Evangelical Magazine Supports Impeachment and Removal

[Vas Deferens]

Get all these nut jobs out of my way. We’re trying to make scientific progress to save the ***** earth while some numb nuts who don’t believe in math spout rehashed allegories at us like they have a ***** seat at the adult table. You want to be willfully ignorant, fine. But don’t be upset when your opinion is downgraded for being objectively valueless.

**** the holidays too.

[Dill]

(12-21-2019, 01:31 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Let's just go with Benton and you have heard different teachings than I. I've heard endless sermons on what makes a good christian and how we should walk in the light; but I've never heard a teaching on how man should judge man.

Was the prostitute that Jesus stopped the stoning of deserving of man's judgement? Apparently Benton and you have heard teachings that lead you to believe that. I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm just saying we've been taught differently and I pray your personally relationship with Christ is sound.  

Er, I am not a Christian. I don't think I have a personal relation with a mortal human who died almost 2000 years ago.

Nevertheless, I have heard/read many teachings purported to be Christian and which warn of "false prophets," and that entails judging people who claim to be Christian to be not really Christian.

One fellow named Paul did that frequently for Christians in the early churches, concerned to know who was really Christian and who was not.  He was not shy of judging other Christians' behavior--even to the "destruction of the flesh."  From 1st Corinthians:

5 It is actually reported that there is sexual immoralityam among you, and the kind of sexual immorality that is not even toleratedD among the Gentilesan—a man is sleeping with his father’s wife.ao 2 And you are arrogant! Shouldn’t you be filled with griefap and remove from your congregation the one who did this? 3 Even though I am absent in the body, I am present in spirit.aq As one who is present with you in this way, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who has been doing such a thing. 4 When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus, and I am with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 hand that one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh,ar so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord. ashttps://biblia.com/books/csb/1Co4.21

Here Paul is pretty clear on "how man should judge man."

In any case, my points were neither an interpretation of nor a defense of proper Christianity, but observations on what is necessary to the maintenance of any group identity. 

[Benton]

(12-20-2019, 08:02 PM)bfine32 Wrote: That's exactly what I said and exactly what I meant. Of course my concern is your considering the woman "weird" for calling the Pastor to task. 

Of course a brother should be a brother; however, I'm not one to call someone who professes to be a Christian, not a Christian. I'll leave that to your Facebook Pastor.

Perhaps the next time you interact with the Facebook Pastor you could explain to him that the Christian should be reborn every day and not to cast judgement. But that's just me. 

Well... Actually, I didn't say the woman was weird. I said it's getting weird. That's what I said and what I meant. I don't know if or to what extent the woman is weird.

To the second graf: maybe you should. If Christians start holding Christians to a Christian standard, maybe they'll act like Christians again.

To  the last: eh, we all sin. We're all given a chance to have remorse or make amends. I don't see that from trump.

But it does beg the question: are you giving the same pass to everyone? If trump fits your definition of a Christian because he says he is one, are you as accepting of homosexual Christians? An abortion doctor? Drug addict? 

[Benton]

(12-20-2019, 08:11 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Did you really just say Christian are responsible to judge other Christians? And then actually do it.

Yup. It's being a good neighbor.

If their neighbor's car won't start, most people will offer a hand. Spiritually and emotionally it's no different. If their neighbor says he's a Christian while daily cheating on his wife, stealing from his boss, snorting a line for breakfast and making fun of dolphins, then he's not acting like a Christian. So a person has two options: they can encourage the guy to act like one, or they can continue to let him ruin his own chance at salvation and possibly others.

And that's something I think a lot of evangelicals are forgetting. To people outside the faith, one of the figureheads of evangelicals (trump) behaves consistently in opposition of how  Jesus asked his disciples to behave. For anyone who isnt a Christian and watching the recent political attempts to compare trump to Jesus, the desire to become a moral scumbag probably isn't appealing.

[GMDino]

(12-20-2019, 08:56 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Who...
...Who is running for President that wants to "take your religion?"

Nobody.  At least no one on the left.  The right and the gop would love to take away all religions except for Christians and Jews. 

[*bfine32*]

Benton Wrote:Well... Actually, I didn't say the woman was weird. I said it's getting weird. That's what I said and what I meant. I don't know if or to what extent the woman is weird.

