Evangelical Magazine Supports Impeachment and Removal

[GMDino]

Orange man loses mind over it. 


https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2019/december-web-only/trump-should-be-removed-from-office.html

Quote:VIEWS 
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EDITORIAL

Trump Should Be Removed from Office
It’s time to say what we said 20 years ago when a president’s character was revealed for what it was.
MARK GALLIDECEMBER 19, 2019



In our founding documents, Billy Graham explains that Christianity Today will help evangelical Christians interpret the news in a manner that reflects their faith. The impeachment of Donald Trump is a significant event in the story of our republic. It requires comment.


The typical CT approach is to stay above the fray and allow Christians with different political convictions to make their arguments in the public square, to encourage all to pursue justice according to their convictions and treat their political opposition as charitably as possible. We want CT to be a place that welcomes Christians from across the political spectrum, and reminds everyone that politics is not the end and purpose of our being. We take pride in the fact, for instance, that politics does not dominate our homepage.


That said, we do feel it necessary from time to time to make our own opinions on political matters clear—always, as Graham encouraged us, doing so with both conviction and love. We love and pray for our president, as we love and pray for leaders (as well as ordinary citizens) on both sides of the political aisle.


Let’s grant this to the president: The Democrats have had it out for him from day one, and therefore nearly everything they do is under a cloud of partisan suspicion. This has led many to suspect not only motives but facts in these recent impeachment hearings. And, no, Mr. Trump did not have a serious opportunity to offer his side of the story in the House hearings on impeachment.


But the facts in this instance are unambiguous: The president of the United States attempted to use his political power to coerce a foreign leader to harass and discredit one of the president’s political opponents. That is not only a violation of the Constitution; more importantly, it is profoundly immoral.


The reason many are not shocked about this is that this president has dumbed down the idea of morality in his administration. 
He has hired and fired a number of people who are now convicted criminals. He himself has admitted to immoral actions in business and his relationship with women, about which he remains proud. His Twitter feed alone—with its habitual string of mischaracterizations, lies, and slanders—is a near perfect example of a human being who is morally lost and confused.
Trump’s evangelical supporters have pointed to his Supreme Court nominees, his defense of religious liberty, and his stewardship of the economy, among other things, as achievements that justify their support of the president. We believe the impeachment hearings have made it absolutely clear, in a way the Mueller investigation did not, that President Trump has abused his authority for personal gain and betrayed his constitutional oath. The impeachment hearings have illuminated the president’s moral deficiencies for all to see. This damages the institution of the presidency, damages the reputation of our country, and damages both the spirit and the future of our people. None of the president’s positives can balance the moral and political danger we face under a leader of such grossly immoral character.


This concern for the character of our national leader is not new in CT. In 1998, we wrote this:

Quote:The President's failure to tell the truth—even when cornered—rips at the fabric of the nation. This is not a private affair. For above all, social intercourse is built on a presumption of trust: trust that the milk your grocer sells you is wholesome and pure; trust that the money you put in your bank can be taken out of the bank; trust that your babysitter, firefighters, clergy, and ambulance drivers will all do their best. And while politicians are notorious for breaking campaign promises, while in office they have a fundamental obligation to uphold our trust in them and to live by the law.

And this:

Quote:Unsavory dealings and immoral acts by the President and those close to him have rendered this administration morally unable to lead.

Unfortunately, the words that we applied to Mr. Clinton 20 years ago apply almost perfectly to our current president. Whether Mr. Trump should be removed from office by the Senate or by popular vote next election—that is a matter of prudential judgment. That he should be removed, we believe, is not a matter of partisan loyalties but loyalty to the Creator of the Ten Commandments.



To the many evangelicals who continue to support Mr. Trump in spite of his blackened moral record, we might say this: Remember who you are and whom you serve. Consider how your justification of Mr. Trump influences your witness to your Lord and Savior. Consider what an unbelieving world will say if you continue to brush off Mr. Trump’s immoral words and behavior in the cause of political expediency. If we don’t reverse course now, will anyone take anything we say about justice and righteousness with any seriousness for decades to come? Can we say with a straight face that abortion is a great evil that cannot be tolerated and, with the same straight face, say that the bent and broken character of our nation’s leader doesn’t really matter in the end?


