Easter

[Bengalzona]

(03-30-2016, 11:23 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: I'm assuming "your ilk", shall be off the table as well ?
It was popular for a while.

Unless it is someone in the hills of Kentucky raising ill-mannered elk: "Yer ilk came an ate my barley, sumbich!!!"

[Rotobeast]

(03-31-2016, 12:16 AM)Bengalzona Wrote: Unless it is someone in the hills of Kentucky raising ill-mannered elk: "Yer ilk came an ate my barley, sumbich!!!"

[xxlt]

(03-28-2016, 10:50 AM)GMDino Wrote: I think you mistook his personal experiences with the way he learned about Easter and how it affected him with "mocking" it.

Clearly he made his opinion clear and then asked what other thought.

I went to Catholic school from 1-12 and then a religious college for four years...and I am never ceased to be amazed at how some Christians have a zero tolerance policy for anyone or anything that even slightly is outside their belief of the religion.

Other than two posters everyone else has a had a civil discussion about Easter, its history and their feelings about it.  The two posters who did not attacked the original poster.

And, again, it could just be a mistaken interpretation of the OP...or it could be being oversensitive on a message board with wildly varying opinions on everything.

Amen.

[xxlt]

(03-28-2016, 11:47 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: Yup, First Council of Nicaea IIRC. The problem with all of this is that the equinox is actually variable depending on where you are in the world.

First Council of Nicaea where, as you know, they discussed and debated issues of faith and its practice. It is remarkable to me how often the people aware of this and other concillear events in history and able to have discussions about them and contemporary issues of religious faith and practice are scorned by some church going folk who know little about how their tradition evolved and see faith as static and not dynamic. For those folks, any question about any topic is an abomination. If these sorts had been calling the shots the Nicaea (or any other) Council would have never transpired.   

[xxlt]

(03-28-2016, 01:29 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Politics from the early church.

Linking the annual holiday to the Passover (which the events in the Bible are clearly linked) would demonstrate and emphasize the link between Judaism and Christianity. This was something the early church spend literally hundreds of years (325AD to modern times) trying to downplay.

The simple fact is that Jesus and all of the disciples were Jews. They called themselves Jews. They associated with Jewish laws and customs. Until the time of Paul, nearly every believer in Jesus' divine origins would have called themselves a Jew. Jews who did not believe in the divinity of Christ at the time looked upon the followers of Christ as a sect, similar to the way Christians today look at Mormons or Shakers. Because the followers of Christ were generally rejected among mainline Judaism at the time (Judaism was already broken into three main sects: the Sadducees, the Pharisees, and the Essenes. They weren't real welcoming to newer, smaller sects.), the followers of Christ began calling themselves "the believers" first.

The word "Christian" didn't appear until decades after Jesus' death (Acts 11:26), possibly coined by Paul or Barnabas. And it was around the time of the name change that the church began emphasizing evangelizing to the gentiles at Antioch. The two events, the name change and evangelizing to gentiles, are most certainly related. Including non-Jews into the fold without requiring them to be circumcised caused a major argument between Paul and Peter (Peter was the de facto head of the church at that time). I suspect that, as a practical matter of growing a new religion, some church leaders saw that growth would be limited if they stuck solely to converting other Jews. Paul, a Jew also, was the one responsible for re-branding the product. Paul would clearly have done well on Madison Avenue if he were alive today.

After the church "took over" the Roman Empire, there was a greater emphasis on separating from its Jewish traditions and history. People around this time didn't like Jews. They were seen as vagabonds (at a time when very few people moved more than a mile or two from where they were born) and were mistrusted. They settled on the outskirts of towns, lived in insulated communities and plied trades that others did not want (money lending, inter-city commerce and trade, etc.). These were not jobs which were appreciated or respected in Dark Age Europe.

The truth is, the Jews had no other choices. The majority were forced into exile and spread throughout the world. Everywhere they arrived, they were the 'new arrivals' and were treated as such by being forced to take jobs no one else wanted (our society is no different today, eh). But the unique thing about the Jewish people is that they accepted and excelled at these jobs. They became experts at banking, jewelry making, commerce and trade, the law, etc., occupations which modern society is built upon. And the more they succeeded, the more the societies around them depended upon them, but also hated them at the same time. Interestingly enough, that resentment says more about them than it did (does) about the Jews.

The Christian church felt obliged to take advantage of this resentment through occasional inquisitions, pogroms, etc. But despite this, the church could never condone the outright holocaust of Jews. This was due to a small passage in the Book of Revelations which says that during the apocalypse, a number of Jews would see Christ and convert. The church literally felt that they needed to keep a certain number of Jews alive and as practicing Jews in order for this prophecy to be fulfilled (interestingly enough, there is a similar passage in the Koran involving Muslims and Christians). Holocaust of the Jews would have to wait for another regime with no religous ties: the Nazis.

