie wants to do is let the government control healthcare and tax the crap out of everyone, specially the rich. Eliminating the competition for healthcare could drive down costs of treatment and drugs. Although there may be very little few in their youth who have no clue that think things would be a paradise? I doubt it's relevant, but every vote does count.

I watched the democratic debate and it was pretty sad how they were attacking each other. But, when I look back at 4yrs ago, I pretty much seen the same with the Republicans and Democrats alike. Debates in the political arena are vicious and similar to an ugly girl mowing over all her friends to get the bouquet at a wedding in hopes to achieve her dream. It just seems more ridiculous this time around because republicans aren't doing it. 

The dems seem to be collapsing, but keep an eye on the house and it's media. They are the trojan horse in this election. If you've noticed, we are all the sudden regurgitating Russian election interference. Did you notice that the Bernie campaign was actually suspect as well? The dems don't like Bernie, and they don't like El Trumpo. Watch this unfold because that's going to be their plan with the media and click bait material. If Bloomberg gains much more ground, your going to see the same about him as well. Many dems view him as republican in dem clothing. 

If Trump loses, it will be because he can't stop tweeting. His ego is too large and he has little self discipline. He reminds me of a boss one time I just couldn't work for, but his results were gold! Make no mistake, Trump wants to MAGA, but he's similar to an abusive leader on steroids.

[Benton]

Trump's accomplishments mostly include decreasing the job growth we had at the end of the Obama admin, reducing access to healthcare for thousands, borrowing money to build a border wall that literally can't withstand wind, getting impeached trying to prove that a- Hunter Biden is corrupt and b- Russia didn't interfere in his election, losing the popular vote, increasing my taxes by getting rid of some small business exemptions, ostracizing long standing allies in favor of Russia, expanding socialism by way of subsidizing segments of the population his policies have hurt, serving as commander in chief at a time with record enlisted suicides and throwing more money at wars he couldn't win.



Seriously, he's done a few good things, but hanging his reelection on his accomplishments is absurd. His reelection hinges more on what won it for him the first time: making people believe he will make their life better (which he's largely failed at) and having democrats putting up a weak candidate.

Personally, I think trump will do pretty well but it depends on his ability to hold onto those ec states. A halfway decent candidate could flip a flyover state or two, maybe even Ohio.

As far as socialism, I wish people would stop. It's beyond silly. We have socialism. We've had socialism for over a century. And anyone on Medicare/Medicare, drawing social security, going to their library, visiting a public park, accepting a government subsidy (businesses that is) and dozens of other things are taking part in socialism.

Healthcare reform is not dealing socialism, not in the way the gop paints it anyway. There's no "free" anything, it's all paid for by taxes. Or it's pure capitalism where it's all paid for by consumer (the direction the gop is trying to take it).

So you've got two options on all things, but we'll use healthcare as an example.

Option A- go all in on capitalism. And when someone has a heart attack and can't afford the $10,000 emergency room bill or $80,000 heart cath.... They die. Capitalism doesn't care.

Option b- tell lawmakers how you want your tax money spent, which, if it's affordable healthcare, there's goverent options like coops, drug price negotiations, service price controls, etc.

Option a is what the gop is advocating and mostly why we have the prices we have now. Option b is what they call socialized medicine: any attempt to regulate the industry.

[jj22]

Trumps "accomplishments" Lol.

[Arturo Bandini]

(02-24-2020, 06:00 PM)jj22 Wrote: Trumps "accomplishments" Lol.

Dude bought the whole Wallmart s**t leaving the mall saying my kids will pay and some people are freaked about it.

Anybody can do that.

The debt of this country is just abysmal but people don't care because they think they won't pay and bankers are laughing all their way to their office.

[BmorePat87]

(02-22-2020, 12:41 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: The dems seem to be collapsing, but keep an eye on the house and it's media. They are the trojan horse in this election. If you've noticed, we are all the sudden regurgitating Russian election interference. Did you notice that the Bernie campaign was actually suspect as well? The dems don't like Bernie, and they don't like El Trumpo. Watch this unfold because that's going to be their plan with the media and click bait material. If Bloomberg gains much more ground, your going to see the same about him as well. Many dems view him as republican in dem clothing. 

Russian interference is an agreed upon fact within the US intelligence community and they have been warning us for 4 years that it never ended. We knew 4 years ago that, in addition to promoting Trump, they sought to promote Bernie Sanders too, so none of this is new. 

Both are outsider, burn it all down candidates. 