We have reserved judgment on Mr. Trump for years now. Some have criticized us for our reserve. But when it comes to condemning the behavior of another, patient charity must come first. So we have done our best to give evangelical Trump supporters their due, to try to understand their point of view, to see the prudential nature of so many political decisions they have made regarding Mr. Trump. To use an old cliché, it’s time to call a spade a spade, to say that no matter how many hands we win in this political poker game, we are playing with a stacked deck of gross immorality and ethical incompetence. And just when we think it’s time to push all our chips to the center of the table, that’s when the whole game will come crashing down. 


It will crash down on the reputation of evangelical religion and on the world’s understanding of the gospel. And it will come crashing down on a nation of men and women whose welfare is also our concern.

Mark Galli is editor in chief of Christianity Today.

They will certainly (for me) never live down their undying support while this completely immoral "man" was running for and acting as POTUS, but that this even pushed THEM over the line is a bit of a shock.

DJT didn't take it well after someone must have read it to him last night:

....have a Radical Left nonbeliever, who wants to take your religion & your guns, than Donald Trump as your President. No President has done more for the Evangelical community, and it’s not even close. You’ll not get anything from those Dems on stage. I won’t be reading ET again!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) December 20, 2019

I believe those well known "progressives" did not respond yet...nor did ET. 

[jj22]

It's about time Christians stand up to this false prophet. He's not worth the damnation so many are headed towards for pushing him as a moral compass these last 3 years.

[*Nately120*]

(12-20-2019, 11:11 AM)jj22 Wrote: It's about time Christians stand up to this false prophet. He's not worth the damnation so many are headed towards for pushing him as a moral compass these last 3 years.

Yes but god works through imperfect people...well, as long as they are imperfect ultra-rich white neo-conservative men. Ain't no way god worked his way through that imperfect ass Obamao.

God works through imperfect people like Trump, but lord knows if Elizabeth Warren wins the election hain't no evangelicals going to be comforted by the notion that god is going to work through her. Well, maybe some will...I'm just avoiding work here.

[Benton]

It's getting weirder and weirder.

On Facebook last night I was cruising through some comments and a lady (her profile said she was a devoted Christian) was telling a church pastor he didn't have the right to judge after he said Trump wasn't a Christian (which, clearly, Trump isn't even trying to be Christ-like).

Add in tensions already brewing in some areas, like the UMC's fear of not being so united following their recent vote not to be open to homosexual clergy or marriages, and it seems more and more like there's going to be a schism between evangelicals and Christians.

[*bfine32*]

(12-20-2019, 04:46 PM)Benton Wrote: It's getting weirder and weirder.

On Facebook last night I was cruising through some comments and a lady (her profile said she was a devoted Christian) was telling a church pastor he didn't have the right to judge after he said Trump wasn't a Christian (which, clearly, Trump isn't even trying to be Christ-like).

Add in tensions already brewing in some areas, like the UMC's fear of not being so united following their recent vote not to be open to homosexual clergy or marriages, and it seems more and more like there's going to be a schism between evangelicals and Christians.

I'd tend to agree with the lady on Facebook. I'd be curious to know the denomination of the pastor that made such an assertion.

As to the OP: Dude's entitled to his opinion, but is he saying Trump should be removed because he is not religious?

[GMDino]

(12-20-2019, 04:48 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'd tend to agree with the lady on Facebook. I'd be curious to know the denomination of the pastor that made such an assertion.

As to the OP: Dude's entitled to his opinion, but is he saying Trump should be removed because he is not religious?

I'd assume the Pastor simply looked at what Trump does and has done for his entire public life and listened to the the words he says and reads what DJT tweets.  That's probably enough. 

As to your question: Read the article.  The "dude" explains himself quite clearly.

[*bfine32*]

(12-20-2019, 04:55 PM)GMDino Wrote: I'd assume the Pastor simply looked at what Trump does and has done for his entire public life and listened to the the words he says and reads what DJT tweets.  That's probably enough. 

