Dont' discount the value of learning a skilled trade.

[SunsetBengal]

(09-01-2017, 05:45 AM)ballsofsteel Wrote: In another post he said when he was "in college", thats when he supposedly beat up a guy as big as Big Ben for harassing a girl.

People have gone to college for one semester and then dropped out but still tell everyone that they "went to college", which is true in a way but a far cry from graduating from college.

Sometimes people forget what they claimed previously and get caught making things up.

All of that happened.  I was suspended for a semester for my actions.  I did return to school and eventually graduated.  I share things from my colorful past, because there was a life lesson behind each and every one of those experiences.  (and because I'm pushing 50, and really don't care to share my experiences)

So, what is the point you want to make?  Do you have one?  Or, are you just looking to make underhanded personal attacks?

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-01-2017, 08:06 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I'm glad to know my profession is the root of all evil and completely worthless. 

Lol, any time Pat. 

Nah, I just feel like almost anything good for you, too much of it is poisonous. You need water to survive, but if you drink too much, you can die. The same with Iron, or Vitamin D, or really much of anything. Our society has simply been overdosing on college.

College was good when it was actually about getting people advanced education for things that you generally just can't learn with OTJ Training, but now it's just become a massive expected requirement for things that have no business requiring it, and causing tons of people to fall into large amounts of debt.

[SunsetBengal]

(09-01-2017, 09:39 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Is it true that a civil engineer earns more than a land surveying technologist? And does a land surveyor technologist earn more than a construction worker? If so, why? And is an Associate's degree just a piece of paper like some claim a Bachelor's degree is?  Or is it a symbol representative of the knowledge and skills you acquired through advanced education that make you more knowledgeable and skilled compared to others without the advanced education?

Not sure what point you are trying to lead up to, but I'm not really seeing much of a correlation to anything in the article I posted in the OP.  The article claims a serious need for people in skilled trades.  I agreed, and stated that it was something that I have known for years.  Even went so far as to say that if I had to do things over again, I might have went straight to that path, rather than the one that led me where I am.

So, what point are you leading up to?  Are you trying to disprove the premise of the article?  Are you trying to show that I have no business supporting it, as I do possess a bachelor's degree?

[BmorePat87]

(09-01-2017, 10:00 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Lol, any time Pat. 

Nah, I just feel like almost anything good for you, too much of it is poisonous. You need water to survive, but if you drink too much, you can die. The same with Iron, or Vitamin D, or really much of anything.

College was good when it was actually about getting people advanced education for things that you generally just can't learn with OTJ Training, but now it's just become a massive expected requirement for things that have no business requiring it, and causing tons of people to fall into large amounts of debt.

You seem to think that the only majors are library science (which is a lot more than putting books on a shelf) and teaching. 

According to the census, the plurality of Americans earn science related degrees (44%), followed by business (20%), education (14%). Of the remaining 22%, 13% are liberal arts, 4% are communications, and the remaining 5% is "other". 

The reality is that the issue doesn't lie with people who go to college and get degrees, it's with those who are pushed into college and never get a degree but keep the debt. Part of my job is finding alternative post secondary routes for my students. This includes jobs, job training programs, apprenticeships, internships, and community college programs that provide life skills training or certifications. 

[GMDino]

(09-01-2017, 10:00 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Lol, any time Pat. 

Nah, I just feel like almost anything good for you, too much of it is poisonous. You need water to survive, but if you drink too much, you can die. The same with Iron, or Vitamin D, or really much of anything. Our society has simply been overdosing on college.

College was good when it was actually about getting people advanced education for things that you generally just can't learn with OTJ Training, but now it's just become a massive expected requirement for things that have no business requiring it, and causing tons of people to fall into large amounts of debt.

(09-01-2017, 10:16 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: You seem to think that the only majors are library science (which is a lot more than putting books on a shelf) and teaching. 

According to the census, the plurality of Americans earn science related degrees (44%), followed by business (20%), education (14%). Of the remaining 22%, 13% are liberal arts, 4% are communications, and the remaining 5% is "other". 

The reality is that the issue doesn't lie with people who go to college and get degrees, it's with those who are pushed into college and never get a degree but keep the debt. Part of my job is finding alternative post secondary routes for my students. This includes jobs, job training programs, apprenticeships, internships, and community college programs that provide life skills training or certifications. 

While I agree that moderation in all things is a good policy there can never be too much education in my book.

