Does God exist?

[CJD]

(07-27-2022, 01:56 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I would disagree. Gods have existed without a belief in an afterlife (at least that we know of) in human history. That being said, I would argue that the fear of the uncertainty of what happens after death has been the reason for religion. Gods are more of the result of explaining things larger than us; beyond our comprehension.

Good point. I agree with the bolded. I focused on the unanswerable questions side of it in my initial post, but explaining things beyond our comprehension is a good example of that too. There are a lot of things that Religion sought to explain before science was developed enough for us to get the actual reasoning.

And while Gods may have existed without a belief in an afterlife at some point in human history (I'm not sure which Gods those are, but I trust you), I think adherence to those Gods (whether it be following a code of morals/rules like the Bible or giving sacrifices/tributes to those Gods) is essentially entirely tied to fear of consequences should you not do those things, either in the after life or in the current life.

[*Nately120*]

(07-27-2022, 01:59 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: While I go to a church, I tend to believe in more of a universal truth. The idea of love for one another is something that transcends religions. All cultures have had this as a part of their beliefs in some way or another. I think the Jewish concept of tikkun olam is a great way to think of it. A responsibility to improve the world, a responsibility for the welfare of all. Each society calls it something a little different, but they all have had this as a part of their beliefs.

That's how I feel about it, but I can also see how stuff like that gets overshadowed by the magical aspects and the "here is what's in it for you" sales pitch of religion, as well.

I haven't researched it lately, but you sound like you are describing most of the Baha'i' faith.


In thousands upon thousands of locations around the world, the teachings of the Bahá’í Faith inspire individuals and communities as they work to improve their own lives and contribute to the advancement of civilization. Bahá’í beliefs address such essential themes as the oneness of God and religion, the oneness of humanity and freedom from prejudice, the inherent nobility of the human being, the progressive revelation of religious truth, the development of spiritual qualities, the integration of worship and service, the fundamental equality of the sexes, the harmony between religion and science, the centrality of justice to all human endeavours, the importance of education, and the dynamics of the relationships that are to bind together individuals, communities, and institutions as humanity advances towards its collective maturity.

[Lucidus]

(07-27-2022, 01:38 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: I believe in God. I also believe in Jesus. But I don't believe because I have been told to believe, or because "it says in the Book that ya gotta believe!". Quite frankly, I have some real issues with taking everything in the Bible literally. I believe because I choose to believe. That's it. A leap of faith, as they say. And I think that that concept of 'choice' is fundamental to Judeo-Christian theology. Also, it is a very personal decision.

Some folks don't like to see religion put so simply as "a choice". They might say it trivializes their faith and fuels arguments for people who are not religious. Personally. I don't care. I don't see it as my job to "win souls" for the faith (similar to collecting scalps, IMAO). If people choose not to believe for whatever reason (evil in the world, lack of evidence, priestly perverts, etc), then so be it. That is their choice. I'm not going to argue with them or berate their choice because it differs from mine. And the reason I don't is because the one solid thing that  have found in the Bible that makes the most sense is the Shema: (basically) "Love God and love your neighbor". Some of you will recognize this from Matthew 22:37-40. And I would extend this in my own believe to read "and show your love for God by loving your neighbor". Personally, I think that is what it is all about. Why would religious belief need to be any more complicated than that?

I've always found this approach somewhat curious. If I may, could I ask what you did find in the Bible that you found persuasive enough to compel belief in God? Would you still have come to that belief if the Bible didn't exist?

[Lucidus]

(07-26-2022, 10:51 PM)guyofthetiger Wrote: I've been reading many posts here and they are just so anti-God it is unbelievable. I guess some people have decided God does not exist. I personally know He exists. How can I prove it? Every time someone challenges the Bible, they reach a dead end because facts are facts. My brother says religion is for the weak and need to believe in something. I tell him it is about living the best life on earth. God does answer prayers and I've seen it first hand. Maybe not the way I thought it would be answered, but they get answered. It says in the Bible God answered the prayers of righteous people. Why would somebody expect an answer if they are unrighteous? The answer is yes God exists.

Why does this God allow innocent children to be abused, molested, tortured and killed? Are those children required to appease him with a request before he can intervene? Must they appeal to his ego in order to relieve their suffering?

It seems he's either completely impotent and / or indifferent in such cases; if real, being either useless or monstrous.

[BigPapaKain]

(07-27-2022, 03:07 PM)Lucidus Wrote: Why does this God allow innocent children to be abused, molested, tortured and killed? Are those children required to appease him with a request before he can intervene? Must they appeal to his ego in order to relieve their suffering?

It seems he's either completely impotent and / or indifferent is such cases; if real, being either useless or monstrous.

As John Constantine said: "God is a kid with an ant farm."

[treee]

I see religion as early social development for humanity. It allowed humans to be able to operate under a shared set of norms and enabled larger social organization than otherwise possible at the time.