[CJD]

(02-21-2020, 11:47 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: With all of Trump's accomplishments and the dumpster fire that is the group of Democratic candidates, in the debate, Bernie said "we need the biggest turnout in history in this election."

Did he just say that so people that have no clue about the current status of the country and wouldn't vote otherwise will come out and vote against Trump based on emotion without any real understanding of the way things are?  Is he hoping they'll hear his vision of socialism (remind me to buy a gun if he gets elected [before he bans them]) and just come out and blindly vote for him because they think the country will be a paradise?

The Democrats are collapsing, so is he just hoping that people see Trump as some rich prick that they can't identify with and that they'll all buy into his promises?

The majority of Trump's 'accomplishments' are seen as a blight on the country by many Americans. I often have to google "What are Trump's Accomplishments?" because I can't, for the life of me, remember any of them. All I remember are the constant scandals, the lying, the gas lighting, the claims that never unfold, the promises that are broken.

The one thing I was actually genuinely excited for from Trump was his promise to enact term limits on congress members and, of course, he hasn't even tried to do that...

His healthcare bill stalled and then he never came back to it. And even that was just "let's cut everything and come back to it later." It wasn't an actual healthcare bill that would have solved anything.

Instead of eliminating the federal deficit he has ballooned it even further with tax cuts and increases to the military budget.

Speaking of which, his tax cut was basically nothing but a freebie to his billionaire and millionaire buddies. It didn't help middle class people nearly as much as he claimed it would. Especially since the corporate handout was permanent, but the individual benefits are only temporary.

He's failed to grow the economy by 4 percent a year, as he promised.

He didn't bring back manufacturing jobs or coal the way he promised (not that those necessarily should be brought back in the first place).

He did scale back on the EPA and he did back out of the Paris Climate Agreement but...that's a bad thing. He even put a climate change denier at the head of the EPA, which is just hilarious if not sad.

Then you talk about all the regulations that he cut that will invariably make our water and air dirtier just to make corporations more wealthy...It's just bad business for the American people. Corporations love it, but are we a country of people or a country of corporations?

He also backed out of the Iran Deal...but considering the escalation with Iran recently (culminating in the Soleimani kill and subsequent bombing of American bases in Iraq) I think many people would consider that a bad decision as well.

Even his economy, which he claims is his big accomplishment, is mostly not related to him. If you look at GDP growth, the Stock Market, payroll job growth, unemployment, consumer confidence, manufacturing activity and average hourly earnings, they're all virtually the same as/on trend with how they were under Obama. There may be a small uptick here and there, but it's not sustained in any way. In fact, the one thing that has consistently gone up since Trump took office have been Stock buybacks, which are great for the companies and the share holders of those companies, but they tend to paint an inaccurate picture of what is happening in the economy. Money spent on buying back stocks is money not spent on improving the lives of the workers (note: workers and shareholders are different) of those companies. The intended purpose of the tax cut was to lower corporate tax rates so that companies spend more money on job creation and increasing wages/benefits/bonuses for their workers, not to encourage buybacks.

Even his promise to not cut Social Security and Medicaid is now looking like a lie, as his proposed budget for 2020 arguably contains cuts to both programs, in addition to several other social programs like SNAP and WIC as well as the Student Loan Forgiveness program. 

He's even failed to build his stupid wall! 

I just...I don't know what a Trump accomplishment is. Even if he has had a few (which I'm sure he has, I just can't think of them right now) it's hard to give him credit for those when compared with all the damage he's done.

He hasn't done any favors for our international image, either. Most countries' leaders and citizens think we're a joke because of Trump. He's a walking joke.

And ALL that is not even taking into account his constant courting of white supremacists, Nazis, KKK members and, generally, bigots of the worst variety.

As far as the biggest turnout in American history....I don't think it's required to beat Trump.

Remember, even when running against Hillary Clinton, one of the most unpopular candidates this country has ever seen, she still got 3 million more votes than Trump. And the votes that decided the election were in states that Democrats had previously won every year since 1988 (Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania). And they lost those votes by extremely slim margins - a total of ~78,000 votes -  and were states that Hillary basically didn't campaign in because she's a terrible campaigner.

Bernie Sanders is currently the Senator with the highest approval rating in the entire country. All he needs to do is flip those three states and carry what Hillary carried in 2016 (virtually all of them typical Democrat states) and you've got a defeated Donald.

And, for what it's worth, Donald Trump's approval rating is lower than his approval rating as he entered office. So the odds that he GAINED voters between 2016 and 2020 are relatively slim.

This is way too long of an answer but, basically, Trump doesn't have nearly as many accomplishments as you seem to think he does and he has way more vulnerability than I think you are willing to admit in the 2020 election.