Today, there is more of an effort among Christians to learn about the Jewish roots of their religion. Which makes sense, seeing as you cannot even begin to understand the New Testament until you have a working understanding of the Old Testament and you cannot understand the Old Testament until you have a working understanding of early Judaism. This lack of understanding has caused more misinterpretation of Christian scripture and doctrine than anything else.

Here is a book about it:

http://www.amazon.com/Forgetting-Root-Emergence-Christianity-Judaism/dp/0809127784

Dr. Callan (the author) was at one time a theology professor in Cincinnati and I took a few classes he taught. He may still be teaching but I do not know for sure.

[Bengalzona]

(03-31-2016, 01:31 PM)xxlt Wrote: Here is a book about it:

http://www.amazon.com/Forgetting-Root-Emergence-Christianity-Judaism/dp/0809127784

Dr. Callan (the author) was at one time a theology professor in Cincinnati and I took a few classes he taught. He may still be teaching but I do not know for sure.

Thanks. Looks good. I will have to check it out. (BTW- I just ordered a copy)

The only thing from the quote I would question (somewhat) was the quote about the reconciling of the Greek and Roman calendars to the Jewish calendar proving to be difficult. To be sure, it is not an easy thing. But it is not impossible, particularly when you are talking about reconciling the date of your religions biggest holiday. I believe it wasn't done because the early Christians did not want the date linked to another religions' holiday, despite the fact that it clearly is in scripture. It was a matter of religious politics (and people never seem to make wise or logical decisions when those two are combined).

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(03-30-2016, 08:57 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Let's chill on the "your kind" talk.

You can make the same point by saying "The same reason why (liberals/atheists/whatever) will never mock Islam." without making the post directly referencing someone else. That is what we mean by personal.

I've chosen to use this as an example and a teachable moment for everyone else rather than banning. Use the warning wisely.

As a teachable moment, your coaching changes only his verbiage not his intent.  If the intent is the same, is it any different or better?  No.  To state the obvious, if the intent is the same then the intent is the same.  He could make his point without "your kind" or the use of stereotypes as a substitute for "your kind" which doesn't change his intent.  

[SteelCitySouth]

(03-30-2016, 11:23 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: I'm assuming "your ilk", shall be off the table as well ?
It was popular for a while.

It is off the table unless it is directed at you.  Then it is fine...

[XenoMorph]

(03-26-2016, 05:03 PM)xxlt Wrote: So, this is not a Happy Easter thread - sure someone will throw one up tomorrow.

Last week I was invited to an Easter lunch and had to confess I did not know when Easter is. Turns out it is tomorrow.

But, this is not new for me. Even when I attended Christian church I never knew when Easter was and thought it was a pretty insignificant holiday when it was pointed out to me. I am really not trying to pick a fight with Christians, I am just saying I never internalized Easter as a big deal - to me there were far more important things about being a Christian than going to church on Easter (or any other day for that matter), and other holidays that resonated more with me.

So, my questions are - what is your religion and is Easter a big deal for you?

My answers - I am an agnostic. I have friends who are believers (most, but not all, Christians) whom I respect and friends who are atheists whom I respect. Funny thing is it is the same thing that annoys me about both groups - but that is another topic for another thread. As I already stated, Easter is not a big deal for me. I get kind of a kick out of the winter solstice but not the summer solstice, and the spring and fall equinoxes are not a big deal for me. The pagan elements of Easter and the Christian ones are just things that don't register much with me, for some reason.

I did accept the lunch invite to be with friends, but Easter is just the pretense for the lunch and I would be hanging with some of the same people on most Sundays whether there was a lunch or not.

to me its another stolen holiday by the christian/catholic faith to convert or shame pagans.

One more holiday or celebration stolen from a past religion and repurposed for their own gain.

It was a holiday for a devine being that resurrected from the dead along time before christianity existed.

And even that i believe was personified from the beginning of Spring in the northern hemispheres and the rebirth of life in spring.

PRAISE THE SUN!!!!

[Rotobeast]

(03-31-2016, 03:30 PM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: It is off the table unless it is directed at you.  Then it is fine...

That would suggest that there are more like me.
Did you lie, when you whispered how special I was ?

[GMDino]

(03-30-2016, 11:23 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: I'm assuming "your ilk", shall be off the table as well ?
It was popular for a while.

What about an elk?

[SteelCitySouth]

(03-31-2016, 04:28 PM)Rotobeast Wrote: That would suggest that there are more like me.
Did you lie, when you whispered how special I was ?

yes

[Rotobeast]

(03-31-2016, 04:45 PM)SteelCitySouth Wrote: yes

I should have known, after seeing you and Zona cavorting around.

