Does Bernie Know Dems Need A Miracle?

[Mike M (the other one)]

(02-27-2020, 07:38 AM)Dill Wrote: That is part of the attraction to Bernie.

He would make America great again by spending on infrastructure (not a wall) and education.

LOL I've listed many ways we could save money and cut down on illegals coming here, that's not just a wall thing. Shoot just the amount of money we spend on illegals annually can almost fully fund all US HS students for four years of college. but of course, none of you want to believe that cause that's not what your told.

[hollodero]

(02-27-2020, 03:17 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Shoot just the amount of money we spend on illegals annually can almost fully fund all US HS students for four years of college.

How much money do you spend on illegals annually? I mean a net amount. Illegals do pay taxes, that needs to be counted in.

I'm not straight up dismissing what you say, but I have no idea about the numbers behind it.

Edit let me add that to substantially cut down on illegals, you need more money for border control also. This is also money that is not available for education.

[GMDino]

(02-27-2020, 03:21 PM)hollodero Wrote: How much money do you spend on illegals annually? I mean a net amount. Illegals do pay taxes, that needs to be counted in.

I'm not straight up dismissing what you say, but I have no idea about the numbers behind it.

No sources listed? 

[JS-Steelerfan]

(02-27-2020, 11:02 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: You're wasting your time with actual facts backed up by authoritative sources. 

Yeah, Brad denies any information that doesn't line up with his preconceived notions.  Debate with him is entirely fruitless.  

[Dill]

(02-27-2020, 03:07 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: I would assess Bernie's chances of winning like this: If the Dems show up and vote for him, he will win.

I think that is right.  I think Biden has similar chances.

Problem is some Dems (esp. Bernie followers) still don't understand that the threat of Trump trumps, or should trump, all party division.

The two demographics that worry me most are Bernie bros and African-Americans.  I remember talking to two BBs who had refused to vote for Hilary. Even after Trump's election they insisted they still would not have voted for her.

I think Biden will do well with AAs, but not as well as Obama did. Bernie will show better than he has recently, but again, not nearly the support Obama had.  Just speculating here.

Trump damage to government will become more and more apparent over the next few months. This may help to suppress some of the previous Trump vote and motivate others who understand, finally, what is a stake when presidency and party are captured by an authoritarian--one with littel idea of how government actually works.

[Dill]

(02-27-2020, 03:17 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: LOL I've listed many ways we could save money and cut down on illegals coming here, that's not just a wall thing. Shoot just the amount of money we spend on illegals annually can almost fully fund all US HS students for four years of college. but of course,

none of you want to believe that cause that's not what your told.

Interesting point there.  But . . .

Whom do you think "tells us what we are told," and who tells you what you are told?

Or are you somehow "not told"?

Serious questions, raised in part by recent definitions of "socialism" and "social democracy."  

I believe the answers lead to an understanding of the real ground of division between our parties at the moment.

[BFritz21]

(02-27-2020, 03:47 PM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: Yeah, Brad denies any information that doesn't line up with his preconceived notions.  Debate with him is entirely fruitless.  

Ha.  Typical Steelers fan.

I happily debate with anyone that post things that make sense and have any knowledgable backing.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(02-27-2020, 04:31 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Ha.  Typical Steelers fan.

I happily debate with anyone that post things that make sense and have any knowledgable backing.

Great, please explain how Medicare for All is socialism and not a social program like you previously stated you would. Thanks.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(02-27-2020, 03:21 PM)hollodero Wrote: How much money do you spend on illegals annually? I mean a net amount. Illegals do pay taxes, that needs to be counted in.

I'm not straight up dismissing what you say, but I have no idea about the numbers behind it.

Edit let me add that to substantially cut down on illegals, you need more money for border control also. This is also money that is not available for education.

I'm aware of the money they contribute in taxes that go unclaimed.
Last I recall it was about $11.6B (For Fed/State/Local taxes).

In a study for Unpaid Medical bills from Illegals alone from the WSJ (11.9B):

[U]ninsured immigrants who are unauthorized likely receive about $4.6 billion in health services paid for by federal taxes, $2.8 billion in health services financed by state and local taxpayers, another $3.0 bankrolled through “cost-shifting” i.e., higher payments by insured patients to cover hospital uncompensated care losses, and roughly $1.5 billion in physician charity care.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/illegal-immigrants-get-public-health-care-despite-federal-policy-1458850082

Forbes claims:
How American Citizens Finance $18.5 Billion In Health Care For Unauthorized Immigrants

https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2018/02/26/how-american-citizens-finance-health-care-for-undocumented-immigrants/#7228490912c4

So before we even get started on the amount of money we spend on their kids that were born here but parents were not legal USC's (Those numbers are hidden from us because they are counted as USC's. But they get full benefits and their parents do not have to show their USC status. The kids get Medic aid, free lunches and all that jazz. Even Food Stamps cause the parents cant legally report an income with out getting in trouble.

