Does God exist?

[Interceptor]

(07-26-2022, 10:59 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Does Vishnu exist?

God of the multi-handed bitchslap? I think so.

[grampahol]

I'm a Toothfairian.. I actually got cold hard cash for my teeth when I was a kid from her holy Tooth Fairy. What did I get from GAWD? Nothing...Nodda, Zip.. I did get threatened with fire and eternal burning and brimstone and blah, blah, blah if I didn't watch my Ps and Qs and tow the party line. I've been to the edge of a volcano.. I checked..Didn't see one damned sole down there screaming in agony.. I'm not impressed. My mother loved me a LOT more than any god and the only thing she threatened me with was a switch.  
Anyway, now I have a brand new set of teeth thanks to her holy Toothiness. All hail her holy Toothiness. She doesn't threaten you, but might punish you with tooth decay.

[Leon]

(08-23-2022, 12:22 AM)grampahol Wrote: I'm a Toothfairian.. I actually got cold hard cash for my teeth when I was a kid from her holy Tooth Fairy. What did I get from GAWD? Nothing...Nodda, Zip.. I did get threatened with fire and eternal burning and brimstone and blah, blah, blah if I didn't watch my Ps and Qs and tow the party line. I've been to the edge of a volcano.. I checked..Didn't see one damned sole down there screaming in agony.. I'm not impressed. My mother loved me a LOT more than any god and the only thing she threatened me with was a switch.  
Anyway, now I have a brand new set of teeth thanks to her holy Toothiness. All hail her holy Toothiness. She doesn't threaten you, but might punish you with tooth decay.

probably not the best idea to mock God but thats up to you. i pray that you accept the truth sooner than later and let God into your life. i know it can be hard if you are mad at God or dont want to know you have a higher power to answer to but once you accept Him your life will change and everything gets much clearer and you realize how bad it was to mock Him.

[Arturo Bandini]

One interesting question.

Let's accept that God exists. ( Theologically God IS, he doesn't EXISTS but whatever ).

Can he intervene in this world and why does he let kid starving, having cancer and rewarding bad people. We can see that everywhere on daily basis.

[Leon]

(08-27-2022, 05:25 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: One interesting question.

Let's accept that God exists. ( Theologically God IS, he doesn't EXISTS but whatever ).

Can he intervene in this world and why does he let kid starving, having cancer and rewarding bad people. We can see that everywhere on daily basis.

this is a fair and honest question buddy. 

God places us in the world. that world has bad things and bad people. we have free will in a fallen world. bad people and bad actions exist cause of free will an people choose to do bad things. suffering exist cause its a fallen world infected by the choice made in the garden. things didnt have to be this way. it could have been paradise but the choice was made to reject that. now its a fallen world and suffering is one of the results of that. 

if you got a very nice clean house an you choise to fill it with dirt and trash, its gonna become infested with bad things. you cant complain about suffering from diseases gotten from the infesting when you allowed it in the first place.

[Arturo Bandini]

(08-27-2022, 05:42 PM)Leon Wrote: this is a fair and honest question buddy. 

God places us in the world. that world has bad things and bad people. we have free will in a fallen world. bad people and bad actions exist cause of free will an people choose to do bad things. suffering exist cause its a fallen world infected by the choice made in the garden. things didnt have to be this way. it could have been paradise but the choice was made to reject that. now its a fallen world and suffering is one of the results of that. 

if you got a very nice clean house an you choise to fill it with dirt and trash, its gonna become infested with bad things. you cant complain about suffering from diseases gotten from the infesting when you allowed it in the first place.

Well, if this is a bad world and bad people, who created them ? I think it was possible to create a good world and good people ?

BTW, having cancer, being strike by the thunder or losing a dad or a mom or a kid isn't really free will.

If you're born today in Peru being the 10th kid of a poor family, you already know your life is going to be way harder than being the only son or daughter of Jeff Bezos, that doesn't have much to do with free will.

Thanks for your answer.

[Leon]

(08-27-2022, 06:07 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Well, if this is a bad world and bad people, who created them ? I think it was possible to create a good world and good people ?

BTW, having cancer, being strike by the thunder or losing a dad or a mom or a kid isn't really free will.

If you're born today in Peru being the 10th kid of a poor family, you already know your life is going to be way harder than being the only son or daughter of Jeff Bezos, that doesn't have much to do with free will.

Thanks for your answer.

yessir. the world is hard and unfair. thats a direct result of being fallen. God did create a perfect world for us without death, disease, bad things. but he also gave us free will and we used it to decide we didnt want a perfect world. so now were left with the consiquences. but God in his mercy gave us a second chance if were willing to accept it. 

when you talk about things that arent choices but are just things thats happen out of your control, thats a result of a fallen world. those situations wouldnt exist if we had chose the right path in the beginning. we made the choice in the garden and now we have to live with it. but only during our time here if we make the right choice the second time.

my wife has stage 3 breast cancer and is going thru cemo and is suffering a lot. but she has given her life to God and accepted her salvation so no matter what happens here in this world, she has everlasting life waiting for her.