[Bengalzona]

(03-31-2016, 02:47 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: As a teachable moment, your coaching changes only his verbiage not his intent.  If the intent is the same, is it any different or better?  No.  To state the obvious, if the intent is the same then the intent is the same.  He could make his point without "your kind" or the use of stereotypes as a substitute for "your kind" which doesn't change his intent.  

As a Mod, my job is not to change peoples' views, beliefs, ideologies, philosophies, etc. My job is to facilitate the conversations on these boards by ensuring that boards rules are followed. As far as I am concerned, Vlad's only intent here is to express his views. I often do not agree with other people's views, but as long as they are expressing them within the board rules they are permitted to express them.

In the case of Vlad's post, he chose to use language which may be perceived to be personally negative within the context of his post. I chose this post to make an example to other posters. Believe it or not, I take no personal joy in banning or suspending people all of the time and would rather see them learn where they might be making mistakes before lowering a boom.

Quote:I thought I responded earlier, but I guess I forgot to click "Post Reply."  Oh, well.  I'm happy to do a do-over of my teachable moment so let's examine your response again.

You did respond to this earlier and it was deleted for your own benefit because the message starts out with a direct attack ("You're among the most disrestful posters...").

I have failed to make the point that we do not allow personal attacks here. I will have to use a different method.

[xxlt]

(03-31-2016, 02:10 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Thanks. Looks good. I will have to check it out. (BTW- I just ordered a copy)

The only thing from the quote I would question (somewhat) was the quote about the reconciling of the Greek and Roman calendars to the Jewish calendar proving to be difficult. To be sure, it is not an easy thing. But it is not impossible, particularly when you are talking about reconciling the date of your religions biggest holiday. I believe it wasn't done because the early Christians did not want the date linked to another religions' holiday, despite the fact that it clearly is in scripture. It was a matter of religious politics (and people never seem to make wise or logical decisions when those two are combined).

And yet not once but twice we have been told by moderators of MBs we frequent that a politics and religion sub-forum was a logical decision.

[xxlt]

(03-31-2016, 03:44 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: to me its another stolen holiday by the christian/catholic faith to convert or shame pagans.

One more holiday or celebration stolen from a past religion and repurposed for their own gain.

It was a holiday for a devine being that resurrected from the dead along time before christianity existed.

And even that i believe was personified from the beginning of Spring in the northern hemispheres and the rebirth of life in spring.

PRAISE THE SUN!!!!

Thank you for your forthright and fact based assessment.

Somehow knowing the ideas have been around so long and have co-opted and stolen and repurposed so many times makes me think there is something to them. It raises skepticism in some - and I get why - but for me it makes me say maybe there is something to all this.

[Bengalzona]

(03-31-2016, 06:44 PM)xxlt Wrote: And yet not once but twice we have been told by moderators of MBs we frequent that a politics and religion sub-forum was a logical decision.

[Belsnickel]

(03-31-2016, 06:48 PM)xxlt Wrote: Thank you for your forthright and fact based assessment.

Somehow knowing the ideas have been around so long and have co-opted and stolen and repurposed so many times makes me think there is something to them. It raises skepticism in some - and I get why - but for me it makes me say maybe there is something to all this.

This is going to sound a little new agey, so get ready. In my experience, certain days have a certain energy about them. There is a connecting energy flowing all around us and we subconsciously recognize this, and always have. This is why we see this continuarion in these sorts of holidays throughout history.

[Rotobeast]

(03-31-2016, 10:23 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: This is going to sound a little new agey, so get ready. In my experience, certain days have a certainenergy about them. There is a connecting energy flowing all around us and we subconsciously recognize this, and always have. This is why we see this sort of continuarion inthese sorts of holidays throughout history.

I agree.

[Vlad]

(03-28-2016, 07:22 AM)GMDino Wrote: Irony...and a general insult!

Solid post!

Anyway...

Easter was always an odd holiday for me as a Catholic.  Lots of stories of pain and torture to show how much Jesus went through to show his love for us and show how being peaceful was better than war.

And that part resonated...until I was old enough to see the nuns were beating kids with rulers and the priests were abusing little boys.

Then it became another story that the "leaders" told us to live by while they ignored it.

Easter Sunday itself is amazing.  The mass time for the proceeding 3 days is tortuous.

Beyond that the message is wonderful...it is just a shame that so many who claim to love the message never realize we should all be acting it out too.

Interesting that you touched on the Passion of Christ, but nothing about the main reason you attend mass on Easter...you know, to celebrate the resurrection from the dead your Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

You do believe Christ rose from the dead right?