Evangelical Magazine Supports Impeachment and Removal

[BakertheBeast]

Most Evangelicans are hypocrites but they aren't stupid. They know Trump is a conman and a turd. They got what they wanted out of him, the supreme court, to ban abortion so they can have 10 kids to a family. They don't need the orangutan anymore.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Matthew 7:15-19

"15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."

I see Trump as a Christian in words only, not in action...at least what I see anyway.

We do not know Trumps heart, he may be a Christian or he may not.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(12-27-2019, 01:40 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Matthew 7:15-19

"15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."

I see Trump as a Christian in words only, not in action...at least what I see anyway.

We do not know Trumps heart, he may be a Christian or he may not.

With a nice Old Testament name like Nebuchadnezzar I figured you would be logical about this — and you were!

Look at Nebuchadnezzar himself at first; pagan, raw, and not so nice to the Jews. God changed Ol’ Neb’s heart and he repented. God effected similar conversions with Isaiah and St. Paul. Remember how Isaiah was first described as a man with unclean lips? Like Nebuchadnezzar, Isaiah, and St. Paul, it is possible Our Lord is in the process of conversion with Donald Trump and I hope and pray this is the case.

Some conversions are almost instantaneous and others take decades. I know the words of St. Paul in his first letter to St. Timothy well: “God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.” (1 Timothy 2:4)

This includes you, me, Donald Trump, and yes, even fans of the Pittsburgh Steelers. Deo Gratias! Thanks be to God.

[*bfine32*]

(12-27-2019, 01:40 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: Matthew 7:15-19

"15Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire."

I see Trump as a Christian in words only, not in action...at least what I see anyway.

We do not know Trumps heart, he may be a Christian or he may not.

I see you get it Neb. Trump very well may be the most evil man to have walked the planet; however, it is not up to man to judge whether he is or is not a Christian. We can point to his actions being counter to our teachings on the path a Christian "should" follow, but we are only evaluating the outward. As I said: we cannot judge whether anyone is or is not a Christian as we are not without sin.

[*bfine32*]

(12-27-2019, 11:30 AM)BakertheBeast Wrote: Most Evangelicans  are hypocrites but they aren't stupid. They know Trump is a conman and a turd. They got what they wanted out of him, the supreme court, to ban abortion so they can have 10 kids to a family. They don't need the orangutan anymore.

Where was I when this happened?

[fredtoast]

(12-27-2019, 03:40 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I see you get it Neb. Trump very well may be the most evil man to have walked the planet; however, it is not up to man to judge whether he is or is not a Christian. We can point to his actions being counter to our teachings on the path a Christian "should" follow, but we are only evaluating the outward. As I said: we cannot judge whether anyone is or is not a Christian as we are not without sin.

Don't Christian believe that you have to ask God for forgiveness before you can become a Christian?

Trump has made it clear that he has never asked God for forgiveness.

Are you really selling out your beliefs to defend your Donald?

[*bfine32*]

(12-27-2019, 03:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Don't Christian believe that you have to ask God for forgiveness before you can become a Christian?

Trump has made it clear that he has never asked God for forgiveness.

Are you really selling out your beliefs to defend your Donald?

I'm not selling out my beliefs nor am I defending Trump. To become a Christian one must ask Christ to wash them of their sins. That's the tidbit Benton left out in my teachings of what it take to be a Christian. I'm aware that Trump stated He's not sure if he has asked Christ for forgiveness (or as you stated: "made it clear") and that leads me to question his understanding, but as I've always said Christianity is personal relationship.

For all we know a humbled Trump hits his knees every night begging forgiveness and then the next morning the sinful Trump may say he's not sure if he ever has. I go by, he confesses to be a Christian; I'll leave up to him and the Lord to determine the judgement. We've all got to stand before him. If trump asked my council or invited me to talk with him I'd explain the need for a Christian to repent and be reborn everyday. but that's my views.

[GMDino]

(12-27-2019, 04:14 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'm not selling out my beliefs nor am I defending Trump. To become a Christian one must ask Christ to wash them of their sins. That's the tidbit Benton left out in my teachings of what it take to be a Christian. I'm aware that Trump stated He's not sure if he has asked Christ for forgiveness (or as you stated: "made it clear") and that leads me to question his understanding, but as I've always said Christianity is personal relationship.

