Don't Say Gay?

[*Nately120*]

(03-28-2022, 01:53 PM)kalibengal Wrote: spot on Harley!
too young and too soon to try and influence them one way or another
just let them be kids for just a little while for godsakes!  
Next thing you know they will be asked to write on thier desk name tags what they identify as in kindergarten.i.e his, him omnisexual etc....
IMO middle school is a better starting point

PS I voted Dem last election  but we all are not the same!!

  

Is it influence or information?  That is the question, because I'd wager a lot of people will say it robs middle school children of their innocence to talk about this at that age, too.

I'm playing devils advocate and all, but to me equating discussing stuff with kids to robbing them of their innocence sounds like something the Amish would say.

I will say that our society is very "I'll tell you when you're older" about all sorts of sexual stuff (even the ultra vanilla and societally-accepted stuff), so maybe this is just another form of that.  Sex?  Ehh...don't burden kids' souls with that weird stuff, no let's get back to our fixation on violence!

I've always found stuff like this interesting.  My parents didn't protect me from asking about the existence of gays, but they were seen as prudes because I wasn't watching slasher films when I was 7 like other kids.  What an odd society we live in.

[basballguy]

(03-28-2022, 01:59 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Is it influence or information?  That is the question, because I'd wager a lot of people will say it robs middle school children of their innocence to talk about this at that age, too.

And this is why we had to get permission slips to do sex ed in middle school.  I had to sign them for my kids less than 10 years ago.

It doesn't matter if it's information....it's information I wouldn't be comfortable with someone telling my 8 year old child before I'm ready to.

Teachers have no business bringing up gender identification or sexual orientation before the kids can even spell the words male and female.  

I do believe it's a bill that very few people are asking for, but it's clear DeSantis is tired of all the bullshit.  

If teachers weren't doing it then we wouldn't have this conversation.  

[*Nately120*]

(03-28-2022, 05:34 PM)basballguy Wrote: And this is why we had to get permission slips to do sex ed in middle school.  I had to sign them for my kids less than 10 years ago.  

It doesn't matter if it's information....it's information I wouldn't be comfortable with someone telling my 8 year old child before I'm ready to.  

Teachers have no business bringing up gender identification or sexual orientation before the kids can even spell the words male and female.  

I do believe it's a bill that very few people are asking for, but it's clear DeSantis is tired of all the bullshit.  

If teachers weren't doing it then we wouldn't have this conversation.  

Shouldn't this just incentivize people to send their kids to schools that agree with their timetable of when it is right to tell kids whatever it is they deem to be right?

[HarleyDog]

(03-28-2022, 05:45 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Shouldn't this just incentivize people to send their kids to schools that agree with their timetable of when it is right to tell kids whatever it is they deem to be right?

I doubt many parents have the luxury of choosing schools for the children. 

[*Nately120*]

(03-28-2022, 05:47 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I doubt many parents have the luxury of choosing schools for the children. 

My parents had 0 college degrees between them and had regular jobs and managed to send my sister and I to a private school.  If stuff like this is a game-changing factor in education, you can find a way to get it done.

It's not a luxury, it's a priority.  You don't need to worry how woke the government gets on you if you don't rely upon the government to educate your kids.  Desantis should pretend this gay agenda is a deadly pandemic or a mass shooting so he can just ignore it.

[HarleyDog]

(03-28-2022, 05:49 PM)Nately120 Wrote: My parents had 0 college degrees between them and had regular jobs and managed to send my sister and I to a private school.  If stuff like this is a game-changing factor in education, you can find a way to get it done.

It's not a luxury, it's a priority.  You don't need to worry how woke the government gets on you if you don't rely upon the government to educate your kids.  Desantis should pretend this gay agenda is a deadly pandemic or a mass shooting so he can just ignore it.

In a larger city, I'm sure it's possible. Yet not possible everywhere. 

[*Nately120*]

(03-28-2022, 07:09 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: In a larger city, I'm sure it's possible. Yet not possible everywhere. 

We lived in Podunk PA.  

Hey, I could be wrong and I don't have kids but I don't see why neo cons can get upset when someone complains that the foodbank isn't giving out the kind of cheese they like but the idea of people complaining that the government handout education they are choosing to let their kids get doesn't fit their standards.



America, the land where we are supposed to accept that anybody can be a billionaire, but oh sending my kid to a school I agree with is impossible...let's just petition the government to make my free handout version more palatable. 