Now back when Trump was screaming about them costing us $275B annually, some people came out and tried to do a report, here's one where they are costing us $54B annually (this includes deducting the taxes paid to)
https://www.heritage.org/immigration/report/the-fiscal-cost-unlawful-immigrants-and-amnesty-the-us-taxpayer

There are approximately 3.7 million unlawful immigrant households in the U.S. These households impose a net fiscal burden of around $54.5 billion per year.

Amnesty for unlawful immigrants can pose large fiscal costs for U.S. taxpayers including public education, welfare benefits, and other benefits and services.

Policymakers must ensure that the interaction of welfare and other financial transfer programs with immigration does not expand the fiscally dependent population.

Direct benefits. These include Social Security, Medicare, unemployment insurance, and workers’ compensation.
[*]Means-tested welfare benefits. There are over 80 of these programs which, at a cost of nearly $900 billion per year, provide cash, food, housing, medical, and other services to roughly 100 million low-income Americans. Major programs include Medicaid, food stamps, the refundable Earned Income Tax Credit, public housing, Supplemental Security Income, and Temporary Assistance for Needy Families.
[*]Public education. At a cost of $12,300 per pupil per year, these services are largely free or heavily subsidized for low-income parents.
[*]Population-based services. Police, fire, highways, parks, and similar services, as the National Academy of Sciences determined in its study of the fiscal costs of immigration, generally have to expand as new immigrants enter a community; someone has to bear the cost of that expansion.


So there's a lot of Hidden things that roll up into the costs of those illegal aliens that many people will not talk about or steer the focus away from so they can just keep you going on one part where they can win.



Anyways, it's vastly an unknown number because no one wants to truly research it because it would probably give many USC's a heart attack lol.  My guess is it's double the 54B ($108B). and half what Trump said, (274B) 137B, some where in that range.


EDIT: Fastest way to make it stop as we go forward is to change the Citizenship granting from Born on Soil (Jus Soli) to by Blood (Jus Sanguinis). That move alone would take away the incentive to have your baby born in the US at all costs. The benefit would be gone so pregnant women about to deliver would have no reason to have their baby here anymore. The businesses of the wealthy Chinese having their babies here would also end.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(02-27-2020, 05:15 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Great, please explain how Medicare for All is socialism and not a social program like you previously stated you would. Thanks.

I'm not sure how to answer that question. Even though I'm a Conservative by nature.. I'm still all for a Medicare Social Program for all Legal USC's and we all pay a flat tax for that benefit. It wouldn't be much different that what we pay now. Also We could visit any Hospital in the US and not have to worry about (crap I'm on vacation and in another state and need an emergency appendectomy done) not being covered on your plan. One plan for all and all accept it. And it is changed to NOT FOR PROFIT.

Also not against finding a way to have College Education for free either. As you said, it's an investment in the people and once done they can make a better wage and pay more in taxes so win for both sides.

Lastly, the infrastructure in the US needs to be rebuilt before it falls apart on us.

[fredtoast]

(02-27-2020, 03:17 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote:  Shoot just the amount of money we spend on illegals annually can almost fully fund all US HS students for four years of college. but of course, none of you want to believe that cause that's not what your told.

Actually I don't want to believe it because the numbers are bullshit.

There are currently over 15.5 million high school students.  The average cost of a year of college (in-state tuition at state school not private) is $9,700.  

That works out to over $600 BILLION for 4 years.  Care to show me how the United States spends $600 billion per year on "illegals"?

[hollodero]

(02-27-2020, 05:19 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: There are approximately 3.7 million unlawful immigrant households in the U.S. These households impose a net fiscal burden of around $54.5 billion per year.

OK, that's hard to dismiss. The one thing I'd mention is that these costs mainly seem to stem from the fact that illegal immigrants are low-income. Hence roughly the same number of cost could be attributed to an equal number of low-income US citizens.

I wonder if there would be significantly less low-income households if you put illegal immigrants out of the equation. If there wouldn't be (for example because those low-income jobs would be filled by an increased number of legal immigrants, out of necessity), then costs are not really reduced and this calculation would be misleading in that regard.

