Does God exist?

[Bengalzona]

(07-27-2022, 09:09 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: then i guess we agree on the most important part. be blessed sir.

You as well, sir.

[Leon]

(07-27-2022, 09:17 PM)Nately120 Wrote: So being Christian doesn't make you more moral than someone who isn't?

someone can be moral and not be a Christian. but if they end up making good moral decisions it would be because they also happen to line up with Christian morality. 

they are basically using the moral code God put on all our hearts without realizing it or admitting it.

[*Nately120*]

(07-27-2022, 09:26 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: someone can be moral and not be a Christian. but if they end up making good moral decisions it would be because they also happen to line up with Christian morality.

they are basically using the moral code God put on all our hearts without realizing it or admitting it.

So when a Christians is good it's because it lines up with Christianity but when a Christian is not good it's due to...people being imperfect and having free will? Ida know...seems a bit too convenient for me but I've been all in on it before so maybe I'll get back to it some day if I can separate it from politics again.

Also, I feel like the Bible is pretty subjective seeing as we made Trump the president instead of stoning him like the unrepentant adulterer he is.  What part of God's word do we disregard next?

[guyofthetiger]

Thanks for all the replies. It helps me understand what people think about God and Jesus. Explains a lot about our society.

[BigPapaKain]

(07-27-2022, 08:26 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Is this a 2nd edition DnD reference?  Are we talking Baldur's Gate II?

I mean it's a D&D reference. Forgotten Realms is still their #1 setting.

[*Nately120*]

(07-27-2022, 09:44 PM)guyofthetiger Wrote: Thanks for all the replies. It helps me understand what people think about God and Jesus. Explains a lot about our society.

If you want to be surrounded by more Christians maybe Mexico or a federal US prison would better suit your style.


EDIT - let me just explain my frustration a bit.  This goes with the GOP and the watering down of the cost of entry for both patriotism and Christianity.  What does it take to be a Christian?  Just believe in Jesus/God.  What does it take to be a patriot?  Just salute the flag and think America is great (unless it is good marketing to claim it is NOT great).  

Again, I'm just a big ol' cynic who lets the bad folks ruin it for everyone but just knowing that people like Jim Bakker, or Jim Jones, or every notable politician who has bombed entire countries of innocent people, or people who fantasize about starting a civil war or shooting someone who breaks into their home all the way to people on death row who have murdered children are bigger patriots and/or going to spend their eternities laughing at my damned soul because I can't grasp why Jesus makes 100% sense as a god and Vishnu or Bramah are 100% nonsense that only a heathen fool would believe.

That's what irks me about religion...I feel like Jesus would be cool with me saying I'm too damn dumb to be 100% confident I'm right.  Or maybe that is good enough and I won't find out until I die and see him...or Vishnu or something. I'm rooting for Quetzalcoatl.

Then again, I went to a catholic school for years and every morning we said a prayer and did the pledge.  I think I earned enough points from that to combine with a "Jesus is just all right with me" attitude to skate by.

[GMDino]

(07-27-2022, 07:49 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: so God should give people free will and then take it away? or should God make everyone robots who just get programed? we are in this position cause we chose right out of the gate to use free will to disobey and spit in the eye of God. in his mercy even though we didnt deserve it, he still gave us all a way out of our own wickedness through Jesus. 

There's the rub:  God only cares about us if we love him and accept his son.  Otherwise we're just out here on our own.  So why would we love a father who doesn't care about his own children?

And, again, why pray to a deity that won't answer your prayers because he just can't interfere in the rape and murder of a human?  The rapist and murderer will be accepted in to heaven before an unbaptized baby will.

That's not a god I want to follow.

[*Nately120*]

(07-27-2022, 10:12 PM)GMDino Wrote: So why would we love a father who doesn't care about his own children?

Hell if I know, but republicans are all-in on Herschel Walker for some reason.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(07-27-2022, 10:54 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: There is quite a few diverse theories on that and i am no expert by any means.

Adam and Eve were created to be Eternal.
In Genesis, death was not a part of the original perfect world, but introduced as a punishment for sin.

Adam and Eve might not have been the first *****-Sapiens, but were the first to receive Souls. Cain makes a reference to other *****-Sapiens out there and that he will likely be killed by them after he killed Abel.