[Arturo Bandini]

If we have fallen ( we're still paying for that ) ? It's because he made us fallable and he already knew what was about to happen because if not he's not God and has no clue of what he's doing.

So he already knew that billions of people will have to suffer for absolutely nothing. It was his plan from the start. He knew what he was doing all along.

Doesn't sound good to me.

When a kid prays for his dad or mom to heal nothing happens, he just doesn't care, he's too busy giving millions to horrible people.

It's not a plan, it's a punishment for things you didn't even do.

There's only two choices.

He can't intervene in this world ( And I know why ) or he has a problem. Giving pain, suffering to people why knowing he'll never experience that.

[IsaacCurtis]

The bible is a bunch of man made hypocrisy, malarkey.

But it's also code by ,for the people who invented religion.

But there's no such thing as a savior or a Christian god.

There might be something out there but there's no way it's involved with the finite stories in the bible.

First off, giving it a gender is just dumb.

An all knowing infinite being who lives outside time and space,can't be called a man.

He gave his only son? No, he took 3 days off and came back.

It's not the same as any parents losing a child.

[BmorePat87]

No clue. As of now, no one can prove or disprove, though the burden of proof is on those making the claim that god(s) do(es) exist.

In the meantime, worship whichever god(s) you want and don't try to force it on anyone.

[Beaker]

People who believe in a christian god believe he is omnipotent...knows all sees all, past present and future...the alpha and the omega. If that were true, free will has nothing to do with anything because a truly omnipotent god would already know, at the moment he created you, every single choice you were ever going to make.

So he creates all of us, already knowing that some of us are not going to accept belief in him, or follow the rules the bible says we need to follow to be accepted into his afterlife reward. Makes zero sense if you claim, as christians do, that he loves all of us. He created the non-believers, knowing when he created them that they would be non-believers, just so he could condemn them to eternal damnation? Doesn't sound loving to me.

And if you claim that he doesn't know what choices his creations will make, then he's not truly omnipotent. That simply makes him some sadistic entity. That's where religion fails the logic test.

[GMDino]

(08-30-2022, 07:01 PM)Beaker Wrote: People who believe in a christian god believe he is omnipotent...knows all sees all, past present and future...the alpha and the omega. If that were true, free will has nothing to do with anything because a truly omnipotent god would already know, at the moment he created you, every single choice you were ever going to make.

So he creates all of us, already knowing that some of us are not going to accept belief in him, or follow the rules the bible says we need to follow to be accepted into his afterlife reward. Makes zero sense if you claim, as christians do, that he loves all of us. He created the non-believers, knowing when he created them that they would be non-believers, just so he could condemn them to eternal damnation? Doesn't sound loving to me.

And if you claim that he doesn't know what choices his creations will make, then he's not truly omnipotent. That simply makes him some sadistic entity. That's where religion fails the logic test.

And I agree with this take with an addition:

That is why I don't think we go to hell based on what we believe, or which god we believe in.  We are to enjoy our lives and be good to others and treat all of nature with respect.  That's it.  We're here to take care of each other and our shared home.  Do that and you've led a "good" life.

[BigPapaKain]

(08-30-2022, 08:22 PM)GMDino Wrote: And I agree with this take with an addition:

That is why I don't think we go to hell based on what we believe, or which god we believe in.  We are to enjoy our lives and be good to others and treat all of nature with respect.  That's it.  We're here to take care of each other and our shared home.  Do that and you've led a "good" life.

My cousin believes that life itself is Hell; a Crucible for your soul and when you die you ascend.

It's a nice enough thought and kind of tracks, given how pain is the litmus test for being alive.

I still think I prefer oblivion to spending eternity with any of you assholes, though lol

[Arturo Bandini]

(08-31-2022, 07:14 AM)BigPapaKain Wrote: My cousin believes that life itself is Hell; a Crucible for your soul and when you die you ascend.

It's a nice enough thought and kind of tracks, given how pain is the litmus test for being alive.

I still think I prefer oblivion to spending eternity with any of you assholes, though lol

Why are we in Hell without even knowing why ?

[Matt_Crimson]

(07-29-2022, 03:42 PM)Lucidus Wrote: Suffering isn't a byproduct of evil; evil is the label we give to certain types of suffering -- that which is profoundly wicked / immoral. If someone is dealing with chronic pain, we could simply call that suffering. If that same person is in chronic pain because a psychopath is holding them hostage and beating them everyday, we could rightfully deem that evil. 

Sorry, very late reply but thanks for the response.

Your argument seems to be that God is evil because we suffer. So is God only evil because more serious suffering like rape happens, or is he evil because suffering exists at all? If it's only specific suffering that makes God evil then what is it that makes other suffering such as chronic pain as you noted in your reply not evil when attributing all suffering to God?

Quote:If you believe that God is omniscient, then the intent is unquestionable. He knew that his creation would commit endless acts of evil upon each other, and he decided to create them anyway; permitting them the freedom to do exactly what he knew they would. By definition, that is intent. 

I disagree here. I wouldnt say knowledge proves intent. God may very well know our actions but that doesn't mean he actually wanted those actions to take place. Rather, he is watching what he knew would happen play out. 