As an aside our local school district teachers have been working without a contract for 480+ days.  The latest proposal from the school board included them paying more for their benefits and having their pay raise steps eliminated in exchange for a flat percentage across the board.  Regardless of education or training.

Oh, and based on the funds available each year.

Surprisingly the teachers did not like it.  

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-01-2017, 10:35 AM)GMDino Wrote: While I agree that moderation in all things is a good policy there can never be too much education in my book.

My problem is simply that it's become an unnecessary requirement in many cases. My mother started work later in her life (raised 4 children) and if she had started working half a dozen years later, she couldn't have gotten the job she ended up getting. It requires a college degree now. Why? Because someone decided that suddenly a college degree was necessary to do the job that people had been doing successfully for years and years without one. Same with my father, who worked most of his life in one field. Today he would need a college degree for a job he worked successfully for decades without.

There's no NEED for it, but people have decided there is, so suddenly there is.

Just ask yourself. If college suddenly stopped existing, would this job literally be impossible to perform anymore? There's some, sure, but the vast majority?

[Belsnickel]

I'm in favor of teaching skilled trades. I've been in favor of reforming our education system to place more value on it, and have been a proponent of job training programs for those un(der)employed to fit the needs of the industries. Unfortunately, this will take money and it will take a massive effort from the ED as well as HHS and HUD. These are social programs and our politicians have been reluctant to spend money on these social programs and there is currently an attempt to crumble those three departments from within.

So, think about that when you step into a voting booth. Just sayin'.

[SunsetBengal]

(09-01-2017, 10:59 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm in favor of teaching skilled trades. I've been in favor of reforming our education system to place more value on it, and have been a proponent of job training programs for those un(der)employed to fit the needs of the industries. Unfortunately, this will take money and it will take a massive effort from the ED as well as HHS and HUD. These are social programs and our politicians have been reluctant to spend money on these social programs and there is currently an attempt to crumble those three departments from within.

So, think about that when you step into a voting booth. Just sayin'.

What do you think on the subject of aptitude testing, for all students, as they get ready to enter HS?  

[GMDino]

(09-01-2017, 10:51 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: My problem is simply that it's become an unnecessary requirement in many cases. My mother started work later in her life (raised 4 children) and if she had started working half a dozen years later, she couldn't have gotten the job she ended up getting. It requires a college degree now. Why? Because someone decided that suddenly a college degree was necessary to do the job that people had been doing successfully for years and years without one. Same with my father, who worked most of his life in one field. Today he would need a college degree for a job he worked successfully for decades without.

There's no NEED for it, but people have decided there is, so suddenly there is.

Just ask yourself. If college suddenly stopped existing, would this job literally be impossible to perform anymore? There's some, sure, but the vast majority?

Well I agree the NEED for an advanced degree to get a job is unnecessary in my book too. But continuing education is a good thing.

For a job and in general.

[Belsnickel]

(09-01-2017, 11:04 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: What do you think on the subject of aptitude testing, for all students, as they get ready to enter HS?  

I disagree with it on its own. The reason is become some students just won't test well, some tests can introduce bias (the IQ test, for example, was heavily biased in favor of the white population for a long time and so erroneously scored minorities lower), etc. There are systems where elementary/middle school is all together, and during that entire time the students are evaluated by their teachers. As they move on to high school, they go to the school that fits their academic path more.

I know I like to use Germany a lot, but I know a fair amount about them. Their system isn't perfect, but this is how they operate. As they move into their equivalent of high school, they get "sorted" in this way into one of three (in some regions, four) types of schools. One is geared more towards a trade school environment, one is more of a professional school (think business, law, etc.), and one is more for the academic track, to go on to university.

Again, their system isn't perfect, but I think a longer term evaluation over the course of their lower level school years, or that in conjunction with an aptitude test, would be a better approach as it would have a higher degree of accuracy in the assessment of the student's capabilities.

[SunsetBengal]

(09-01-2017, 11:12 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I disagree with it on its own. The reason is become some students just won't test well, some tests can introduce bias (the IQ test, for example, was heavily biased in favor of the white population for a long time and so erroneously scored minorities lower), etc. There are systems where elementary/middle school is all together, and during that entire time the students are evaluated by their teachers. As they move on to high school, they go to the school that fits their academic path more.