Okay, you didn’t say the woman was weird, you just consider her thoughts to be weird

Quote:To the second graf: maybe you should. If Christians start holding Christians to a Christian standard, maybe they'll act like Christians again.

Then again maybe you just want them to “act” like your interpretation of a Christian (more on this later)

Quote:To  the last: eh, we all sin. We're all given a chance to have remorse or make amends. I don't see that from trump.

He’s not required to show it (be obedient) to you

Quote:But it does beg the question: are you giving the same pass to everyone? If trump fits your definition of a Christian because he says he is one, are you as accepting of homosexual Christians? An abortion doctor? Drug addict?

It would be my definition of a Christian only if I judged (you know the type). Of course I’m accepting of all those people you suggest; however, I see you have judged me. Anyone who follows this forum a little bit should know the respect I have for Mayor Pete and his faith.

Benton Wrote:Yup. It's being a good neighbor.

If their neighbor's car won't start, most people will offer a hand. Spiritually and emotionally it's no different. If their neighbor says he's a Christian while daily cheating on his wife, stealing from his boss, snorting a line for breakfast and making fun of dolphins, then he's not acting like a Christian. So a person has two options: they can encourage the guy to act like one, or they can continue to let him ruin his own chance at salvation and possibly others.

I have o idea where you got that I wouldn't encourage anyone; it’s my Christian duty to encourage. I simply said I would not judge them.

Quote:And that's something I think a lot of evangelicals are forgetting. To people outside the faith, one of the figureheads of evangelicals (trump) behaves consistently in opposition of how  Jesus asked his disciples to behave. For anyone who isnt a Christian and watching the recent political attempts to compare trump to Jesus, the desire to become a moral scumbag probably isn't appealing.

Or maybe that non-Christian sees Trump as a flawed human and thinks “Well I don’t have to meet Benton’s or the Facebook Pastor’s definition of a Christian to give my life to Christ. I can turn myself over to Christ and establish a personal relationship with God”

Trump is not perfect, far from it, but I'm not equipped to handle the immense responsibility of judging whether or not he's a Christian. I can simply pray he leads us down the right path and hope he has a personal relationship with his savior. 

[fredtoast]

Trump is the President of the United States. This makes him the most famous Christian on the planet. Many people who are no exposed to Christians in their homes will see Trump as the most recognized example of Christian behavior.

If I was a Christian I believe I would be taking some positive steps in damage control instead of just stepping back and saying "Who am I to judge?". If Christians read the Bible they will see that God gave them some pretty clear rules to follow and "judge by".

[*bfine32*]

(12-23-2019, 03:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Trump is the President of the United States.  This makes him the most famous Christian on the planet.  Many people who are no exposed to Christians in their homes will see Trump as the most recognized example of Christian behavior.

If I was a Christian I believe I would be taking some positive steps in damage control instead of just stepping back and saying "Who am I to judge?".  If Christians read the Bible they will see that God gave them some pretty clear rules to follow and "judge by".

I've read the Bible, but being as I'm not Jewish; I tend to focus on the New Testament and it's quite clear on who does the judging. But as I've always said: Want to know how a Christian should act: Ask an atheist. 

I'd venture to say that any exposure a person gets to Christianity is a good thing. 

[Dill]

(12-21-2019, 03:49 AM)Benton Wrote: And that's something I think a lot of evangelicals are forgetting. To people outside the faith, one of the figureheads of evangelicals (trump) behaves consistently in opposition of how  Jesus asked his disciples to behave. For anyone who isnt a Christian and watching the recent political attempts to compare trump to Jesus, the desire to become a moral scumbag probably isn't appealing.

Some, at least, are remembering it now. Hence the CT editorial.

To use an old cliché, it’s time to call a spade a spade, to say that no matter how many hands we win in this political poker game, we are playing with a stacked deck of gross immorality and ethical incompetence. And just when we think it’s time to push all our chips to the center of the table, that’s when the whole game will come crashing down. It will crash down on the reputation of evangelical religion and on the world’s understanding of the gospel. And it will come crashing down on a nation of men and women whose welfare is also our concern.

