Education Comparisons

[StLucieBengal]

Get government out of education. Give the incentives to home school.

[McC]

(03-12-2016, 06:09 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Get government out of education.   Give the incentives to home school.

What about households with two working parents?  Or single working parents?

[StLucieBengal]

(03-12-2016, 06:34 PM)McC Wrote: What about households with two working parents?  Or single working parents?

Hire teachers or someone to run the home schooling. Allows them to hire only the best of they choose.

[fredtoast]

(03-12-2016, 07:39 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Hire teachers or someone to run the home schooling.   Allows them to hire only the best of they choose.

What about the ones who can not afford to pay for private tutors?  I am sure that is pretty expensive.

[StLucieBengal]

(03-13-2016, 12:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What about the ones who can not afford to pay for private tutors?  I am sure that is pretty expensive.

Depends on what they charge . I'm sure there will be budget tutors out there.... Especially since there will be a need for them.

[Beaker]

The biggest reason we lag in math and science is that many in our society no longer emphasize and value education. As much as a stereotype as it is, virtually every asian student I have had comes from a family who puts education first...sometimes to the detriment of putting unrealistic pressure on the kid to perform. I know that is a generalization, but I am using it to make a point. The reason so many home schooled kids seem to do well is because they come from families who value education enough, and prioritize it enough to even do it themselves to make sure the kid is getting a proper education. You would be surprised at the number of kids that come from decent socioeconomic backgrounds who simply have absolutely zero desire to learn anything. And when you try to contact the parents about the child's struggles, they are non-existent. Won't come to meetings, won't answer e-mails, won't return phone calls, etc. If the child doesn't care about learning, and the parent doesn't value the child's education enough to even return a phone call, then it really does not make much of a difference how good the teacher is.

Teacher accountability is definitely necessary. But there are ways teachers can be evaluated for effectiveness other than standardized testing. In some states, standardized tests make up 50% of a teacher's evaluation. If that is the case, what do you expect the teachers to do? They will teach to the test. A better method of teacher evaluation would be through formal and informal observations. You have unannounced walk throughs and observations of classes in progress. You have formal observations where the teacher has a pre-conference to go over not only the lesson they will teach, but how that lesson ties into state standards, how it ties into previous lessons, how it ties into lessons that will follow, how it addresses the learning needs of a diverse group of students, in what ways the teacher plans to account for understanding by all students, how it ties in to other things like math and social studies, how it promotes real world experiences for students, and how it may spark interest in related careers. Then the teacher is observed giving the lesson. Finally, there is a post conference to discuss how the lesson actually achieved those goals. These can occur once in the first semester, and again in the second. This would give a much better picture of the teacher effectiveness than the scores on a standardized test.

There is no more true statement than "what you get out of an education is exactly what you put into it". There is an overwhelming paradigm in the US today of entitlement and feeling that things should be handed to you. Our kids are soft and want everything spoon fed to them. If it challenges them even a little, or requires critical thought, very few are stepping up to solve the problem....many more just tend to give up and say "I can't do it". I had much higher scores for my kids when all my assessments required writing and explanations. They had to know the concepts and be able to explain to me how they work. Now the school requires common assessments. For example all math teachers, or all science teachers are required to give the same tests. Common assessments mean multiple choice, with maybe an essay question or 2. Multiple choice requires almost zero critical thinking or problem solving....no matter how well you try to word the questions.

The focus of education has become teacher accountability. While important, it is done now to the detriment of student accountability. Until we as a society return to the idea that education is the highest priority, and that is the responsibility of the student, the parent and the teacher, we will continue to be throwing money away and getting worse and worse at the education of our children.

[Sovereign Nation]

(03-12-2016, 06:34 PM)McC Wrote: What about households with two working parents?  Or single working parents?

(03-13-2016, 12:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What about the ones who can not afford to pay for private tutors?  I am sure that is pretty expensive.

I guess the issue I have with these questions is because I am of a mind of "What about them?"

I don't care about the households with 2 working parents or a single working parent.

I don't care about the ones that cannot afford a private tutor.

Though if you ask me the amount of day care cost could easily be allocated to getting a private tutor.  Day care is expensive and a tutor could cost about the same, depending on what you are looking for.

As the child gets older then you could look at apprenticeship programs to further their education.

[GMDino]

(03-13-2016, 04:42 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: I guess the issue I have with these questions is because I am of a mind of "What about them?"

I don't care about the households with 2 working parents or a single working parent.

I don't care about the ones that cannot afford a private tutor.

Though if you ask me the amount of day care cost could easily be allocated to getting a private tutor.  Day care is expensive and a tutor could cost about the same, depending on what you are looking for.

As the child gets older then you could look at apprenticeship programs to further their education.

Ah!  Good old American, Christian values where you don't care about the least among us.

Makes my heart swell with pride.

Let's make America great again by making it harder for the least among us to get ahead.  Brilliant!

[StLucieBengal]

(03-13-2016, 04:45 PM)GMDino Wrote: Ah!  Good old American, Christian values where you don't care about the least among us.

Makes my heart swell with pride.