I know I like to use Germany a lot, but I know a fair amount about them. Their system isn't perfect, but this is how they operate. As they move into their equivalent of high school, they get "sorted" in this way into one of three (in some regions, four) types of schools. One is geared more towards a trade school environment, one is more of a professional school (think business, law, etc.), and one is more for the academic track, to go on to university.

Again, their system isn't perfect, but I think a longer term evaluation over the course of their lower level school years, or that in conjunction with an aptitude test, would be a better approach as it would have a higher degree of accuracy in the assessment of the student's capabilities.

I've heard of that before.  Like you said, it isn't perfect, (is any system truly perfect?) but it is certainly a good model to look at.

[Belsnickel]

(09-01-2017, 11:20 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I've heard of that before.  Like you said, it isn't perfect, (is any system truly perfect?) but it is certainly a good model to look at.

Indeed, and again, it focuses more on the student as a whole. I know some stellar thinkers in academia that freeze up on tests. I also know some excellent test takers (like myself) that aren't good for academia (I'm much more into the application of my field rather than the theory). So this helps with that sort of issue in testing.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-01-2017, 11:08 AM)GMDino Wrote: Well I agree the NEED for an advanced degree to get a job is unnecessary in my book too. But continuing education is a good thing.

For a job and in general.

Oh, by all means. If you want to make the choice go to college and advance your education, perhaps with something you're highly interested in, that's a great thing.

My main problem really just stems from the sudden unnecessary degree requirement for getting a lot of jobs, and the overwhelming push to force kids into going to college. There's a lot of stupid people out there being pushed into getting college degrees, who really aren't helped by getting the degrees, but are then in debt for it. (The US student loan debt is somewhere in the neighborhood of $1.5t right now.)

The cynic in me says when $1.5t is involved, you just need to follow the money to find out why this system is being pushed so hard despite it being unnecessary in most cases. The average monthly student loan payment for people aged 20-30 is like $350. Roughly 13.5% of the US population has student debt right now. Keep in mind roughly 30.4% of the US population is age 17-40.


- - - - - - -
We're on pretty much the same page on this, it seems. :andy:

[Millhouse]

(09-01-2017, 11:33 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Oh, by all means. If you want to make the choice go to college and advance your education, perhaps with something you're highly interested in, that's a great thing.

My main problem really just stems from the sudden unnecessary degree requirement for getting a lot of jobs, and the overwhelming push to force kids into going to college. There's a lot of stupid people out there being pushed into getting college degrees, who really aren't helped by getting the degrees, but are then in debt for it. (The US student loan debt is somewhere in the neighborhood of $1.5t right now.)

The cynic in me says when $1.5t is involved, you just need to follow the money to find out why this system is being pushed so hard despite it being unnecessary in most cases. The average monthly student loan payment for people aged 20-30 is like $350. Roughly 13.5% of the US population has student debt right now. Keep in mind roughly 30.4% of the US population is age 17-40.


- - - - - - -
We're on pretty much the same page on this, it seems. :andy:

Gah imagine if Bernie and well Hillary got their way to provide free college, like for those from families that make under 125k a year. Can you imagine how many more stupid people would be going into college on the taxpayer's dime, only to flunk out or just quit. All the while a family that makes 150k or so has to figure out ways to pay for their kids to go to school, leaving them in debt probably. 


To the op : 

As the Judge said in Caddyshack, 'the world needs ditchdiggers too'. I believe that to be very true, though to me ditchdiggers can mean any skilled, labor, or blue-collar kind of job. 

Take truck drivers for example. Truck driving is the most important profession in our modern day world. Without them, our first world society would collapse within weeks, if not perhaps in days. The military keeps enemies at bay around the world. Farmers make sure our stores are stocked with food. Bankers make sure they are ripping people off in exchange for financial security, mostly. 

But truckers are the lifeline of our society on a day to day basis. If all trucks ceased to operate for good starting today, grocery stores would be emptied in a couple of days. Gas stations would run out of gas & diesel in a couple or so days. Then everything falls apart as people will end up doing whatever it takes to survive. Our society isn't designed today to be able to flip a switch back to the 1800s and everything will go on as normal.

So absolutely skilled jobs are very valuable, more valuable than many of not most college educated jobs. They are the pillars that hold up our society to be able to exist as it does today. 

[GMDino]

(09-01-2017, 11:33 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Oh, by all means. If you want to make the choice go to college and advance your education, perhaps with something you're highly interested in, that's a great thing.