[Dill]

(02-22-2020, 12:41 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: The dems seem to be collapsing, but keep an eye on the house and it's media. They are the trojan horse in this election. If you've noticed, we are all the sudden regurgitating Russian election interference. Did you notice that the Bernie campaign was actually suspect as well? The dems don't like Bernie, and they don't like El Trumpo. Watch this unfold because that's going to be their plan with the media and click bait material. If Bloomberg gains much more ground, your going to see the same about him as well. Many dems view him as republican in dem clothing.

Harley could you provide some clarification here.


Are you saying that there is no current intel assessment that Russia intends to interfere with our election in favor of Trump in 2020?

Are you saying that, nonetheless, Dems in the House are manufacturing Russian threats tailored to Dem establishment needs?  So if Bernie is doing well they claim the Russians are supporting him, and they will do this if Bloomberg continues to rise--all disconnected from any real basis in intelligence?

Just want to be sure I don't misunderstand you. 

There is NO intel threat according to our intel agencies, or the agencies manufactured one for the Dems?

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(02-22-2020, 01:52 AM)Benton Wrote: A halfway decent candidate could flip a flyover state or two, maybe even Ohio.

Not maybe, I think definitely.

Trump got crushed in the primary in Ohio. I think Ohio just really didn't like Hillary.

(2016 also tells me Bernie being the candidate in the general is certainly not the answer on who can get Ohio blue. He got beat by 13% in Ohio last time.)

[Benton]

(02-24-2020, 09:38 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Not maybe, I think definitely.

Trump got crushed in the primary in Ohio. I think Ohio just really didn't like Hillary.

(2016 also tells me Bernie being the candidate in the general is certainly not the answer on who can get Ohio blue. He got beat by 13% in Ohio last time.)

I think some of it depends some on the candidate. Ohio is blue collar. An election between trump and Bernie would be close, as far as Ohio goes. I think most of the rest of the candidates has a strong chance of making it there. 

[treee]

(02-24-2020, 07:05 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Russian interference is an agreed upon fact within the US intelligence community and they have been warning us for 4 years that it never ended. We knew 4 years ago that, in addition to promoting Trump, they sought to promote Bernie Sanders too, so none of this is new. 

Both are outsider, burn it all down candidates. 

Russian cyber ops also 'supported' black lives matter, me too, the kneeling controversy. They have no qualms stoking the fire on both sides of the aisle. Their goal is to create divisive rhetoric and undermine the confidence of US citizens in their government.

I wouldnt be surprised at all if a majority of the vitrolic Sanders' supporters online turned out to be Russian troll jobs.

[Yojimbo]

Hmm.

“ The US intelligence community's top election security official appears to have overstated the intelligence community's formal assessment of Russian interference in the 2020 election, omitting important nuance during a briefing with lawmakers earlier this month, three national security officials told CNN.”

https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/23/politics/intelligence-briefer-russian-interference-trump-sanders/index.html

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(02-21-2020, 11:47 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: With all of Trump's accomplishments and the dumpster fire that is the group of Democratic candidates, in the debate, Bernie said "we need the biggest turnout in history in this election."

Did he just say that so people that have no clue about the current status of the country and wouldn't vote otherwise will come out and vote against Trump based on emotion without any real understanding of the way things are?  Is he hoping they'll hear his vision of socialism (remind me to buy a gun if he gets elected [before he bans them]) and just come out and blindly vote for him because they think the country will be a paradise?

The Democrats are collapsing, so is he just hoping that people see Trump as some rich prick that they can't identify with and that they'll all buy into his promises?

You benefit from socialism.  Right? Thank goodness we live in a country that provides you government benefits (aka "free stuff") so you're not living on the streets or your family isn't devastated financially. 

What about the free stuff farmers are getting?  Twenty-eight billion dollar subsidy over the past two years in Trump bucks for a self-inflicted trade war with China in addition to the regular farm subsidies with more Trump bucks on the way.  Farmers are getting more in Trump bucks than NASA's entire annual budget.

What about over $13 billion in government subsidies to Boeing in one year?  

Just between the Trump bucks and Boeing's subsidies that's $41 billion that could be used to pay for education.  Education has a direct impact upon our citizen's earning potential over their lifetime.  The more they earn the more they pay in taxes.  Investing in the education of our citizens is investing in our future and would increase tax revenue.  The government would get that money back so it's not "free stuff" as some like to claim.  I'm a prime example.  The Army paid for me to go to PA school.  Now I make 4-5 times what I did prior to PA school thus my personal income tax paid to the government has increased.  It's a win-win.  Both the government and I are better off because they invested in my education.  My tax dollars in turn help pay social security disability for others and I'm happy to do my part.  My life is better off for "socialism" programs.  Maybe you should consider how your life has been improved by dirty ol' "socialism."

