Don't Stay in School (video/topic)

[StLucieBengal]

(11-08-2015, 11:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: How do you test kids who have not even been in school yet other than to look at the parents net worth?

Same way they test now. You test the skills they should know at their level.

[StLucieBengal]

(11-08-2015, 11:45 PM)fredtoast Wrote: In first grade?

Lol yeah that's exactly what I am talking about....  If you don't what to have a legitimate discussion. Then just say so.   You know darn well no one is sending a first grader to work.    

If all you are interested in is a gotcha type question/answer then that's fine.   Will let you waste time with someone else .  

It's obvious you know nothing about how schools measure children.   And it seems you just want to give a bunch of money to whomever you deem as worthy.  While giving the teachers unions whatever they want.    We have that system already.  It's called public schools.   Then we also have a merit based system in place... Private schools.    We can let the kids go in a failing system and just say f em.   Or let the kids who actually have a chance to make it out of that mess and into a school where they can make a better life.   Over time this will transform families as they are prepared for the sacrifice.

The ones who are leftover we encourage a real life education. Get them into a career quickly.

[fredtoast]

(11-08-2015, 11:55 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote:  let the kids who actually have a chance to make it out of that mess and into a school where they can make a better life.   Over time this will transform families as they are prepared for the sacrifice.

The ones who are leftover we encourage a real life education.   Get them into a career quickly.

I am trying really hard to have a legitmate discussion, but it is impossible with all the straw men you keep throwing up to knock down.


I am being 100% serious when I ask how you determine which first graders are going to be able to succeed and which are going to get relegated to a lifetime of unskilled labor.  I personally know some kids from poor family conditions who ended up being very successful, and I have known some kids from good family conditions who turned out to be losers.  So I don't know how you are going to judge a child by his family.

To me it sounds like you are saying that all kids from poor family conditions are judged to be losers at the first grade level.  Instead I am in favor of giving them all the same chance and then let natural competition determine which are the best instead of deciding before they are even given a chance.

[*bfine32*]

(11-08-2015, 10:53 PM)fredtoast Wrote: How do you establish an "order of merit" for kids entering the first grade?

You interview the parents and establish their level of involvement in the child's education. Unfortunately this does nothing for kids with crappy parents, but as those kids matriculate they can interview and take the palce of others that have failed to take advantage of their opportunity.

I know it is unliberal to reward those that excel; however, it is a technique.

[fredtoast]

(11-09-2015, 01:20 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I know it is unliberal to reward those that excel; however, it is a technique.

Liberals reward those who excel.  We just believe in giving everyone an equal chance instead of giving those born into privilege a head start.

I have no problem with school vouchers as long as everyone gets one, but as soon as you start dividing out the children of privilege all you are doing is giving them more privilege and increasing the inequality in our society.

[fredtoast]

(11-09-2015, 01:20 AM)bfine32 Wrote:  as those kids matriculate they can interview and take the palce of others that have failed to take advantage of their opportunity.

But isn't the whole theory behind school vouchers that children in failing schools are not getting a fair chance?  How are they supposed to move up if they are stuck in poor schools that are failing them?

[*bfine32*]

(11-09-2015, 02:22 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Liberals reward those who excel.  We just believe in giving everyone an equal chance instead of giving those born into privilege a head start.

I have no problem with school vouchers as long as everyone gets one, but as soon as you start dividing out the children of privilege all you are doing is giving them more privilege and increasing the inequality in our society.

Where did I mention anything about privilege and no they do not

[fredtoast]

(11-09-2015, 02:24 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Where did I mention anything about privilege

You are basing the childrens' voucher eligibility on their parents.

How is a poor uneducated single parent that works two jobs to make ends meet ever going to compete with well-educated wealthy parents who have more free time and can provide so many more resources like computer availability and even personal tutoring for their children?  And then there is the issue of a poor families ability to even provide the transportation to another better school in a different area.

All the voucher system will do is increase the privilege of those already born into privilege unless every child gets a voucher.

I guess the question  I have for you is this.  If the voucher system is so good then why NOT give one to every single student?

[*bfine32*]

(11-09-2015, 02:33 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You are basing the childrens' voucher eligibility on their parents.

How is a poor uneducated single parent that works two jobs to make ends meet ever going to compete with well-educated wealthy parents who have more free time and can provide so many more resources like computer availability and even personal tutoring for their children?

You must have missed the part where In said you judge the parent's involvement

[StLucieBengal]

(11-09-2015, 01:06 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I am trying really hard to have a legitmate discussion, but it is impossible with all the straw men you keep throwing up to knock down.