Let's make America great again by making it harder for the least among us to get ahead.  Brilliant!

doesn't it come down to how much you value your child's education? He actually makes a great point about daycare costs vs tutors. But you just want to make it out that he somehow doesn't care about poor people?

That's nothing more than a cheap shot and you are better than that Dino.

[Sovereign Nation]

(03-13-2016, 04:49 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: doesn't it come down to how much you value your child's education?    He actually makes a great point about daycare costs vs tutors.     But you just want to make it out that he somehow doesn't care about poor people?      

That's nothing more than a cheap shot and you are better than that Dino.

No he's not.  He knows he doesn't have much of an argument, so true to Marxist ideology he decided to bring up "Good Ole Christian values".

You see the idea is to make me stay within the parameters of a "moral" code, even if he openly mocks that code, while he can pretend to have a moral high ground.

I am not "moral", because I don't care about the poor among us and am willing to state that.  However, he hasn't done anything for the poor among us either, but he at least "cares" enough for them to keep them enslaved to a broken system and dependent on the system.

While I don't care about other people's children, I never said that I wouldn't help in my own way.  I would be more than happy to assist people that actually needed help.  So true to those "Good Ole Christian values", I will refer to Aesop's fables of "God helps those who help themselves".

 

[Sovereign Nation]

(03-13-2016, 04:45 PM)GMDino Wrote: Ah!  Good old American, Christian values where you don't care about the least among us.

Makes my heart swell with pride.

Let's make America great again by making it harder for the least among us to get ahead.  Brilliant!

You are mistaken.  I do care about the least among us, as long as they are trying to better themselves.  A lot of the "least" as you put it aren't even trying.  Instead it is just more complaining about how rich other people are and what they can do for their children, while yours doesn't have the same opportunities.

There is nothing Christian about helping people that don't have the drive to help themselves.  It isn't real altruism if I am forced to give.  Real Christian charity is when you do something of your own accord, not so you don't go to jail.

[GMDino]

(03-13-2016, 04:49 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: doesn't it come down to how much you value your child's education?    He actually makes a great point about daycare costs vs tutors.     But you just want to make it out that he somehow doesn't care about poor people?      

That's nothing more than a cheap shot and you are better than that Dino.

(03-13-2016, 04:42 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: I guess the issue I have with these questions is because I am of a mind of "What about them?"


I don't care about the households with 2 working parents or a single working parent.

I don't care about the ones that cannot afford a private tutor.

(03-13-2016, 05:08 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: You are mistaken.  I do care about the least among us, as long as they are trying to better themselves.  A lot of the "least" as you put it aren't even trying.  Instead it is just more complaining about how rich other people are and what they can do for their children, while yours doesn't have the same opportunities.

There is nothing Christian about helping people that don't have the drive to help themselves.  It isn't real altruism if I am forced to give.  Real Christian charity is when you do something of your own accord, not so you don't go to jail.

See when someone says "I don't care" that is generally what I take it to mean.

Then when they later add some sort of qualifier they can deny what they said.

See?


Back to the topic of education if someone feels that somehow this country would be better off by having each household teach their own children I wish you good luck with that.

If you think a tutor would do the same as day care you also don't understand what a teacher does.

But please carry on with this line of thought.  I'll be thrilled to see how else we can separate the rich and the poor to make America great again.

[GMDino]

(03-13-2016, 05:04 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: No he's not.  He knows he doesn't have much of an argument, so true to Marxist ideology he decided to bring up "Good Ole Christian values".

You see the idea is to make me stay within the parameters of a "moral" code, even if he openly mocks that code, while he can pretend to have a moral high ground.

I am not "moral", because I don't care about the poor among us and am willing to state that.  However, he hasn't done anything for the poor among us either, but he at least "cares" enough for them to keep them enslaved to a broken system and dependent on the system.

While I don't care about other people's children, I never said that I wouldn't help in my own way.  I would be more than happy to assist people that actually needed help.  So true to those "Good Ole Christian values", I will refer to Aesop's fables of "God helps those who help themselves".

 

SN I figured you for the type who wants Christian values in America.  If not I apologize.  I did not mean to pigeon hole you into always being moral, but merely to infer that being moral means caring and taking care of those who need it most. 

Carrying for the least among us is paramount to the Christian.  Or at least it was.

I guess you can assume what I do and do not do for the poor.  i was raised to not make a big deal about charity.  (Another Christian thing I was taught.)  I have no reason to prove to you or anyone anything I do.   

But also remember Aesop wasn't talking about the Christian god.  So if you want Zeus or Herculese to help ya I guess there is that.  

[Sovereign Nation]

(03-13-2016, 05:39 PM)GMDino Wrote:





See when someone says "I don't care" that is generally what I take it to mean.

Then when they later add some sort of qualifier they can deny what they said.

See?


Back to the topic of education if someone feels that somehow this country would be better off by having each household teach their own children I wish you good luck with that.

If you think a tutor would do the same as day care you also don't understand what a teacher does.

But please carry on with this line of thought.  I'll be thrilled to see how else we can separate the rich and the poor to make America great again.

You see your mistake is thinking that Single parent or a home with 2 working parents are "the least among us".