[Leon]

(07-26-2022, 10:51 PM)guyofthetiger Wrote: I've been reading many posts here and they are just so anti-God it is unbelievable. I guess some people have decided God does not exist. I personally know He exists. How can I prove it? Every time someone challenges the Bible, they reach a dead end because facts are facts. My brother says religion is for the weak and need to believe in something. I tell him it is about living the best life on earth. God does answer prayers and I've seen it first hand. Maybe not the way I thought it would be answered, but they get answered. It says in the Bible God answered the prayers of righteous people. Why would somebody expect an answer if they are unrighteous? The answer is yes God exists.

amen! thank you for starting this thread.

of course they know God is real. the unrighteous know God is real, but they don't want to give up there wickedness. like Paul said, "what can be known is plain to them because God has shown it to them". so no man has excuse to not believe. God's proof is everywhere but people live in denial cause they love there sin. 

[Bengalzona]

(07-27-2022, 02:20 PM)Lucidus Wrote: I've always found this approach somewhat curious. If I may, could I ask what you did find in the Bible that you found persuasive enough to compel belief in God? Would you still have come to that belief if the Bible didn't exist?

I would say there are some things in the Bible that reinforce my belief rather than persuaded me. In particular, pretty much all of the actual quotes attributed to Jesus. I think if someone were to remove everything from the New Testament except for Jesus' specific words, they would find a vision of Christian belief that is far, far different and better than the Christian faith as presented within our society. Unfortunately, to truly understand many of Jesus' sayings and parables, a person needs to have some grounding in the ancient Hebrew faith and religious customs and practices. And that, as I have learned, actually takes a lot of time and study. But it makes sense, since the Jesus we quote always considered himself to be a Jew and that was the primary audience that he was addressing at the time.

(Adding this on further reflection. A lot of what I have found useful from the Bible would also be useful to an agnostic or an atheist. There is wisdom there, I think, that does not require belief.)

I could give some critiques about the good things and bad things I find in the Hebrew Bible (Torah) and the writings attributed to the Apostles (particularly Paul). But for the sake of brevity, I won't do that now. Suffice it to say that I find them to be the writings of men that in some cases have some inspiration and in other cases have other influences.

As far as my belief in God, yes, I do think I would have had that belief regardless of the Bible. Personally, I have always felt like I was searching for something to believe in (i.e. I wanted to believe). So I attended many churches from many faiths. Baptist, Mormon, Lutheran, Catholic, Charismatic, Methodist, UCC, etc., and studied some philosophy. When I started looking at belief as a choice a person makes rather than a thing to be found in a certain place or faith, my searching stopped. I literally decided that I was going to believe in a higher power, even though I wasn't exactly sure what that power was or was about. I haven't regretted that choice since. 

[BigPapaKain]

(07-27-2022, 06:17 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: I would say there are some things in the Bible that reinforce my belief rather than persuaded me. In particular, pretty much all of the actual quotes attributed to Jesus. I think if someone were to remove everything from the New Testament except for Jesus' specific words, they would find a vision of Christian belief that is far, far different and better than the Christian faith as presented within our society. Unfortunately, to truly understand many of Jesus' sayings and parables, a person needs to have some grounding in the ancient Hebrew faith and religious customs and practices. And that, as I have learned, actually takes a lot of time and study. But it makes sense, since the Jesus we quote always considered himself to be a Jew and that was the primary audience that he was addressing at the time.

(Adding this on further reflection. A lot of what I have found useful from the Bible would also be useful to an agnostic or an atheist. There is wisdom there, I think, that does not require belief.)

I could give some critiques about the good things and bad things I find in the Hebrew Bible (Torah) and the writings attributed to the Apostles (particularly Paul). But for the sake of brevity, I won't do that now. Suffice it to say that I find them to be the writings of men that in some cases have some inspiration and in other cases have other influences.

As far as my belief in God, yes, I do think I would have had that belief regardless of the Bible. Personally, I have always felt like I was searching for something to believe in (i.e. I wanted to believe). So I attended many churches from many faiths. Baptist, Mormon, Lutheran, Catholic, Charismatic, Methodist, UCC, etc., and studied some philosophy. When I started looking at belief as a choice a person makes rather than a thing to be found in a certain place or faith, my searching stopped. I literally decided that I was going to believe in a higher power, even though I wasn't exactly sure what that power was or was about. I haven't regretted that choice since. 

You'd be hard pressed to find an Atheist who disagrees that Jesus had some good points. 

Sadly his message is lost in modern Christianity because everyone has to use his name to push their shitty agenda. It's ironic since most folks who do that are usually pushing the opposite of what he tried to teach. They'd hate Jesus if he existed today.

[*Nately120*]

(07-27-2022, 06:31 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: You'd be hard pressed to find an Atheist who disagrees that Jesus had some good points. 

Sadly his message is lost in modern Christianity because everyone has to use his name to push their shitty agenda. It's ironic since most folks who do that are usually pushing the opposite of what he tried to teach. They'd hate Jesus if he existed today.

Yeah, I feel like religion started off as a discipline and people just figured "Hey, instead of using this as a means to restrain and better myself why don't I use it as a way to restrict others and consider myself superior to others?"

People ruin stuff, it's what they do. 