I am being 100% serious when I ask how you determine which first graders are going to be able to succeed and which are going to get relegated to a lifetime of unskilled labor.  I personally know some kids from poor family conditions who ended up being very successful, and I have known some kids from good family conditions who turned out to be losers.  So I don't know how you are going to judge a child by his family.

To me it sounds like you are saying that all kids from poor family conditions are judged to be losers at the first grade level.  Instead I am in favor of giving them all the same chance and then let natural competition determine which are the best instead of deciding before they are even given a chance.

You can test them on what they should know at a first grade level. But you also need to know how active their parents are.... Is it a two parent home .... They need to show they have a support system . It's very hard to succeed without a support system. The fact that this is a standard should motivate parents to step up. Now you ask about the kids with terrible parents and a terrible life. Well they better excel in something to qualify for a voucher. These kids are not good risks unless they excel at something.

Like it or not if a parent fails their kids then the kid is screwed . They need to develop their own support system . If they can develop one then they are showing the ability to excel.

You are making this out to be about parents and money. It's not . People with money don't need a voucher . Vouchers are limited and should only go to those who excel. Will this create a have and have nots ..... Yes. But the idea is that the have nots will push to elevate themselves at a young age so they can be a have.

[fredtoast]

(11-09-2015, 03:12 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Like it or not if a parent fails their kids then the kid is screwed . 

This is 100% false.

I have known people who came from terrible backgrounds with loser parents who succeeded in life.

I have also known children of privilege who turned out to be losers.

Our education system should be set up to give everyone an equal chance and let them compete on equal ground to see who is really the best.  It should not be about picking children of privilege and giving them even MORE advantage over the lower classes BEFORE they even step into a school.

[fredtoast]

(11-09-2015, 03:12 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: You are making this out to be about parents and money.  It's not . People with money don't need a voucher . 

So you would be okay with a voucher system that was just for the poor and disadvantaged?  Exclude all people over a certain income level?

[fredtoast]

(11-09-2015, 02:40 AM)bfine32 Wrote: You must have missed the part where In said you judge the parent's involvement

You must have missed the part where I said an single parent with two jobs could not possibly be as involved as two parents with much more free time and resources. 

[BmorePat87]

(11-09-2015, 03:12 AM)StLucieBengal Wrote: You can test them on what they should know at a first grade level.  But you also need to know how active their parents are.... Is it a two parent home ....  

So basically you're rewarding children for being born into affluent families and punishing children if one of their parents is not in their lives. 

This is exactly what Fred has said for the last page or two of this thread: the system you're suggesting is inherently unequal. 

[SteelCitySouth]

(11-07-2015, 03:51 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: No amount of education can be better than real life expierence.  

Imagine if we had teachers who had to have real life expierence to be able to teach.

I would actually send my kids to a school like this.

I would like an explanation as to what type of "real life experience" you feel a teacher needs and does not have.

[StLucieBengal]

(11-09-2015, 09:16 AM)fredtoast Wrote: This is 100% false.

I have known people who came from terrible backgrounds with loser parents who succeeded in life.

I have also known children of privilege who turned out to be losers.

Our education system should be set up to give everyone an equal chance and let them compete on equal ground to see who is really the best.  It should not be about picking children of privilege and giving them even MORE advantage over the lower classes BEFORE they even step into a school.

Yes we all know people who exceed expectations. But unfortunately that's the exception rather than the rule.

And I feel I need to ask you.... Do you think privileged means more money? Or just active and supportive parents? I place the value on active parents which is what I am advocating.... For some reason I get the feeling that you are hearing only parents with money. I have not spoken about money because to me it doesn't matter. Active parents or support system does.

[StLucieBengal]

(11-09-2015, 09:18 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So you would be okay with a voucher system that was just for the poor and disadvantaged?  Exclude all people over a certain income level?

People with money don't need vouchers. They send their kids to private schools anyway.

But middle class people shouldn't be excluded. And it should be regional based not national.

[StLucieBengal]

(11-09-2015, 10:17 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: So basically you're rewarding children for being born into affluent families and punishing children if one of their parents is not in their lives. 

This is exactly what Fred has said for the last page or two of this thread: the system you're suggesting is inherently unequal. 

No I am rewarding families who make education a priority. Full family unit who makes education a oriority is more likely to see success. Which makes them a good investment. The more parents want their children to succeed the more they will adjust to create a supportive enviornment to get them into a good school.

[Benton]

(11-09-2015, 10:54 AM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: I would like an explanation as to what type of "real life experience" you feel a teacher needs and does not have.

Holding down a real job?



Sorry, proceed with the serious parts of the thread.

[*michaelsean*]

We are taking this nonsense seriously? I was taught a lot of the things he's whining about. Maybe if he paid attention in history class he's learn what happens when you have an uneducated society. How to pay for a baby? What doES he want them to tell him?