Most Christians, especially those who read the NT, are quite prepared to define what behavior is Christian and what is not. How could they teach it if they could not? They recognize there is no ethical or debate advantage in claiming not to  "judge" who really is Christian and who is not, as Christians have been doing exactly that for 2000 years. My parents would refuse to "judge" other Christians, or deny their Christianity--to a degree.  ("We don't say Catholics aren't Christian" they would say.) But neither they nor their friends would claim total (and crippling) inability to decide whether others were really Christian or not. I remember perusing Christian bookstores with all manner of books and pamphlets explaining why this or that sect (e.g., Mormons) were not really Christian.

I suspect that in many Evangelical families, it has become more and more difficult for the father/husband to explain to his wife and children why they have to uphold standards that their political champion trashes. The danger of claiming "god uses evil to do good" to justify short-term political advantage is becoming more and more apparent. Following someone as immoral and "ethically incompetent" as Trump while presuming not to judge his Christianity is to eviscerate Christianity of any ethical force claimed for it.

[*bfine32*]

(12-21-2019, 02:21 AM)Dill Wrote: Er, I am not a Christian. I don't think I have a personal relation with a mortal human who died almost 2000 years ago.

(12-23-2019, 04:42 PM)bfine32 Wrote: But as I've always said: Want to know how a Christian should act: Ask an atheist. 

Wait for it>>>

(12-23-2019, 05:18 PM)Dill Wrote: Some, at least, are remembering it now. Hence the CT editorial.

To use an old cliché, it’s time to call a spade a spade, to say that no matter how many hands we win in this political poker game, we are playing with a stacked deck of gross immorality and ethical incompetence. And just when we think it’s time to push all our chips to the center of the table, that’s when the whole game will come crashing down. It will crash down on the reputation of evangelical religion and on the world’s understanding of the gospel. And it will come crashing down on a nation of men and women whose welfare is also our concern.

Most Christians, especially those who read the NT, are quite prepared to define what behavior is Christian and what is not. How could they teach it if they could not? They recognize there is no ethical or debate advantage in claiming not to  "judge" who really is Christian and who is not, as Christians have been doing exactly that for 2000 years. My parents would refuse to "judge" other Christians, or deny their Christianity--to a degree.  ("We don't say Catholics aren't Christian" they would say.) But neither they nor their friends would claim total (and crippling) inability to decide whether others were really Christian or not. I remember perusing Christian bookstores with all manner of books and pamphlets explaining why this or that sect (e.g., Mormons) were not really Christian.

I suspect that in many Evangelical families, it has become more and more difficult for the father/husband to explain to his wife and children why they have to uphold standards that their political champion trashes. The danger of claiming "god uses evil to do good" to justify short-term political advantage is becoming more and more apparent. Following someone as immoral and "ethically incompetent" as Trump while presuming not to judge his Christianity is to eviscerate Christianity of any ethical force claimed for it.

To be honest I can understand you, Fred and the rest of the non-believers stating Christians should judge whether others are Christians or not; hell I even get why you non-believers think you can judge (even though you've bastardized it into Christian behavior). It saddens me that you do not understand the forgiveness and salvation Jesus brought, but you simply understand the laws of Moses. 

But the reference is simple: Who are you to judge if you are with sin? Jesus was without sin and still told folks he's not to judge. 

[*Nately120*]

Trump doesn't seem like a christian to me, but I was raised Catholic so there wasn't a lot of the "what's in it for me?" aspects that are talked about and glorified in other sects of Christianity. These days I've been daydreaming through Methodist services with my girlfriend and I'm always a bit struck by how the songs are all about how we are all on our way to this pleasure dome of awesomeness up in the sky. There is so much less confessing, less focus on death and kneeling, and supplication. It's pretty focused on how great you're going to have it because Jesus is your guy.

That's fine, and it certainly seems more marketable than the slog I went through for the first 20 years of my life. I was convinced that church was supposed to be boring and a genuine trial to go through, which is why I was practically baffled when I saw baptists living it up and protestants building their mega churches and talking about how Jesus and his rope belt were ecstatic you were buying another Lexus. Honestly, I hope Trump and Jesus are best pals because that makes me that much more confident that I can get me some of that swag.