And just between you and me, I'd rather give free stuff to the middle class than give free stuff to multi-billion dollar corporations like Boeing.

[JS-Steelerfan]

(02-25-2020, 05:12 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: You benefit from socialism.  Right? Thank goodness we live in a country that provides you government benefits (aka "free stuff") so you're not living on the streets or your family isn't devastated financially. 

What about the free stuff farmers are getting?  Twenty-eight billion dollar subsidy over the past two years in Trump bucks for a self-inflicted trade war with China in addition to the regular farm subsidies with more Trump bucks on the way.  Farmers are getting more in Trump bucks than NASA's entire annual budget.

What about over $13 billion in government subsidies to Boeing in one year?  

Just between the Trump bucks and Boeing's subsidies that's $41 billion that could be used to pay for education.  Education has a direct impact upon our citizen's earning potential over their lifetime.  The more they earn the more they pay in taxes.  Investing in the education of our citizens is investing in our future and would increase tax revenue.  The government would get that money back so it's not "free stuff" as some like to claim.  I'm a prime example.  The Army paid for me to go to PA school.  Now I make 4-5 times what I did prior to PA school thus my personal income tax paid to the government has increased.  It's a win-win.  Both the government and I are better off because they invested in my education.  My tax dollars in turn help pay social security disability for others and I'm happy to do my part.  My life is better off for "socialism" programs.  Maybe you should consider how your life has been improved by dirty ol' "socialism."

And just between you and me, I'd rather give free stuff to the middle class than give free stuff to multi-billion dollar corporations like Boeing.

But ... but ... 

Socialism bad!  Capitalism good!  Isn’t that what every good ‘murican is supposed to believe?  

[BFritz21]

(02-25-2020, 05:12 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: You benefit from socialism.  Right? Thank goodness we live in a country that provides you government benefits (aka "free stuff") so you're not living on the streets or your family isn't devastated financially. 

Incorrect.  

I benefit from social programs, but that's not socialism.  

Actually, that's far from socialism.  I think you need to look up what socialism is.

(02-25-2020, 05:12 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: What about the free stuff farmers are getting?  Twenty-eight billion dollar subsidy over the past two years in Trump bucks for a self-inflicted trade war with China in addition to the regular farm subsidies with more Trump bucks on the way.  Farmers are getting more in Trump bucks than NASA's entire annual budget.

You have a problem with investing in this country's farming industry to make us more independent from countries like China?

(02-25-2020, 05:12 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: What about over $13 billion in government subsidies to Boeing in one year?  

Just between the Trump bucks and Boeing's subsidies that's $41 billion that could be used to pay for education.  Education has a direct impact upon our citizen's earning potential over their lifetime.  The more they earn the more they pay in taxes.  Investing in the education of our citizens is investing in our future and would increase tax revenue.  The government would get that money back so it's not "free stuff" as some like to claim.  I'm a prime example.  The Army paid for me to go to PA school.  Now I make 4-5 times what I did prior to PA school thus my personal income tax paid to the government has increased.  It's a win-win.  Both the government and I are better off because they invested in my education.  My tax dollars in turn help pay social security disability for others and I'm happy to do my part.  My life is better off for "socialism" programs.  Maybe you should consider how your life has been improved by dirty ol' "socialism."

And just between you and me, I'd rather give free stuff to the middle class than give free stuff to multi-billion dollar corporations like Boeing.

Once again, social programs are not socialism and you need to do some research to find out what socialism is before you vote in a psycho like Bernie.  

I have considered how my life would be destroyed by socialism and even mentioned on Facebook how I need to start training to get a gun license in case our country goes to socialism and the hell that comes with it.  

[BFritz21]

(02-25-2020, 06:37 PM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: But ... but ... 

Socialism bad!  Capitalism good!  Isn’t that what every good ‘murican is supposed to believe?  

When has socialism EVER worked?  You'd rather the government control everything and strip us of the freedoms that this country is based on and that made our country great?

[hollodero]

(02-25-2020, 06:41 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: When has socialism EVER worked?  You'd rather the government control everything and strip us of the freedoms that this country is based on and that made our country great?

In all fairness, the socialism you have in mind is not the socialism Sanders is talking about.

He's argueing for a social democratic system like in European countries. Not for socialism like in the communist countries.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(02-25-2020, 06:38 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Incorrect.  