I think it's like the difference between learning a martial art so you can hone your mind and body and follow a disciplined path versus learning a martial art so you can bully people...oh man...it's Karate Kid stuff.

[BigPapaKain]

(07-27-2022, 05:47 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: amen! thank you for starting this thread.

of course they know God is real. the unrighteous know God is real, but they don't want to give up there wickedness. like Paul said, "what can be known is plain to them because God has shown it to them". so no man has excuse to not believe. God's proof is everywhere but people live in denial cause they love there sin. 

18,000 gods but sure - yours is the real one.

[*Nately120*]

(07-27-2022, 06:46 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: 18,000 gods but sure - yours is the real one.

I think all the gods are real and as soon as you die one of the ones you see will be one you very much do NOT believe in and then once you like, piss your ethereal pants with fear they're like, we're all cool and we are just messing with you.  Come on in!

[Leon]

(07-27-2022, 01:38 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: I believe in God. I also believe in Jesus. But I don't believe because I have been told to believe, or because "it says in the Book that ya gotta believe!". Quite frankly, I have some real issues with taking everything in the Bible literally. I believe because I choose to believe. That's it. A leap of faith, as they say. And I think that that concept of 'choice' is fundamental to Judeo-Christian theology. Also, it is a very personal decision.

Some folks don't like to see religion put so simply as "a choice". They might say it trivializes their faith and fuels arguments for people who are not religious. Personally. I don't care. I don't see it as my job to "win souls" for the faith (similar to collecting scalps, IMAO). If people choose not to believe for whatever reason (evil in the world, lack of evidence, priestly perverts, etc), then so be it. That is their choice. I'm not going to argue with them or berate their choice because it differs from mine. And the reason I don't is because the one solid thing that  have found in the Bible that makes the most sense is the Shema: (basically) "Love God and love your neighbor". Some of you will recognize this from Matthew 22:37-40. And I would extend this in my own believe to read "and show your love for God by loving your neighbor". Personally, I think that is what it is all about. Why would religious belief need to be any more complicated than that?

its not enough to just say you believe. faith alone wont get you to Heaven. we all already know god exist. you have to repent of your sins and ask forgivness in Jesus name. no one comes to the father except through the Son. faith is the thing you need until your eyes are opened to the truth thats already been written on your heart. faith is the trust that what god and Jesus are telling you is true, before youve realized the truth. once you see the truth, the faith turns into absolute knowing. if you only have faith you should start opening your mind to all the proof God has give to you everywhere. 

[GMDino]

God spoke to me and I am writing another Gospel of His word.

Turns out all the translations and editing got a bunch of stuff wrong and He wants a clearly written path for us to follow.

When it is done His words will change the world.

[Leon]

(07-27-2022, 06:46 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: 18,000 gods but sure - yours is the real one.

without an objective true standard you cant really say what is real or aint real. in a God world there is an absolute foundation for knowlege. in a no God world, there ain't no absolute standard and everything is just subjective. if you believe there is absolute facts, then you believe in a God cause they don't exist in a no God world.

[CJD]

(07-27-2022, 07:10 PM)GMDino Wrote: God spoke to me and I am writing another Gospel of His word.

Turns out all the translations and editing got a bunch of stuff wrong and He wants a clearly written path for us to follow.

When it is done His words will change the world.

I feel like Joseph Smith already tried this.

[GMDino]

(07-27-2022, 07:25 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I feel like Joseph Smith already tried this.

He has spoken to many...I am just the latest.

The New Gospel will be the true Word.

[Leon]

(07-27-2022, 03:07 PM)Lucidus Wrote: Why does this God allow innocent children to be abused, molested, tortured and killed? Are those children required to appease him with a request before he can intervene? Must they appeal to his ego in order to relieve their suffering?

It seems he's either completely impotent and / or indifferent in such cases; if real, being either useless or monstrous.

what a terrible take. man has free will. thats why they can do bad things. cause they can choose to. if God interferes with free will then he would be contraditing the rights he gave man. but he does do justice and punishment to each man for what hes done. you cant want free will and then complain about having it. sorry bud, what your saying is just plain wrong.

[GMDino]

(07-27-2022, 07:29 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: what a terrible take. man has free will. thats why they can do bad things. cause they can choose to. if God interferes with free will then he would be contraditing the rights he gave man. but he does do justice and punishment to each man for what hes done. you cant want free will and then complain about having it. sorry bud, what your saying is just plain wrong.

So when the child prays to God to not be raped God must allow the rape because of free will?

Why pray?  Why ask your God for anything...even forgiveness...when He does not care what happens to the weakest and the smallest in your version of free will?

That is not my God.  

[Leon]

(07-27-2022, 07:10 PM)GMDino Wrote: God spoke to me and I am writing another Gospel of His word.

Turns out all the translations and editing got a bunch of stuff wrong and He wants a clearly written path for us to follow.

When it is done His words will change the world.

remember what Jesus went through so that we could all be forgave, even if we mocked him. sometimes if you just seriously think about that sacrifce it puts us and our actions in perspective. he literal was tortured and died for us cause he loved us so much. i just wish we would all show the respect deserved and treat that sacrifice with the same love.