[Benton]

(12-21-2019, 01:31 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Let's just go with Benton and you have heard different teachings than I. I've heard endless sermons on what makes a good christian and how we should walk in the light; but I've never heard a teaching on how man should judge man.

Was the prostitute that Jesus stopped the stoning of deserving of man's judgement? Apparently Benton and you have heard teachings that lead you to believe that. I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm just saying we've been taught differently and I pray your personally relationship with Christ is sound.  

Not what I said. We all sin. The issue is comparing someone to Christ who exhibits the opposite behavior. That might mislead Christians to behaving badly. Sorry for your confusion .

[*bfine32*]

(12-23-2019, 11:30 PM)Benton Wrote: Not what I said. We all sin. The issue is comparing someone to Christ who exhibits the opposite behavior. That might mislead Christians to behaving badly. Sorry for your confusion .

Look who came up with "not what I said".

It's exactly what you said. Mike asked who is to judge if Trump is a Christian and you said other Christians. I just found that to go against everything I believe as a Christian. Nowhere have I tried to compare anyone to Christ; nor have I mentioned how a Christian should act (that's your gig). I have 0 idea why you'd make that up.

But I will confess: you have confused me. 

[Dill]

(12-23-2019, 07:56 PM)bfine32 Wrote: To be honest I can understand you, Fred and the rest of the non-believers stating Christians should judge whether others are Christians or not; hell I even get why you non-believers think you can judge (even though you've bastardized it into Christian behavior). It saddens me that you do not understand the forgiveness and salvation Jesus brought, but you simply understand the laws of Moses. 

But the reference is simple: Who are you to judge if you are with sin? Jesus was without sin and still told folks he's not to judge. 

The question I spoke to was whether Christians get to, or do, judge other Christians.

You claim you've "not been taught to judge." If Benton and I think Christians are taught to judge, we must have heard "different teachings."

Indeed. So I have presented some evidence that they do from the Bible, a historical allusion to the Inquisition, and personal anecdotes. Then there is the CT editorial which contains a great deal of Christian on Christian judgment." Christians judge other Christians and non Christians all the time, and preach sermons and write books on how to do it.

It is from Christians that one learns this--not Atheists, who have no interest in determining who is "really" a Christian any more than in certifying who is a true Hindu.

But you've missed these teachings and Biblical examples Your counter is just that you are sad I don't understand Jesus forgiveness and salvation. 

(12-23-2019, 07:56 PM)bfine32 Wrote: But the reference is simple: Who are you to judge if you are with sin? Jesus was without sin and still told folks he's not to judge. 

I don't think there is such a thing as "sin" so I don't bother judging who is "with" it.  But I do think if a church presents itself as Christian, then someone in it must be able to say what a Christian is or is not, and to teach that in Sunday school and sermons. Perhaps some conflate definitions of Christianity with determinations of who is or who is without this "sin" thing. Could you be doing that in a discussion about Christians who condemn Trump's ugly behavior as un-Christian?

[Dill]

(12-23-2019, 11:49 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Look who came up with "not what I said".

It's exactly what you said. Mike asked who is to judge if Trump is a Christian and you said other Christians. I just found that to go against everything I believe as a Christian. Nowhere have I tried to compare anyone to Christ; nor have I mentioned how a Christian should act (that's your gig). I have 0 idea why you'd make that up.

But I will confess: you have confused me. 

Perhaps he has. 

You are NOT saying that Christians should not judge?

If you not saying that, are you ok with the CT editorial? People, even Christians, can censure others for doing bad things?

Or are you utterly unable to say how a Christian should act?

[Benton]

(12-23-2019, 11:49 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Look who came up with "not what I said".

It's exactly what you said. Mike asked who is to judge if Trump is a Christian and you said other Christians. I just found that to go against everything I believe as a Christian. Nowhere have I tried to compare anyone to Christ; nor have I mentioned how a Christian should act (that's your gig). I have 0 idea why you'd make that up.

But I will confess: you have confused me. 

Yeah... That's not what I said. If you look back I didn't say we should stone prostitutes. 

Or anyone else that sins. 

What I've said is trump doesn't act like a Christian.because he doesn't. And Christians shouldnt be mislead by people acting that way who just call themselves Christians

You're making things up at a trumpian rate.