One of my personal favorites that makes the most sense, is if God created the Earth in 7 days, yet scientists have shown that it took thousands of years to reach that point via the Big Bang theory... it is simply Time to an Eternal does not flow the same way as it does for the way Man calculates time. Which could also explain why the vast age discrepancies from the earlier humans were simply mathematical errors that they didn't know how to correct and just rolled with it and found a starting point later.. like after the Floods, where the age of man started to change dramatically.

There's others, so feel free to add yours and keep it civil and keep the focus on the topic not the posters

I'm not criticising, but I am legitimately asking if you actually believe what you just wrote... Evolution is infallible. 100% bulletproof.

You mean to tell me that a species has DEVOLVED to live 1/6 of what they used to? That's just beyond baffling that anyone could even think about qualifying that.

(07-27-2022, 12:08 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: We will agree on that. Take Heaven out of religion and it's gonna fail very fast.

(07-27-2022, 01:56 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I would disagree. Gods have existed without a belief in an afterlife (at least that we know of) in human history. That being said, I would argue that the fear of the uncertainty of what happens after death has been the reason for religion. Gods are more of the result of explaining things larger than us; beyond our comprehension.

(07-27-2022, 01:59 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: While I go to a church, I tend to believe in more of a universal truth. The idea of love for one another is something that transcends religions. All cultures have had this as a part of their beliefs in some way or another. I think the Jewish concept of tikkun olam is a great way to think of it. A responsibility to improve the world, a responsibility for the welfare of all. Each society calls it something a little different, but they all have had this as a part of their beliefs.

I quoted the first two because Matt said what I was going to say, but Matt's post above is EXACTLY how I feel; I have ***never*** given a shit about whether I go to heaven or not; if it exists, if I belong there, so be it. If it doesn't, I want my final resting place to be my family's ancestral tomb in Bassano del Grappa. Either way, the world and life goes on and my loved ones won't live life any differently, whether I go to heaven or not and my loved ones will of course never know that.

The reason I am a Catholic and attend mass, is because, like I said in my back and forth with Lucidus, there is quite a bit of inherent goodness and universal wisdom in the pages of the Bible and its through those pages, that I have come to realise a lot of universal truths, a lot of ways to conduct oneself and a lot about myself, that I may or may not have learned through life and experience.

Yes, there's a lot of bad stuff too, but like in my back and forth, there is still a lesson or something allegorical to get out of even the bad stuff, even if it is something as basic as, "killing people is bad, m'kay?" But that's what I've always gotten out of Catholicism, why I love attending mass and I why I just like reading the Bible at random times; I LOVE reading the wisdom in Proverbs, I thoroughly enjoy the stories in Judges (especially Samson), due to their over the top nature and thrilling moments (it's like a novella, with mini-stories throughout), Revelations is a great read, etc.

And I take a lesson, a bit of morality or some wisdom from everything: do I care if I go to heaven or not? Do I care if heaven even exists? Not at all, but I am thankful that being raised Catholic, attending mass and attending Catholic school has helped mould me into the person I am today and has taught me a lot about life, how to conduct myself and how to treat others: all of that, is universal, believer or not.

[guyofthetiger]

(07-27-2022, 09:56 PM)Nately120 Wrote: If you want to be surrounded by more Christians maybe Mexico or a federal US prison would better suit your style.


EDIT - let me just explain my frustration a bit.  This goes with the GOP and the watering down of the cost of entry for both patriotism and Christianity.  What does it take to be a Christian?  Just believe in Jesus/God.  What does it take to be a patriot?  Just salute the flag and think America is great (unless it is good marketing to claim it is NOT great).  

Again, I'm just a big ol' cynic who lets the bad folks ruin it for everyone but just knowing that people like Jim Bakker, or Jim Jones, or every notable politician who has bombed entire countries of innocent people, or people who fantasize about starting a civil war or shooting someone who breaks into their home all the way to people on death row who have murdered children are bigger patriots and/or going to spend their eternities laughing at my damned soul because I can't grasp why Jesus makes 100% sense as a god and Vishnu or Bramah are 100% nonsense that only a heathen fool would believe.