As to your question: Read the article.  The "dude" explains himself quite clearly.

As to the former: In my teachings it runs a little different than the superficial; that's why I was curious as to his/her denomination.

As to the latter: Can't you just save me time and tell me if the dude was him removed because of religion?

[GMDino]

(12-20-2019, 05:02 PM)bfine32 Wrote: As to the former: In my teachings it runs a little different than the superficial; that's why I was curious as to his/her denomination.

As to the latter: Can't you just save me time and tell me if the dude was him removed because of religion?

Point 1: If it walks like a duck and acts like a duck and quacks like a duck you can still pray that it will turn into a horse but...

Point 2: No.  For once you read and learn and then tell us what you think instead of question after question.  The entire article is there.  In the time it has taken you to make multiple posts claiming your superior intellect and amusement at everyone else you could have read it.  If you were truly interested in the discussion and not just interested in telling us what a good "christian" you are thanks to your "teachings". 

[GMDino]

By "religion itself" I assume he doesn't mean anything other than Jewish and Christian.

I guess the magazine, “Christianity Today,” is looking for Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders, or those of the socialist/communist bent, to guard their religion. How about Sleepy Joe? The fact is, no President has ever done what I have done for Evangelicals, or religion itself!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) December 20, 2019

[Mike M (the other one)]

And when the Impeachment attempt fails, those same guys will reverse their own morals and say God must be on Trumps side.

Sorry, I'm just not a huge fan of organized religion. Really if Trump claims to be a Christian, then who on the face of this planet has any right to judge him? isn't that considered a big no-no by the book? Not only that, but anyone that judges someone else, 9/10 times probably needs to take a look in the mirror first.

[Benton]

(12-20-2019, 04:48 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'd tend to agree with the lady on Facebook. I'd be curious to know the denomination of the pastor that made such an assertion.

As to the OP: Dude's entitled to his opinion, but is he saying Trump should be removed because he is not religious?

Baptist, if I remember right. I don't know the guy very well, outside of Facebook friend of a friend.

And I'm guessing this is going to garner the response of "that's not what I meant" but that that's your first response says a lot about my concerns over Christianity today. Of he's a Christian, it shouldnt really matter the denomination. A brother should be a brother. 

And, no, he was saying Trump shouldn't be called a Christian. And I'd agree. Nobody's perfect, but the idea is (basically) to try. Make an effort. Be nice to people. Promote charity (instead of stealing from it). Value peace. Offer love. Trump is as much a Buddhist as he is a Christian.

Just calling yourself something and then acting opposite of it doesn't mean you're the thing you're calling yourself. It's like saying "I'm a vegetarian who loves a good steak or some smoked ribs.... Hey, nobody's perfect, but I'm still a vegetarian."

[GMDino]

(12-20-2019, 05:40 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: And when the Impeachment attempt fails, those same guys will reverse their own morals and say God must be on Trumps side.

Sorry, I'm just not a huge fan of organized religion. Really if Trump claims to be a Christian, then who on the face of this planet has any right to judge him? isn't that considered a big no-no by the book? Not only that, but anyone that judges someone else, 9/10 times probably needs to take a look in the mirror first.

This is rich.

Eight years of "Obama isn't a REAL Christian" from the right and when one of their own is elected who has broken every commandment (He's paid for an abortion (killing) right?  I don't know.  I'm just asking.  I've heard from people) NOW it's "Judge not lest ye be judged"?

It is one thing to pray that DJT will "change" it's another to simply close your eyes and deny what he is.  And he is not Christian in thought, word or deed.

[Benton]

(12-20-2019, 05:40 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: And when the Impeachment attempt fails, those same guys will reverse their own morals and say God must be on Trumps side.

Sorry, I'm just not a huge fan of organized religion. Really if Trump claims to be a Christian, then who on the face of this planet has any right to judge him? isn't that considered a big no-no by the book? Not only that, but anyone that judges someone else, 9/10 times probably needs to take a look in the mirror first.

Religion is a personal thing and open to a lot of interpretation. With that, there's a lot of gray area where people shouldn't 'cast stones' over how someone worships.