My main problem really just stems from the sudden unnecessary degree requirement for getting a lot of jobs, and the overwhelming push to force kids into going to college. There's a lot of stupid people out there being pushed into getting college degrees, who really aren't helped by getting the degrees, but are then in debt for it. (The US student loan debt is somewhere in the neighborhood of $1.5t right now.)

The cynic in me says when $1.5t is involved, you just need to follow the money to find out why this system is being pushed so hard despite it being unnecessary in most cases. The average monthly student loan payment for people aged 20-30 is like $350. Roughly 13.5% of the US population has student debt right now. Keep in mind roughly 30.4% of the US population is age 17-40.


- - - - - - -
We're on pretty much the same page on this, it seems. :andy:

Can't say I disagree with the money grab angle.

When I started college in 1987 we were being told over and over we HAd to have a bachelor's degree to get a "good" job.  And to be honest most of my friends had dad's that had "good" jobs but they were factory type jobs and they all wanted us to "do better".  Add in the factories were closing from about 83 on and it seemed like a no brainer.

When I graduated with a BA in Communication in 1991 everyone was saying the only smart thing to do was to go for a masters so we would be ahead of all those people who only had bachelor's degrees. 

I chose not to do that.

All these years later I am in a job where I do use my communication skills, but not in the area I studied for:  radio.

Now it's almost ASSUMED that you have to go to college.  And that simply isn't (and wasn't ever) true.

[Belsnickel]

(09-01-2017, 12:49 PM)Millhouse Wrote: Gah imagine if Bernie and well Hillary got their way to provide free college, like for those from families that make under 125k a year. Can you imagine how many more stupid people would be going into college on the taxpayer's dime, only to flunk out or just quit. All the while a family that makes 150k or so has to figure out ways to pay for their kids to go to school, leaving them in debt probably. 


To the op : 

As the Judge said in Caddyshack, 'the world needs ditchdiggers too'. I believe that to be very true, though to me ditchdiggers can mean any skilled, labor, or blue-collar kind of job. 

Take truck drivers for example. Truck driving is the most important profession in our modern day world. Without them, our first world society would collapse within weeks, if not perhaps in days. The military keeps enemies at bay around the world. Farmers make sure our stores are stocked with food. Bankers make sure they are ripping people off in exchange for financial security, mostly. 

But truckers are the lifeline of our society on a day to day basis. If all trucks ceased to operate for good starting today, grocery stores would be emptied in a couple of days. Gas stations would run out of gas & diesel in a couple or so days. Then everything falls apart as people will end up doing whatever it takes to survive. Our society isn't designed today to be able to flip a switch back to the 1800s and everything will go on as normal.

So absolutely skilled jobs are very valuable, more valuable than many of not most college educated jobs. They are the pillars that hold up our society to be able to exist as it does today. 

Yeah, don't use truckers as an example. Those jobs will be gone soon, gone the way of self-driving vehicles.

[Millhouse]

(09-01-2017, 01:09 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yeah, don't use truckers as an example. Those jobs will be gone soon, gone the way of self-driving vehicles.

I saw that in a movie once. Didnt go so well tho.

[SunsetBengal]

(09-01-2017, 01:09 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yeah, don't use truckers as an example. Those jobs will be gone soon, gone the way of self-driving vehicles.

That is sort of a spooky thought.  As automation increases, the need for human labor decreases.  At some point we'll all have to take a serious look at Government supplying citizens with a living wage stipend, similar to that idea they were looking at in one of the European Nations.

Basically, they'll have to pay people to be consumers.

[Belsnickel]

(09-01-2017, 01:13 PM)Millhouse Wrote: I saw that in a movie once. Didnt go so well tho.

Yeah, but that ain't stopping them. Those long haul routes will be automated as soon as they can. They'll stage drivers outside of cities and everything because navigating urban traffic and roads will be more difficult to solve for, but those long hauls will be the first driverless vehicles we see in this country. As soon as it happens, all the big box stores will switch to it immediately.

[Belsnickel]

(09-01-2017, 01:19 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That is sort of a spooky thought.  As automation increases, the need for human labor decreases.  At some point we'll all have to take a serious look at Government supplying citizens with a living wage stipend, similar to that idea they were looking at in one of the European Nations.

Basically, they'll have to pay people to be consumers.

Yeah, basic living wage is really coming about because of this progression of automation. It's definitely not going to be right now, but as we keep moving along as a society there will be a lot of jobs like that eliminated because of automation, and then we have to figure out what to do with those that were in those jobs.