That's what irks me about religion...I feel like Jesus would be cool with me saying I'm too damn dumb to be 100% confident I'm right.  Or maybe that is good enough and I won't find out until I die and see him...or Vishnu or something. I'm rooting for Quetzalcoatl.

Then again, I went to a catholic school for years and every morning we said a prayer and did the pledge.  I think I earned enough points from that to combine with a "Jesus is just all right with me" attitude to skate by.

I would be glad to surround myself with reformed Christians. They sometimes know God better than those without extreme sins.

[*Nately120*]

(07-27-2022, 10:29 PM)guyofthetiger Wrote: I would be glad to surround myself with reformed Christians. They sometimes know God better than those without extreme sins.

Then you should be a liberal and open the border and the prison doors.  Hell, maybe you actually are.

[Matt_Crimson]

(07-27-2022, 08:42 PM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: Thanks, I guess.
But your god supposedly has the power to stop it, and doesn’t. That indifference itself is evil. If I’m walking down the street and see a rape or a child murder in progress, I’m going to attempt to stop it. Even if I don’t have the power to change it, I’m gonna make an honest effort to do so. Your his either has the power to change this and does nothing, or he’s not as powerful as you profess.

Why does God allowing suffering make him evil?

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(07-27-2022, 06:31 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: You'd be hard pressed to find an Atheist who disagrees that Jesus had some good points. 

Sadly his message is lost in modern Christianity because everyone has to use his name to push their shitty agenda. It's ironic since most folks who do that are usually pushing the opposite of what he tried to teach. They'd hate Jesus if he existed today.

(07-27-2022, 06:44 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Yeah, I feel like religion started off as a discipline and people just figured "Hey, instead of using this as a means to restrain and better myself why don't I use it as a way to restrict others and consider myself superior to others?"

People ruin stuff, it's what they do. 


I think it's like the difference between learning a martial art so you can hone your mind and body and follow a disciplined path versus learning a martial art so you can bully people...oh man...it's Karate Kid stuff.

Bingo. As I've constantly said, religion is inherently good, but once people use it to their advantage, then it can be used for evil.

(07-27-2022, 07:00 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: its not enough to just say you believe. faith alone wont get you to Heaven. we all already know god exist. you have to repent of your sins and ask forgivness in Jesus name. no one comes to the father except through the Son. faith is the thing you need until your eyes are opened to the truth thats already been written on your heart. faith is the trust that what god and Jesus are telling you is true, before youve realized the truth. once you see the truth, the faith turns into absolute knowing. if you only have faith you should start opening your mind to all the proof God has give to you everywhere. 

Oh shut up. It's disgusting how, "American Christianity," has distorted the universal truths and morals taught in actual Christianity, with this crap.

This is what CHRISTIANS believe. This is what is taught in the CHRISTIAN BIBLE.

So that means that a Buddhist Monk in Tibet, who has devoted his entire life to nature, good causes, prays every day to his own God, etc., DOESN'T know truth and how things really are, just because he doesn't believe in Jesus? Yeah, FOH with that.

One that does not believe in our God can still know truth and still behave/be a better person than any Christian. Look how many non-Americans, Christian or otherwise (though I'm highlighting the non-Christians in this case), have been SIGNIFICANTLY more-useful and beneficial to the planet and to others, than the vast majority of the Bible Thumpers that live on a farm all day in the Southern US and do nothing but shoot guns and collect government cheques/pension.

You should all be sent to a deserted island and live by your distortions of the Bible and we'll see how many of you last even a week, before you start fighting, bickering or worse.

(07-27-2022, 08:12 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: when you say "there are no gods" you just made a claim. 

and God isn't evil, his creation is. big difference.

"The guy who invented firearms isn't evil, just the gun that he created is."

FOH with that too.

I'm not saying that, "God is/isn't evil," but if you don't see the massive hypocrisy in the statement you wrote, then nobody can help you in your delusions.

If all humans are created in God's image, but humans have the potential to be evil, then surely God himself can have the potential to be evil too, right?

You can't argue that, but I will laugh at how you will attempt to spin this.

[Bengalzona]

(07-27-2022, 09:56 PM)Nately120 Wrote: That's what irks me about religion...I feel like Jesus would be cool with me saying I'm too damn dumb to be 100% confident I'm right. 