[HarleyDog]

(03-28-2022, 07:19 PM)Nately120 Wrote: We lived in Podunk PA.  

Hey, I could be wrong and I don't have kids but I don't see why neo cons can get upset when someone complains that the foodbank isn't giving out the kind of cheese they like but the idea of people complaining that the government handout education they are choosing to let their kids get doesn't fit their standards.



America, the land where we are supposed to accept that anybody can be a billionaire, but oh sending my kid to a school I agree with is impossible...let's just petition the government to make my free handout version more palatable. 

First bold: Your entire view on life and the protection of children will change when you do. Trust me.

Second bold: That view will change when you have children as well and regardless of what school they attend, you may, and probably will, attack curriculum you deem outside the parenting lines. 

Third bold: I'm disappointed that you think everyone but you, is an idiot. Your view is, "It's that simple." But it's not. 

Trust me, I'm not trying to degrade you. The way you worded your post seems a little narcissistic since you don't have experience in the matter. Which, makes me wonder how many who disagree that parents should have a say so in their kids education, actually have children? 

[basballguy]

(03-28-2022, 07:19 PM)Nately120 Wrote: We lived in Podunk PA.  

Hey, I could be wrong and I don't have kids but I don't see why neo cons can get upset when someone complains that the foodbank isn't giving out the kind of cheese they like but the idea of people complaining that the government handout education they are choosing to let their kids get doesn't fit their standards.

America, the land where we are supposed to accept that anybody can be a billionaire, but oh sending my kid to a school I agree with is impossible...let's just petition the government to make my free handout version more palatable. 

A couple things here:

1) Public education is NOT a government handout.  Public schools are a significant reason why property taxes are so high in some states.  Hell I think I'm paying around 5k/year in my taxes.  

2) If you did have kids, do you really think it's acceptable for someone else to present ideas to an 8 year old that you're not ready to explain to them?  I don't know a single parent that would say yes to this.  It's not like they're asking the kids if the dress is blue or yellow.  It's not just this stuff.  Parents would throw the same conniption fit if little Billy came home and was like "Mommy I watched Jon Snow kiss his auntie on a boat!"  

[hollodero]

(03-28-2022, 08:06 PM)basballguy Wrote: 2) If you did have kids, do you really think it's acceptable for someone else to present ideas to an 8 year old that you're not ready to explain to them?  I don't know a single parent that would say yes to this.  It's not like they're asking the kids if the dress is blue or yellow.  It's not just this stuff.  Parents would throw the same conniption fit if little Billy came home and was like "Mommy I watched Jon Snow kiss his auntie on a boat!"  

Well, good luck he did not find out what the Kingslayer does with his sister. I'd like to use this to raise a question though, if it's not getting more and more unrealistic that parents have full influence over all topics their child is confronted with in the first place. With school, TV, internet, phones and all that. This can not all be shut out air tight. The outside world will swoop in one way or another.

What if there's a schoolmate that has two daddys or two mommys, for example. Even if parents are unwilling to discuss that with their child, I might still prefer if someone else would discuss it then. And be it just that this kid with the two daddys is not seen as a freak.

[basballguy]

(03-28-2022, 08:57 PM)hollodero Wrote: Well, good luck he did not find out what the Kingslayer does with his sister. I'd like to use this to raise a question though, if it's not getting more and more unrealistic that parents have full influence over all topics their child is confronted with in the first place. With school, TV, internet, phones and all that. This can not all be shut out air tight. The outside world will swoop in one way or another.

What if there's a schoolmate that has two daddys or two mommys, for example. Even if parents are unwilling to discuss that with their child, I might still prefer if someone else would discuss it then. And be it just that this kid with the two daddys is not seen as a freak.

For your first comment.  I can't imagine a parent out there right now that isn't trying to filter the information their kindergarten aged child is receiving.  They're watching Blues Clues, not CSI Miami.  (Or whatever shows are relevant today).  They have toy phones, not real phones.  

Your other comment reminds me of a fun story.....had a bunch of kids over one day in the summer, all 6th and 7th graders swimming in the pool....my daughter comes running into the house to tell on another kid and says "Daddy, Kane is teabagging (random girl)!"  So I run outside to the pool and everyone is swimming.  I asked my daughter what teabagging means and she said "It's when you run and jump over them into into the pool!"  So after breathing a sigh of relief i just told them to stop it......This was 10 years ago.  If you think kids really do know what's up then you are giving them (and yourself when you were that age) way too much credit.  