For all we know a humbled Trump hits his knees every night begging forgiveness and then the next morning the sinful Trump may say he's not sure if he ever has. I go by, he confesses to be a Christian; I'll leave up to him and the Lord to determine the judgement. We've all got to stand before him. If trump asked my council or invited me to talk with him I'd explain the need for a Christian to repent and be reborn everyday. but that's my views.

[*bfine32*]

(12-27-2019, 04:55 PM)GMDino Wrote:

Why did you not bold the sinful Trump part as I stated?


Don't answer that everyone knows. Dino logic: If you do not immediately condemn EVERYTHING Trump does, fail to think the worst of him in EVERY situation, and mention anything he does as positive; you are "defending Trump!!"

[GMDino]

(12-27-2019, 05:00 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Why did you not bold the sinful Trump part as I stated?


Don't answer that everyone knows. Dino logic: If you do not immediately condemn EVERYTHING Trump does, fail to think the worst of him in EVERY situation, and mention anything he does as positive; you are "defending Trump!!"

Nah, because all the verbal somersaults being done do not change the fact that DJT has done not one single thing to convince anyone he is a "Christian" but you will give him the benefit of the doubt.

It's very easy to keep your conscience clear when you ignore all the bad deeds, all the bad words and say "we can never know what's in his heart".

History is full of example of religious people looking the other way so they wouldn't "judge".   So live in denial, that's a very religious thing to do while evil is going on.

[*bfine32*]

(12-27-2019, 05:20 PM)GMDino Wrote: Nah, because all the verbal somersaults being done do not change the fact that DJT has done not one single thing to convince anyone he is a "Christian" but you will give him the benefit of the doubt.

It's very easy to keep your conscience clear when you ignore all the bad deeds, all the bad words and say "we can never know what's in his heart".

History is full of example of religious people looking the other way so they wouldn't "judge".   So live in denial, that's a very religious thing to do while evil is going on.

Donald Trump is not the only person I give the "benefit of the doubt" to and i require no one to "convince" me. But I'm most likely irrational because I don't put him in a separate category.

I've ignored nothing. I cannot count the number of times I've called Trump sinful; you most likely just miss them because you choose not to bold them. 

I agree history is full of folks being forgiving of others. Often times without them asking for it. History is also full of man judging man> Often times without them asking for it. 

But as I continue to say: What to know how a Christian should act. Ask an atheist. 

[fredtoast]

(12-27-2019, 05:34 PM)bfine32 Wrote: But as I continue to say: What to know how a Christian should act. Ask an atheist. 

It is a shame, but very telling, that many atheists know more about the Bible that most Christians.

[fredtoast]

(12-27-2019, 04:14 PM)bfine32 Wrote: For all we know a humbled Trump hits his knees every night begging forgiveness and then the next morning the sinful Trump may say he's not sure if he ever has.

And you think that type of behavior would make him a Christian?

Is God fine with you asking in secret but then denying it to man?

I'll give you time to go ask an atheist if you need to.

[CJD]

(12-27-2019, 05:34 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Donald Trump is not the only person I give the "benefit of the doubt" to and i require no one to "convince" me. But I'm most likely irrational because I don't put him in a separate category.

I've ignored nothing. I cannot count the number of times I've called Trump sinful; you most likely just miss them because you choose not to bold them. 

I agree history is full of folks being forgiving of others. Often times without them asking for it. History is also full of man judging man> Often times without them asking for it. 

But as I continue to say: What to know how a Christian should act. Ask an atheist. 

You saying Trump is sinful carries very little weight because, as you correctly pointed out "we are not without sin." As in all of us.


So saying Trump is sinful is saying Trump is just like everyone else.


What we (people who oppose Trump) are looking for is not for the right wing or its voters/sympathizers (which I believe accurately describes you) to say he is sinful. We're looking for them to condemn Trump as unfit for office because of the fact that he is sinful (far more so than the average person).


Hopefully, that makes sense.