I benefit from social programs, but that's not socialism.  

Actually, that's far from socialism.  I think you need to look up what socialism is.

You have a problem with investing in this country's farming industry to make us more independent from countries like China?




Once again, social programs are not socialism and you need to do some research to find out what socialism is before you vote in a psycho like Bernie.  

I have considered how my life would be destroyed by socialism and even mentioned on Facebook how I need to start training to get a gun license in case our country goes to socialism and the hell that comes with it.  

Since you have made a distinction between social programs and socialism, can you explain to me how the social programs Bernie Sanders has suggested are socialism and not social programs like you benefit from?

Do you really need a gun to protect yourself from universal healthcare?

How would that work? You go to the ER. They don’t charge you for the visit. You pull your gun and scream, “F U, you socialist bastids! TAKE MY GOD DAMN ‘MERICAN MONEY!!!!!!! TAKE MY MONEY NOWWWWWWW!”

Is that the type of hell you’re talking about?

[HarleyDog]

(02-24-2020, 07:18 PM)Dill Wrote: Harley could you provide some clarification here.


Are you saying that there is no current intel assessment that Russia intends to interfere with our election in favor of Trump in 2020?

Are you saying that, nonetheless, Dems in the House are manufacturing Russian threats tailored to Dem establishment needs?  So if Bernie is doing well they claim the Russians are supporting him, and they will do this if Bloomberg continues to rise--all disconnected from any real basis in intelligence?

Just want to be sure I don't misunderstand you. 

There is NO intel threat according to our intel agencies, or the agencies manufactured one for the Dems?

Fair questions, but it was a response out of frustration. Do I think the Russians have been interfering? I don't know, I suspect they could be. They've already come at Trump with this, and now Bernie as well. I think it's quite possible the dems are behind the Russian interference. Regardless of the goals of the party, it doesn't mean some individuals are not capable.

One good thing Bernie has over Trump is his ability to not give accusations much weight and moves on. Trump get's pissed off and has to try and defend himself on Twitter. I wish he wouldn't do that because the more attention he gives the continuous assaults on his presidency, the more he get's distracted from doing what he's there to do. 

[Benton]

(02-25-2020, 05:12 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: You benefit from socialism.  Right? Thank goodness we live in a country that provides you government benefits (aka "free stuff") so you're not living on the streets or your family isn't devastated financially. 

What about the free stuff farmers are getting?  Twenty-eight billion dollar subsidy over the past two years in Trump bucks for a self-inflicted trade war with China in addition to the regular farm subsidies with more Trump bucks on the way.  Farmers are getting more in Trump bucks than NASA's entire annual budget.

What about over $13 billion in government subsidies to Boeing in one year?  

Just between the Trump bucks and Boeing's subsidies that's $41 billion that could be used to pay for education.  Education has a direct impact upon our citizen's earning potential over their lifetime.  The more they earn the more they pay in taxes.  Investing in the education of our citizens is investing in our future and would increase tax revenue.  The government would get that money back so it's not "free stuff" as some like to claim.  I'm a prime example.  The Army paid for me to go to PA school.  Now I make 4-5 times what I did prior to PA school thus my personal income tax paid to the government has increased.  It's a win-win.  Both the government and I are better off because they invested in my education.  My tax dollars in turn help pay social security disability for others and I'm happy to do my part.  My life is better off for "socialism" programs.  Maybe you should consider how your life has been improved by dirty ol' "socialism."

And just between you and me, I'd rather give free stuff to the middle class than give free stuff to multi-billion dollar corporations like Boeing.

Yeah, the overwhelming majority of people benefit in form from socialism.... They just want their programs and the rest are going to end the country.

(02-25-2020, 06:38 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Incorrect.  

I benefit from social programs, but that's not socialism.  

Actually, that's far from socialism.  I think you need to look up what socialism is.

You have a problem with investing in this country's farming industry to make us more independent from countries like China?




Once again, social programs are not socialism and you need to do some research to find out what socialism is before you vote in a psycho like Bernie.  

I have considered how my life would be destroyed by socialism and even mentioned on Facebook how I need to start training to get a gun license in case our country goes to socialism and the hell that comes with it.  

Social programs = socialism.

And it's not investing in Farmers, it's subsidizing them. In a free market, they would set their own prices and depending on markets, get rich or fail. But Farmers get regulated and when the markets hurt them, they get subsidies to help make up for it.

Which is similar to our approach to labor. Used to, markets and labor dictated how much they made. Now, we subsidize poverty.