You have to remember the age group this is focused on.  Its like 5 year olds to 8 year olds.  These kids are still learning the basics of life.  "Why?" is their favorite question.  Kids are going to learn things from other kids.  You can't avoid that.  But kids in this age group are not going to be teaching their buddies about sexual orientation or gender identity.  

It's one thing for them to ask "Why does Sarah have two dads?" to their parents (or even a teacher) and another thing for a teacher to have a lesson plan around sexual orientation or gender identity for kids in Kindergarten, First Grade, or Second Grade.  

I don't understand why some people feel the need to debate this.  Yes, it's a stupid law....but trying to find ways to justify what it's protecting against is silly.

[hollodero]

(03-28-2022, 09:37 PM)basballguy Wrote: For your first comment.  I can't imagine a parent out there right now that isn't trying to filter the information their kindergarten aged child is receiving.  They're watching Blues Clues, not CSI Miami.  (Or whatever shows are relevant today).  They have toy phones, not real phones.  

I don't really think that is true. Maybe for some children with very attentive parents. But even then not also for all their friends and schoolmates that will pass on what they saw and experienced. Not every child is thoroughly shielded from all things TV or internet. And this will only increase.

(03-28-2022, 09:37 PM)basballguy Wrote: It's one thing for them to ask "Why does Sarah have two dads?" to their parents (or even a teacher) and another thing for a teacher to have a lesson plan around sexual orientation or gender identity for kids in Kindergarten, First Grade, or Second Grade.  

I don't understand why some people feel the need to debate this.  Yes, it's a stupid law....but trying to find ways to justify what it's protecting against is silly.

Well, I could totally understand if a society decides that there shouldn't be a lesson plan around sexual orientation. I don't know if that necessarily has to happen through a law, but fine. My issue with this law as written would be that it is not sharply focused on things like that, where I'd agree, some things are not for children of young age to learn about. You just, maybe with merit, read it as focused on these issues. But in theory, this law also can be seen as declaring it illegal to talk about Sarah's two daddies. Which always can - and will by some at least - be seen as talking about homosexuality, so sexual orientation.

And imho, that's what many on the the other side see in this law, and I can not really blame them for it.

[*Nately120*]

(03-28-2022, 07:45 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: First bold: Your entire view on life and the protection of children will change when you do. Trust me.

Second bold: That view will change when you have children as well and regardless of what school they attend, you may, and probably will, attack curriculum you deem outside the parenting lines. 

Third bold: I'm disappointed that you think everyone but you, is an idiot. Your view is, "It's that simple." But it's not. 

Trust me, I'm not trying to degrade you. The way you worded your post seems a little narcissistic since you don't have experience in the matter. Which, makes me wonder how many who disagree that parents should have a say so in their kids education, actually have children? 

I find it amusing that people (not you specifically) love to assert that this country and the entire world is going to hell in a handbasket before  needling me about not wanting to have kids. 

Parents have a say in their kids education by actually sending them to schools they agree with.  I guess im the right winger now for windering why people are so insistent on relying on the government for this.  Trust that government.  Ron DeSantis is just saying this stuff because it plays well with his voter base. If he had to say that schools need to go back to converting left-handed kids, he would.

[basballguy]

(03-28-2022, 10:03 PM)hollodero Wrote: I don't really think that is true. Maybe for some children with very attentive parents. But even then not also for all their friends and schoolmates that will pass on what they saw and experienced. Not every child is thoroughly shielded from all things TV or internet. And this will only increase.



Well, I could totally understand if a society decides that there shouldn't be a lesson plan around sexual orientation. I don't know if that necessarily has to happen through a law, but fine. My issue with this law as written would be that it is not sharply focused on things like that, where I'd agree, some things are not for children of young age to learn about. You just, maybe with merit, read it as focused on these issues. But in theory, this law also can be seen as declaring it illegal to talk about Sarah's two daddies. Which always can - and will by some at least - be seen as talking about homosexuality, so sexual orientation.

And imho, that's what many on the the other side see in this law, and I can not really blame them for it.

We'll just have to disagree on the first part.  :)

Regarding what I bolded above, this is actual language in the bill:

Quote:Classroom instruction by school personnel or third parties on sexual orientation or gender identity may not occur in kindergarten through grade 3 or in a manner that is not age appropriate or developmentally appropriate

I think that draws a fine line between "instruction" and "discussion".  

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

(03-28-2022, 07:19 PM)Nately120 Wrote: We lived in Podunk PA.  