Why should I care about another family's child?  I have my own to take care of and I shouldn't be burdened with theirs.

As you said though.  Back to education.

Why don't you enlighten us, tell me what a teacher does and how I am not understanding how a private tutor can provide a better educational experience than a public school teacher?  Tell me how the high cost of Day care couldn't be allocated to providing a tutor for a child?

[GMDino]

(03-13-2016, 05:49 PM)Sovereign Nation Wrote: You see your mistake is thinking that Single parent or a home with 2 working parents are "the least among us".

Why should I care about another family's child?  I have my own to take care of and I shouldn't be burdened with theirs.

As you said though.  Back to education.

Why don't you enlighten us, tell me what a teacher does and how I am not understanding how a private tutor can provide a better educational experience than a public school teacher?  Tell me how the high cost of Day care couldn't be allocated to providing a tutor for a child?

And that is that.

As to the rest...no.  Feel free to do your own research.  You don't care....that's all that needs to be said.

[Sovereign Nation]

(03-13-2016, 05:45 PM)GMDino Wrote: SN I figured you for the type who wants Christian values in America.  If not I apologize.  I did not mean to pigeon hole you into always being moral, but merely to infer that being moral means caring and taking care of those who need it most. 

Carrying for the least among us is paramount to the Christian.  Or at least it was.

I guess you can assume what I do and do not do for the poor.  i was raised to not make a big deal about charity.  (Another Christian thing I was taught.)  I have no reason to prove to you or anyone anything I do.   

But also remember Aesop wasn't talking about the Christian god.  So if you want Zeus or Herculese to help ya I guess there is that.  

Yet, you like to point out that we are "not a Christian Country".  So do you want to live in a Christian Country or do you want to live in a Separation of Church and state country?

Actually loving God is paramount to the Christian belief.  You do help others as much as you can and even give till you have nothing left to give.  However that is a choice a Christian must make for themselves.  It isn't very sincere if you are forced into giving.  Charity isn't at the point of a gun, my friend.

I am not asking you to prove anything about what you are doing.  Just pointing out that when a person has a weak argument and they are conditioned to Marxist thinking, they will usually try to argue that they are more superior in their morality by trying to paint the other person as a hypocrite.  You do this by bringing up my Christian Values (which wasn't mentioned in this thread until YOU did it) and then claiming that I must not have any because I don't care about "least among us", when I never said that. 

I only said that other people's children aren't mine to worry about.  So I don't really care if a Single parent can't afford a private tutor.  That single parent can seek help if they want to and it is up to the people they are asking the help from to provide it.  I don't care if a house that has 2 working parents can't afford a tutor because they are paying for the high cost of Daycare.

That has nothing to do with my belief system.  Yet you were very quick to try and use my belief system as a weapon against me.  That is so you, that I had to remind Lucie that you are not actually better than that.

As to Aesop's fables, the lesson transcends the origins.  Truth is truth.

[Sovereign Nation]

(03-13-2016, 06:03 PM)GMDino Wrote: And that is that.

As to the rest...no.  Feel free to do your own research.  You don't care....that's all that needs to be said.

It is a shame.  Here you have the perfect opportunity to educate us simple folk on the complexities of this issue, yet you seek us to do our own research.

I have done my own research and I have yet to find how people could spend so much for day care but not be able to afford a private tutor.  I have also not seen how a public teacher is somehow better than a private one.

So based off of my own research, I find your claim to be false.  Maybe you could continue educating me on how to be a Christian.

[StLucieBengal]

(03-13-2016, 05:39 PM)GMDino Wrote:





See when someone says "I don't care" that is generally what I take it to mean.

Then when they later add some sort of qualifier they can deny what they said.

See?


Back to the topic of education if someone feels that somehow this country would be better off by having each household teach their own children I wish you good luck with that.

If you think a tutor would do the same as day care you also don't understand what a teacher does.

But please carry on with this line of thought.  I'll be thrilled to see how else we can separate the rich and the poor to make America great again.

Yes he doesn't care for excuses and how people do not prioritize education for their children.

[BmorePat87]

An issue we have been having with math is that kids will be taught at their instructional level in elementary school. That means, if a 5th grader is on a 3rd grade level, he is being taught 3rd grade math.

That isn't what happens in middle school. As soon as they're in 6th grade, they're learning 6th grade math. So you've now lost some crucial years. This then continues as they come to us in high school and are lost.

[BmorePat87]

The issue of paying for your own child's schooling has been brought up here before. It costs a lot more than what the average person is paying in taxes towards education. That's why taxes exist. We all share the cost of essential services provided by the government, even if we do not use them.

If you required everyone to privately fund their child's education, our country would regress. Most localities fund education with property taxes and many low income individuals do not pay property taxes as they tend to rent. This would be an additional expense that they would be facing every year based on the number of children they have. The average cost for private schools is nearly $8,000 a kid.

Would there be cheaper options? Sure, but how good would those options be? As it currently stands, the average private school isn't all that different from public school. What will a $2,000 a year school look like?

If you like the idea of millions of kids just not getting an education, hey, good for you. I don't look forward to the inevitable rise in unemployment and crime, nor the costs associated with either.