[fredtoast]

(12-27-2019, 06:07 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: What we (people who oppose Trump) are looking for is not for the right wing or its voters/sympathizers (which I believe accurately describes you) to say he is sinful. We're looking for them to condemn Trump as unfit for office because of the fact that he is sinful (far more so than the average person).

Unfortunately many Christians don't know what the Bible tells them to do.

2 Timothy 4:2-3

2 Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. [/font][/size][/color]

3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 


You have to be able to"judge" before you can "correct and rebuke" yet it seems some Christians are twisting scripture to claim that someone can be a Christian while denying to man that God has granted him foregiveness.

But whatever "their itching ears want to hear" I guess.

If someone claims to be a millionaire and then says he does not have a million dollars it makes no sense to say "He might be a millionaire even though he does not have a million dollars.  who amI to judge?"

[BmorePat87]

I gave it a read.

I disagree with the characterization of the impeachment inquiry and I think suggesting Trump didn't have an oppurtunity to give his side is just their attempt to get conservatives willing to listen.

With regards to the message, I think it will fall on deaf ears. The fact that Trump is morally bankrupt isn't a matter of debate nor is anyone suggesting he isn't. Those who need to hear this likely do not care. It is my belief that they justify his immorality by saying that the ends justify the means. They have been led to believe that their religion and values are under attack. They honestly believe things like protecting the rights of the LGBT community is an attack on their own rights. They likely believed that Obama was a muslim. They're the kind of people who will proclaim their devotion to protecting Israel but then are anti-Semitic. When the leaders of their religion are quasi-celebrities giving sermons in mega churches while wearing tens of thousands of dollars worth of clothes, they've compromised something.

Of course, this is just the loud ones. I hope that they do not describe the majority of those who see moral leadership or divine involvement in Trump. My grandmother was adamant that she did not support Trump because of his lacking moral character... and now she's full on in support of him and eats up all of the stuff these televangelist tell her about it. I do not think Christianity Today's message is really directed at all Christians, just a specific subset.

I was raised Catholic. I grew disillusioned with the bureaucracy of religion. To me, it should be a personal, spiritual experience. My wife wants to reconnect with her Jewish faith before we have kids, and I am willing to go with her. I've met the local rabbi through a field trip. He's a really great guy. I doubt it will really draw me in, but it seems far more aligned to my personal beliefs than other options. So much of my perspective of organized religion has been tainted by those I described earlier, I am trying to see the other sides of it.

[Dill]

(12-24-2019, 02:21 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Yes, I am utterly unable to say how a Christian should act. I can speak to the guidelines we are given, but at the end of the day; it comes down to 2 things: Do you believe in Christ and have you confessed this publicly. There are many that also say a immersion in water is requited, but I'm not here to debate that. 

As to the article: I've not read it and most likely will not; seems silly really. But I'm not going to assert that the dude that wrote it is or is not a Christian. 

Of course you've bastardized the point debated to such an extent that it has become absurd.

My issue was simply when Benton asserted it's up to Christians to judge if others are Christians. We all have our thoughts on how one should act, but I'm not as equipped to judge as apparently you and Benton are.

I can understand it with you, because you are a confessed atheist and most likely think human judgement is a part of Christianity, but it's not. 

You were "utterly unable to say how a Christian should act," except one must confess publicly? 

Who was asking you whether the "dude that wrote it" was a Christian?

You keep saying that "human judgment" is a not a part of Christianity. Then when I provide historical examples of Christians--including St. Paul--doing exactly that, you claim to "understand" why I don't get it.  I'm an atheist. 

Christians have been judging the Christianity of other Christians for 2,000 years now. You can't refute that by saying atheists just don't get it, because plenty of Christians agree that Christians have been judging the Christianity of other Christians for 2,000 years.

So you have to be saying either

1) the historical record AND the Bible are wrong, or

2) those judging Christians were wrong. I.e., you have to judge their Christianity. Even if you let them be Christians, at the very least, they were doing it wrong--in your judgment.

[Dill]

(12-27-2019, 07:48 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I gave it a read.

I disagree with the characterization of the impeachment inquiry and I think suggesting Trump didn't have an oppurtunity to give his side is just their attempt to get conservatives willing to listen.