On the other hand, who? Christians, that's who.

How many times in this forum has someone posted "Muslims are bad, and they're all bad because other Muslims dont make them change."

Well, they're not all bad, just like all Christians aren't bad when a fringe group like wadesboro does dumb stuff that's not very Christ-like. But at the same time, it's up to other Christians to make sure they don't let the train go off the track by being an example of what a Christian is. And pointing out what it isn't.

Christianity isn't paying porn stars for sex, advocating sexual assault, stealing from charities, boasting about cheating on taxes, encouraging violence, lying or the rest of what we've seen the last four years. Most of which is recent behavior.

[*bfine32*]

(12-20-2019, 05:41 PM)Benton Wrote: Baptist, if I remember right. I don't know the guy very well, outside of Facebook friend of a friend.

And I'm guessing this is going to garner the response of "that's not what I meant" but that that's your first response says a lot about my concerns over Christianity today. Of he's a Christian, it shouldnt really matter the denomination. A brother should be a brother. 

And, no, he was saying Trump shouldn't be called a Christian. And I'd agree. Nobody's perfect, but the idea is (basically) to try. Make an effort. Be nice to people. Promote charity (instead of stealing from it). Value peace. Offer love. Trump is as much a Buddhist as he is a Christian.

Just calling yourself something and then acting opposite of it doesn't mean you're the thing you're calling yourself. It's like saying "I'm a vegetarian who loves a good steak or some smoked ribs.... Hey, nobody's perfect, but I'm still a vegetarian."

That's exactly what I said and exactly what I meant. Of course my concern is your considering the woman "weird" for calling the Pastor to task. 

Of course a brother should be a brother; however, I'm not one to call someone who professes to be a Christian, not a Christian. I'll leave that to your Facebook Pastor.

Perhaps the next time you interact with the Facebook Pastor you could explain to him that the Christian should be reborn every day and not to cast judgement. But that's just me. 

[*bfine32*]

(12-20-2019, 05:32 PM)GMDino Wrote: Point 1: If it walks like a duck and acts like a duck and quacks like a duck you can still pray that it will turn into a horse but...

Point 2: No.  For once you read and learn and then tell us what you think instead of question after question.  The entire article is there.  In the time it has taken you to make multiple posts claiming your superior intellect and amusement at everyone else you could have read it.  If you were truly interested in the discussion and not just interested in telling us what a good "christian" you are thanks to your "teachings". 

Absolutely no personal attack there. Also WTF did I tell anyone what a good christian"I am. Nor do I know why you felt compelled to put it in quotes. I have 0 idea why you're allowed to act as you do in this forum. OK, that's not being honest: I know exactly why you're allowed to.

As to the first point: I do not care what it walks like. We live by faith, not by sight. 

[*bfine32*]

(12-20-2019, 05:50 PM)Benton Wrote: Religion is a personal thing and open to a lot of interpretation. With that, there's a lot of gray area where people shouldn't 'cast stones' over how someone worships.

On the other hand, who? Christians, that's who.

How many times in this forum has someone posted "Muslims are bad, and they're all bad because other Muslims dont make them change."

Well, they're not all bad, just like all Christians aren't bad when a fringe group like wadesboro does dumb stuff that's not very Christ-like. But at the same time, it's up to other Christians to make sure they don't let the train go off the track by being an example of what a Christian is. And pointing out what it isn't.

Christianity isn't paying porn stars for sex, advocating sexual assault, stealing from charities, boasting about cheating on taxes, encouraging violence, lying or the rest of what we've seen the last four years. Most of which is recent behavior.

Did you really just say Christian are responsible to judge other Christians? And then actually do it.

[CJD]

Quote:...a Radical Left nonbeliever, who wants to take your religion & your guns, than Donald Trump as your President.

Who...
...Who is running for President that wants to "take your religion?"