Jesus seemed pretty okay with Thomas when he had his doubts.

(Then again, he did make Thomas stick his hand in the spear wound and feel the bloody goo... there's always that aspect too.)

[Johnny Cupcakes]

(07-27-2022, 10:48 PM)Matt_Crimson Wrote: Why does God allowing suffering make him evil?

If you knew that your neighbor allowed people into his home to rape and kill innocent people, would you think of him as a good guy? Like full on had the power to stop it, but instead watched it play out because he was in the middle of some odd experiment. I think you’d probably call the cops and hope this dude went to jail for life. At least I hope you would…

[Mike M (the other one)]

(07-27-2022, 10:28 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: I'm not criticising, but I am legitimately asking if you actually believe what you just wrote... Evolution is infallible. 100% bulletproof.

You mean to tell me that a species has DEVOLVED to live 1/6 of what they used to? That's just beyond baffling that anyone could even think about qualifying that.

I think you didn't read what i wrote very well or maybe i wasn't very clear.
We didn't Devolve, our math evolved.

It's only a possibility and one of several, but i think early man had their own numbering system, and later man developing a new system that evolved and changed until it is the one we use today. This would explain the numbers decreasing over time as the new system(s) evolved over time.

Problem was they might not have been able to figure out how to convert the older number system to the new, or didn't care. I don't think early man understood the concept of counting to 10, much less 1 year = 365 days.

So what is it that you think about man living 200+years and now the majority of us can't even make it to 100??

[Arturo Bandini]

(07-27-2022, 08:56 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: but You didn't give humans free will. God did. you would be using your free will that God GAVE you to stop the the other person using the free will God GAVE them. so you want God to take away just one of your free wills? if he did that, then free will is no meaning at all. 

he has the power to stop it, but it would mean taking away free will. if he takes away free will, were just mindless puppets. there would not be any bad stuff but also no freedom.

Free Will is fake news. If we had some, we'd be all drinking cocktails on the beach at the moment. 

And your idea of God dealing with imperfect things. That's what he did. Imperfect things. If he wanted us to be better, it's his work not ours.

If I make a bad drawing, it will be on me not on the drawing or the paper.

[BigPapaKain]

(07-27-2022, 09:26 PM)Tiger Blood Wrote: someone can be moral and not be a Christian. but if they end up making good moral decisions it would be because they also happen to line up with Christian morality. 

they are basically using the moral code God put on all our hearts without realizing it or admitting it.

What a load of shit.


Good is good - what was good before Christianity remained good after its rise. What was good before Judaism was good after its rise.

Good is good, and most folks don't need a sky daddy telling them what counts.

[hollodero]

(07-28-2022, 01:29 AM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: I think you didn't read what i wrote very well or maybe i wasn't very clear.
We didn't Devolve, our math evolved.

It's only a possibility and one of several, but i think early man had their own numbering system, and later man developing a new system that evolved and changed until it is the one we use today. This would explain the numbers decreasing over time as the new system(s) evolved over time.

Problem was they might not have been able to figure out how to convert the older number system to the new, or didn't care. I don't think early man understood the concept of counting to 10, much less 1 year = 365 days.

I would think the concept of what a year is is one of the earliest observations of humankind. Winter comes once a year. The Nile floods once a year. Agriculture depends on knowing when to sow, basic village logistics demand to know how long winter will be. Basically, you can't survive on any civilized level without grasping the concept of the seasons cycle.

And hence, a year seems to be a very natural form of measuring time, like the time of a lifespan. I also can not quite imagine that the concept of a year can have such vastly different interpretations throughout time.


Since this sprang from a debate whether to take the Bible literally, it just makes so much more sense to just not do that and explain 600 year lifespans this way. And many other bible stories that are on the same level of factual incredibility. They're stories, not historical depictions, they have a message, like an allegory or a lesson. That's not derogatory or offensive towards religion, it's the only logical take in a logical world.

[*Nately120*]

(07-27-2022, 11:13 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Jesus seemed pretty okay with Thomas when he had his doubts.

(Then again, he did make Thomas stick his hand in the spear wound and feel the bloody goo... there's always that aspect too.)

Fine by me, i just get a little leery when people treat belief in Jesus as some sort of preemptive blanket pardon available to anyone.