With regards to the message, I think it will fall on deaf ears. The fact that Trump is morally bankrupt isn't a matter of debate nor is anyone suggesting he isn't. Those who need to hear this likely do not care. It is my belief that they justify his immorality by saying that the ends justify the means. They have been led to believe that their religion and values are under attack. They honestly believe things like  protecting the rights of the LGBT community is an attack on their own rights. They likely believed that Obama was a muslim. They're the kind of people who will proclaim their devotion to protecting Israel but then are anti-Semitic. When the leaders of their religion are quasi-celebrities giving sermons in mega churches while wearing tens of thousands of dollars worth of clothes, they've compromised something.

Of course, this is just the loud ones. I hope that they do not describe the majority of those who see moral leadership or divine involvement in Trump. My grandmother was adamant that she did not support Trump because of his lacking moral character... and now she's full on in support of him and eats up all of the stuff these televangelist tell her about it. I do not think Christianity Today's message is really directed at all Christians, just a specific subset.

Yes, an Evangelical subset. 

I think they really believe Trump didn't get a fair shake. They aren't really interested in what you and I would call domestic or foreign policy. Hillary was on the wrong side of the Endtimes and women's rights. 

The problem is that Trump has, over three years now, been forcing many supporters to compromise and rationalize and compromise some more, to the point that it is no longer working for some--especially ones who remember how they responded to Clinton and believe that God is watching them as they stand before their Sunday school students to model integrity.

[*bfine32*]

(12-27-2019, 06:07 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: You saying Trump is sinful carries very little weight because, as you correctly pointed out "we are not without sin." As in all of us.


So saying Trump is sinful is saying Trump is just like everyone else.


What we (people who oppose Trump) are looking for is not for the right wing or its voters/sympathizers (which I believe accurately describes you) to say he is sinful. We're looking for them to condemn Trump as unfit for office because of the fact that he is sinful (far more so than the average person).


Hopefully, that makes sense.

Yes, I'm glad that point in bold did not escape you. 

I'm surprise the Liberal (which I believe accurately describes you) feels a POTUS is unfit to serve because he is sinful. 

Should POTUS be removed because of religion? This is the simple question I asked of the OP about the author's stance pages ago, but all I got was dug in heels and "read it for yourself"

[*bfine32*]

(12-27-2019, 07:52 PM)Dill Wrote: You were "utterly unable to say how a Christian should act," except one must confess publicly? 

Who was asking you whether the "dude that wrote it" was a Christian?

You keep saying that "human judgment" is a not a part of Christianity. Then when I provide historical examples of Christians--including St. Paul--doing exactly that, you claim to "understand" why I don't get it.  I'm an atheist. 

Christians have been judging the Christianity of other Christians for 2,000 years now. You can't refute that by saying atheists just don't get it, because plenty of Christians agree that Christians have been judging the Christianity of other Christians for 2,000 years.

So you have to be saying either

1) the historical record AND the Bible are wrong, or

2) those judging Christians were wrong. I.e., you have to judge their Christianity. Even if you let them be Christians, at the very least, they were doing it wrong--in your judgment.

I will say this: Benton and I have had the back and forth. So far 6 people have chimed in on their views of the back and forth. Of those 6, 4 seem to agree with Benton's judgement POV (Dill, Fred, Dino, CJD) three of those are professed atheists, I must apologize I'm unsure of CJD's beliefs, but get this: Whatever he tells me I will believe. The other 2 that have chimed in are professed Christian and they side with the non-judgmental side of the debate. You guys can attempt to cheapen the overall point by focusing totally on Trump, but you're missing it.

Of course Christians have been judging Christians for 2,000 years, but let's not twist judgement of acts with judgement of one's personal relationship of his/her savior.

I do not believe that the universe was created in seven 24 hour days. There are Christians that will say that belief in unchristian. There are other Christians that state one must be immersed in water to be saved and sprinkling doesn't count. My believe is it really doesn't matter, Some Christians will judge that as unchristian.

But do not come in here and read the bible like a textbook and pretend to know it. It is a trick of Satan. If enough atheists can convince folks you must do this, and then this, and then this. Furthermore, you must act like this, and then this, and then this. Many undecided may turn away from the grace that is FREE.