[*bfine32*]

(12-24-2019, 12:54 AM)Dill Wrote: Perhaps he has. 

You are NOT saying that Christians should not judge?

If you not saying that, are you ok with the CT editorial? People, even Christians, can censure others for doing bad things?

Or are you utterly unable to say how a Christian should act?

Yes, I am utterly unable to say how a Christian should act. I can speak to the guidelines we are given, but at the end of the day; it comes down to 2 things: Do you believe in Christ and have you confessed this publicly. There are many that also say a immersion in water is requited, but I'm not here to debate that. 

As to the article: I've not read it and most likely will not; seems silly really. But I'm not going to assert that the dude that wrote it is or is not a Christian. 

Of course you've bastardized the point debated to such an extent that it has become absurd.

My issue was simply when Benton asserted it's up to Christians to judge if others are Christians. We all have our thoughts on how one should act, but I'm not as equipped to judge as apparently you and Benton are.

I can understand it with you, because you are a confessed atheist and most likely think human judgement is a part of Christianity, but it's not. 

[*bfine32*]

(12-20-2019, 05:40 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: And when the Impeachment attempt fails, those same guys will reverse their own morals and say God must be on Trumps side.

Sorry, I'm just not a huge fan of organized religion. Really if Trump claims to be a Christian, then who on the face of this planet has any right to judge him? isn't that considered a big no-no by the book? Not only that, but anyone that judges someone else, 9/10 times probably needs to take a look in the mirror first.

(12-20-2019, 05:50 PM)Benton Wrote: Religion is a personal thing and open to a lot of interpretation. With that, there's a lot of gray area where people shouldn't 'cast stones' over how someone worships.

On the other hand, who? Christians, that's who.

How many times in this forum has someone posted "Muslims are bad, and they're all bad because other Muslims dont make them change."

Well, they're not all bad, just like all Christians aren't bad when a fringe group like wadesboro does dumb stuff that's not very Christ-like. But at the same time, it's up to other Christians to make sure they don't let the train go off the track by being an example of what a Christian is. And pointing out what it isn't.

Christianity isn't paying porn stars for sex, advocating sexual assault, stealing from charities, boasting about cheating on taxes, encouraging violence, lying or the rest of what we've seen the last four years. Most of which is recent behavior.

(12-23-2019, 11:49 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Look who came up with "not what I said".

It's exactly what you said. Mike asked who is to judge if Trump is a Christian and you said other Christians. I just found that to go against everything I believe as a Christian. Nowhere have I tried to compare anyone to Christ; nor have I mentioned how a Christian should act (that's your gig). I have 0 idea why you'd make that up.

But I will confess: you have confused me. 

(12-24-2019, 02:10 AM)Benton Wrote: Yeah... That's not what I said. If you look back I didn't say we should stone prostitutes. 

Or anyone else that sins. 

What I've said is trump doesn't act like a Christian.because he doesn't. And Christians shouldnt be mislead by people acting that way who just call themselves Christians

You're making things up at a trumpian rate.

It is exactly what you said. I even asked you to clarify if that was what you were saying and you said it was. It has nothing to do with Trump. 

[Benton]

(12-24-2019, 02:25 AM)bfine32 Wrote: It is exactly what you said. I even asked you to clarify if that was what you were saying and you said it was. It has nothing to do with Trump. 

Thanks for quoting to show I didn't say we should stone prostitutes. I'll go ahead and add, I don't think we should stone anyone. Mostly based on beliefs, I'm against the death penalty.

And we were discussing trump and the effort to paint him as a Christian , you brought up prostitutes. If you're concerned about the thread getting off topic, stay on it.

[BakertheBeast]

(12-24-2019, 04:43 AM)Benton Wrote: Thanks for quoting to show I didn't say we should stone prostitutes. I'll go ahead and add, I don't think we should stone anyone. Mostly based on beliefs, I'm against the death penalty.

And we were discussing trump and the effort to paint him as a Christian , you brought up prostitutes. If you're concerned about the thread getting off topic, stay on it.

I think the reason he brought up prostitutes is because Trump being the devout christian he is, has used the services of prostitutes many times thru his marriages and the birth of his children.