[Dill]

(12-20-2019, 10:38 AM)GMDino Wrote: This concern for the character of our national leader is not new in CT. In 1998, we wrote this:

Quote:Quote:The President's failure to tell the truth—even when cornered—rips at the fabric of the nation. This is not a private affair. For above all, social intercourse is built on a presumption of trust: trust that the milk your grocer sells you is wholesome and pure; trust that the money you put in your bank can be taken out of the bank; trust that your babysitter, firefighters, clergy, and ambulance drivers will all do their best. And while politicians are notorious for breaking campaign promises, while in office they have a fundamental obligation to uphold our trust in them and to live by the law.

LOL Reverse Whattaboutism. 

Admirable.

[Dill]

(12-20-2019, 05:41 PM)Benton Wrote: Baptist, if I remember right. I don't know the guy very well, outside of Facebook friend of a friend.

And I'm guessing this is going to garner the response of "that's not what I meant" but that that's your first response says a lot about my concerns over Christianity today. Of he's a Christian, it shouldnt really matter the denomination. A brother should be a brother. 

And, no, he was saying Trump shouldn't be called a Christian. And I'd agree. Nobody's perfect, but the idea is (basically) to try. Make an effort. Be nice to people. Promote charity (instead of stealing from it). Value peace. Offer love. Trump is as much a Buddhist as he is a Christian.

Just calling yourself something and then acting opposite of it doesn't mean you're the thing you're calling yourself. It's like saying "I'm a vegetarian who loves a good steak or some smoked ribs.... Hey, nobody's perfect, but I'm still a vegetarian."

Well said, especially the bolded.

Also, virtually every church invests in defining what Christians are or are not. If they did not, how could they proselytize or continue generation after generation?

Most Christians of whatever denomination subscribe to the belief that Jesus was son of God and the way back to Him. Someone who says Mohammad was the final prophet of that God is not a Christian.

Most Christians also agree that Jesus was a model for how people should behave; and that behavior is prescribed in teachings and parables.

Most also agree that there is some point in holding people who claim to be Christian accountable for the claim in one way or another. That's had a bad flavor since the Inquisition, but it is difficult to promote and maintain an identity group without doing so to some degree. When I was in high school, a pastor in a nearby city was voted out by his congregation because he had an affair. They did not burn him to death or claim he was not a Christian, but they did find him unfit to lead, because a pastor is supposed to model Christianity. The congregation assumed they could tell what was Christian behavior and what was not.

The editors of CT are (belatedly) doing rather the same thing. They assume they know what Christian behavior is and is not. And they assume they know the consequences of confusing or ignoring what is or is not, the moral risk of Christians believing they already know which evil men can be tolerated as God's instruments without compromising God's teachings.

[*bfine32*]

(12-21-2019, 12:58 AM)Dill Wrote: Well said, especially the bolded.

Also, virtually every church invests in defining what Christians are or are not. If they did not, how could they proselytize or continue generation after generation?

Most Christians of whatever denomination subscribe to the belief that Jesus was son of God and the way back to Him. Someone who says Mohammad was the final prophet of that God is not a Christian.

Most Christians also agree that Jesus was a model for how people should behave; and that behavior is prescribed in teachings and parables.

Most also agree that there is some point in holding people who claim to be Christian accountable for the claim in one way or another. That's had a bad flavor since the Inquisition, but it is difficult to promote and maintain an identity group without doing so to some degree. When I was in high school, a pastor in a nearby city was voted out by his congregation because he had an affair. They did not burn him to death or claim he was not a Christian, but they did find him unfit to lead, because a pastor is supposed to model Christianity. The congregation assumed they could tell what was Christian behavior and what was not.

The editors of CT are (belatedly) doing rather the same thing. They assume they know what Christian behavior is and is not. And they assume they know the consequences of confusing or ignoring what is or is not, the moral risk of Christians believing they already know which evil men can be tolerated as God's instruments without compromising God's teachings.

Let's just go with Benton and you have heard different teachings than I. I've heard endless sermons on what makes a good christian and how we should walk in the light; but I've never heard a teaching on how man should judge man.

Was the prostitute that Jesus stopped the stoning of deserving of man's judgement? Apparently Benton and you have heard teachings that lead you to believe that. I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm just saying we've been taught differently and I pray your personally relationship with Christ is sound.