Hey, I could be wrong and I don't have kids but I don't see why neo cons can get upset when someone complains that the foodbank isn't giving out the kind of cheese they like but the idea of people complaining that the government handout education they are choosing to let their kids get doesn't fit their standards.



America, the land where we are supposed to accept that anybody can be a billionaire, but oh sending my kid to a school I agree with is impossible...let's just petition the government to make my free handout version more palatable. 

At this point I think any opinion you have is moot and you should no longer participate in this thread.

[*Nately120*]

(03-28-2022, 10:39 PM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: At this point I think any opinion you have is moot and you should no longer participate in this thread.

True, everyone I know who complains about public schools went to a public school and sends their kids to public schools.  Don't worry, I'll still pay for other people's kids to go to school, despite my moot opinion.  Alas, the price of living in a society.

Besides, we all know the "liberal indoctrination of kids" is just a nice excuse for republicans to use when their kids go all liberal on them out of some form of protest.  Ok, now I think I'm just trolling.

[Destro]

As someone who has been on the edges of what people consider a normal school age time, I can tell you that the more you try to keep from children for your own personal prejudices will turn them back ten fold. You can be honest, real and factual with kids and still present your ideals and beliefs in that framework. Once they learn the truth and facts you choose to ignore or hide, you will become untrustworthy and should they rebel, the only thing you taught them was their parents are full of sh**. There are reasons many children change things about themselves once they get to college.

If you are indeed correct and show your children the benefit to them and the world of "your ways," chances are they will gravitate towards that. Once you decide your opinions are facts, you loose credibility and respect.

[hollodero]

(03-28-2022, 10:27 PM)basballguy Wrote: We'll just have to disagree on the first part.  :)

Regarding what I bolded above, this is actual language in the bill:



I think that draws a fine line between "instruction" and "discussion".  

One can hope for, but hope is a tricky concept when it comes to laws. Where is the fine line? When I tell children not to discriminate against Sarah with the two daddys? When I tell the kids that they should accept the two daddies as people like you and me? That they love each other just like your parents love each other? I have a hunch that there will be interpretations of some uber-religious people that would claim this is children being instructed about sexual orientation and hence the teacher broke the law.


Also, in general, the kid I'd worry most about is Sarah.

[basballguy]

(03-28-2022, 11:02 PM)Destro Wrote: As someone who has been on the edges of what people consider a normal school age time, I can tell you that the more you try to keep from children for your own personal prejudices will turn them back ten fold. 

Who's expressing prejudice?

(03-28-2022, 11:02 PM)Destro Wrote:  You can be honest, real and factual with kids and still present your ideals and beliefs in that framework. Once they learn the truth and facts you choose to ignore or hide, you will become untrustworthy and should they rebel, the only thing you taught them was their parents are full of sh**. There are reasons many children change things about themselves once they get to college.

If you are indeed correct and show your children the benefit to them and the world of "your ways," chances are they will gravitate towards that. Once you decide your opinions are facts, you loose credibility and respect.

I don't think there's a parent around that will disagree with you.  However, this has nothing to do with the bill.  It's not a matter of ideals or beliefs.  It's a matter of what's age appropriate and what's not.  

I'm not sure who you're directing these comments to but I don't think it's anyone in this thread.  

[CJD]

These "You can't teach this" bills, the people who submit them always have one or two examples of an individual teacher whose curriculum was out of line and they use that as justification to try and make blanket statements around what can and cannot be taught in school.

I think it's just typical fear mongering behavior. A lot of conservatives already believe that college "brainwashes" their teenage/young adult children into leftism, so it's not going to be a far leap for them to believe that grade school is being used to radicalize children into....accepting non cishet people?

This ties perfectly into the conservative ethos that more people are trans now because liberals are "convincing" people to be trans. Like it's a trend or something. They seem to believe that humans are so weak minded that hearing anything that isn't their parents' beliefs will instantly turn their children against them in one way or another.

I have no faith that the conservatives in Florida did this out of the concern for children or their well being and just see it as yet another anti-LGBTQ bill formed around misunderstanding and/or hatred. I also don't think it will have that much of an impact on anything, as kindergarten to 3rd grade is pretty young. In my experience, no one even mentioned sex or the differences between boys and girls until 5th grade. So I'm not too bothered by the law, overall.

If kids are being taught about gender or sex from kindergarten to 3rd grade, however, I'm not sure why it's okay to teach them about heterosexual sex but not homosexual sex. I'd say it should be either both or neither.