But that is not meant to dismiss the point. From far away, I'd agree that the US has many illegal residents and this is probably problematic.

[hollodero]

(02-27-2020, 05:19 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: EDIT: Fastest way to make it stop as we go forward is to change the Citizenship granting from Born on Soil (Jus Soli) to by Blood (Jus Sanguinis). That move alone  would take away the incentive to have your baby born in the US at all costs. The benefit would be gone so pregnant women about to deliver would have no reason to have their baby here anymore. The businesses of the wealthy Chinese having their babies here would also end.

That is an understandable position for sure. But I guess changing that would be against the constitution?

Which means nothing to me, I consider your constitution stone-old and not up to the modern time anyway. But you americans seem to be real touchy about any changes there.

[BFritz21]

(02-27-2020, 05:15 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Great, please explain how Medicare for All is socialism and not a social program like you previously stated you would. Thanks.

When you force it on people and don't give people the choice, it's socialism.  

Do you need more of an explanation than that?

[treee]

(02-28-2020, 01:09 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: When you force it on people and don't give people the choice, it's socialism.  

Do you need more of an explanation than that?

You mean like social security? The one that everyone has to pay and has saved families from financial ruin? The same social security which makes sure people who suffer life-altering injuries don't end up in abject poverty due to their misfortune?

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(02-28-2020, 01:09 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: When you force it on people and don't give people the choice, it's socialism.  

Do you need more of an explanation than that?

First, thanks for the explanation.

Second, I’ll let you explain it to you . . .

(02-25-2020, 06:38 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Incorrect.  

I benefit from social programs, but that's not socialism.  

Actually, that's far from socialism.  I think you need to look up what socialism is.

Once again, social programs are not socialism and you need to do some research to find out what socialism is

Yes, for the love of god, do some damn research before telling others to do some research when it is painfully obvious you don’t even know the basics.

[Belsnickel]

(02-28-2020, 01:09 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: When you force it on people and don't give people the choice, it's socialism.  

Do you need more of an explanation than that?

I am saying this as a political scientist: you should stop trying to make authoritative declarative statements about socialism.

[BFritz21]

(02-28-2020, 08:38 AM)treee Wrote: You mean like social security? The one that everyone has to pay and has saved families from financial ruin? The same social security which makes sure people who suffer life-altering injuries don't end up in abject poverty due to their misfortune?

Yes, because you think I WANT to have to get government aid and be financially dependent on the government?!  You think ANYONE wants that?!  And the aid I get wouldn't be enough for me to get by if my family weren't well-off, so how would the government have enough money to give every family enough money to be happy and prosperous if we went socialist?!

You think my healthcare is quality?  I don't need too much and it still blows, especially if anything goes wrong. 

Like I said, my family is able to help out a lot, which I'm very lucky because my government healthcare blows.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(02-28-2020, 11:42 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: Yes, because you think I WANT to have to get government aid and be financially dependent on the government?!  You think ANYONE wants that?!  And the aid I get wouldn't be enough for me to get by if my family weren't well-off, so how would the government have enough money to give every family enough money to be happy and prosperous if we went socialist?!

You think my healthcare is quality?  I don't need too much and it still blows, especially if anything goes wrong. 

Like I said, my family is able to help out a lot, which I'm very lucky because my government healthcare blows.

And make sure you vote against the guy who wants to improve your healthcare because that would be hell. Vote Trump because he is trying to make your healthcare worse.

Wow, talk about a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside of an enigma.

[treee]

(02-28-2020, 11:42 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: Yes, because you think I WANT to have to get government aid and be financially dependent on the government?!  You think ANYONE wants that?!  And the aid I get wouldn't be enough for me to get by if my family weren't well-off, so how would the government have enough money to give every family enough money to be happy and prosperous if we went socialist?!

You think my healthcare is quality?  I don't need too much and it still blows, especially if anything goes wrong. 

Like I said, my family is able to help out a lot, which I'm very lucky because my government healthcare blows.

I don't relate because, ideologically, I don't see a government as anything more than a collection of people formalizing how to coexist. It seems you perceive it as some entity separate from yourself. I understand why you feel that way, because in a Representative Democracy like ours you are sometimes going to have charismatic liars who don't govern in good faith. All that to say, "We the People' have a right to collectively decide that we can distribute the resource of Healthcare more equitably (and efficiently) than an entity whose sole motive is profit.