God knowing the ending does not change the fact that every individual still had to make the choices that got to that ending, regardless of what God knew about it.

God wanting the story to play out and God wanting us to suffer are two different things.

Quote:If you and I go into the lab and create a new humanesque species that we knew in advance will continuously rape, torture and kill it's youngest and weakest; would we not be as equally responsible for those actions as the species itself? Even worse, is the idea that we possessed the ability to fix the issue and refused to do so. That would most certainly seem to suggest that we were indeed evil.

No, I wouldn't say we were responsible for those actions if those actions are made by their own free will. Regardless of whether we knew it would happen, it doesn't erase the fact that an individualistic choice had to be made for that event to take place and the initiator of that action bears the consequences of it,  not the creator. The creation of the entity isn't the reason the suffering event takes place. It's the taking of the action itself. Without that there is simply just a created being that hasn't done anything yet. We would be responsible for bringing that being into the world, but we wouldn't bear responsibility for what that creation does. They chose to do whatever they did, so that's on them.

As for the inaction issue.

Let's say I see someone with a gun walking towards a school. This person sees me and says "you better get out of here I'm about to shoot this school up" and instead of stopping the guy I allow his free will to play out. 

But, I also have the ability to remove any pain/suffering from the lives of those who experience the event.

What about that makes me evil?

Quote:Then why have suffering at all, if it can simply be erased? Once erased, it means it never happened in the person's mind. So, why have it happen in the first place? It would be like a hypnotist reasoning with his wife that it's OK if he abuses her everyday because someday he'll wipe it from her memory. It's OK that she suffers now, because she won't know about it later. This seems rather insidious.

Great question. Why allow suffering if it can just be erased?

Well, to start, this is why I am making the point about intent. To even ask the question is to debate the intent. You seem to have already concluded the intent was just for us to suffer and therefore,, in your words, that makes God evil. 

My conclusion differs from yours. I believe God allows suffering as a consequence for sin. I dont believe suffering is God's way of just having fun with us and then erasing it all. The erasing part, which I would consider God's salvation, is what comes after we've made the choice to turn from sin and accept Jesus as our savior.

Lastly, to the hypnotist example. Again, we need to talk about intent here. When you say the hypnotist is "abusing" his wife, there's context that needs to be given to explain what you mean by that.

With God you have to account for free will, sin. and salvation to make the "abuse" have meaning. It's not just about erasing the suffering, it's about the sum of the parts.

[BigPapaKain]

(08-31-2022, 08:45 AM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Why are we in Hell without even knowing why ?

I mean reality does suck and there is very rarely a reason for anything.

[XenoMorph]

If you look up in the Sky its the BIG BRIGHT YELLOW BALL

[Arturo Bandini]

For me, the only explanation is that one :

There is nothing else but God. Which is traduced by I am. That's our first step.

But God is asking himself that question : Is there anything else but me ?

Even if he knows the answer, he wanted to demonstrate it so he created 'something' that isn't him which is ... Nothing. The idea of nothing.

When he did that, there were 2 things on : God and nothing ... and he had to merge both things. So he injected himself into nothing ( also known as THE BIG BANG ).

But to prove and demonstrate that everything that isn't him can't be, we ( all the universe ) have to somehow do things that can't be possible in a God's point of view.

[ The universe is the tool to demonstrate the impossibility of everything that is possibly impossible ]


And everything that isn't God is dying, stuggling, can't last forever. Every possible case of 'This is not God' That's what every atom of the void is doing.

The universe is a mathematic equation with only one answer : God.

A gigantic mathematical problem.

And at the end of this experience, this universe will become God and there will be again just one thing : God without the idea of nothing.

Weirdly this is an immaculate conception but this does not concern men only ... it is the universe. The Son of God is the Universe at the end of its gestation.

God is the father

The Void is the mother

The 'Son' of God identical to God is the universe fullfilled.

It's like resolving an equation 1+0=1 and getting the 0 out of the chart forever as it can't be and it will never be and never was.

And God finally answering his question by this :

There is nothing else but Me and even where I'm not, I am.

[Bengalfan4life27c]

I feel that their could be a god. The god of this planet isn't necessarily the god of the universe.. Their is more evidence of reincarnation upon death than their is of a god.

[grampahol]

(08-27-2022, 05:42 PM)Leon Wrote: this is a fair and honest question buddy. 

God places us in the world. that world has bad things and bad people. we have free will in a fallen world. bad people and bad actions exist cause of free will an people choose to do bad things. suffering exist cause its a fallen world infected by the choice made in the garden. things didnt have to be this way. it could have been paradise but the choice was made to reject that. now its a fallen world and suffering is one of the results of that. 

if you got a very nice clean house an you choise to fill it with dirt and trash, its gonna become infested with bad things. you cant complain about suffering from diseases gotten from the infesting when you allowed it in the first place.

He put us here to protect apples from women. We're all sinners because some broad ate one once.. Whenever I'm in the produce section at the grocery and see a woman checking out the apples I just know no good is going to come of it.. Motherhood and apple pie? A setup!