Evangelical Magazine Supports Impeachment and Removal

[*bfine32*]

(12-27-2019, 07:48 PM)BmorePat87 Wrote: I gave it a read.

I disagree with the characterization of the impeachment inquiry and I think suggesting Trump didn't have an oppurtunity to give his side is just their attempt to get conservatives willing to listen.

With regards to the message, I think it will fall on deaf ears. The fact that Trump is morally bankrupt isn't a matter of debate nor is anyone suggesting he isn't. Those who need to hear this likely do not care. It is my belief that they justify his immorality by saying that the ends justify the means. They have been led to believe that their religion and values are under attack. They honestly believe things like  protecting the rights of the LGBT community is an attack on their own rights. They likely believed that Obama was a muslim. They're the kind of people who will proclaim their devotion to protecting Israel but then are anti-Semitic. When the leaders of their religion are quasi-celebrities giving sermons in mega churches while wearing tens of thousands of dollars worth of clothes, they've compromised something.

Of course, this is just the loud ones. I hope that they do not describe the majority of those who see moral leadership or divine involvement in Trump. My grandmother was adamant that she did not support Trump because of his lacking moral character... and now she's full on in support of him and eats up all of the stuff these televangelist tell her about it. I do not think Christianity Today's message is really directed at all Christians, just a specific subset.

I was raised Catholic. I grew disillusioned with the bureaucracy of religion. To me, it should be a personal, spiritual experience. My wife wants to reconnect with her Jewish faith before we have kids, and I am willing to go with her. I've met the local rabbi through a field trip. He's a really great guy. I doubt it will really draw me in, but it seems far more aligned to my personal beliefs than other options. So much of my perspective of organized religion has been tainted by those I described earlier, I am trying to see the other sides of it.

I appreciate the honesty in this post and pray you find what you seek. 

[*bfine32*]

(12-27-2019, 08:00 PM)Dill Wrote: Yes, an Evangelical subset. 

I think they really believe Trump didn't get a fair shake. They aren't really interested in what you and I would call domestic or foreign policy. Hillary was on the wrong side of the Endtimes and women's rights. 

The problem is that Trump has, over three years now, been forcing many supporters to compromise and rationalize and compromise some more, to the point that it is no longer working for some--especially ones who remember how they responded to Clinton and believe that God is watching them as they stand before their Sunday school students to model integrity.

This will make you happy: Trump once judged Hillary's faith as a Methodist and cast it in doubt. Personally I found it to go against my fundamental beliefs. It's much bigger than Trump, Clinton, bfine, Dill, Benton,... 

[Benton]

(12-27-2019, 06:07 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: You saying Trump is sinful carries very little weight because, as you correctly pointed out "we are not without sin." As in all of us.


So saying Trump is sinful is saying Trump is just like everyone else.


What we (people who oppose Trump) are looking for is not for the right wing or its voters/sympathizers (which I believe accurately describes you) to say he is sinful. We're looking for them to condemn Trump as unfit for office because of the fact that he is sinful (far more so than the average person)

I'm ok with someone non Christian being in office. A person's religion shouldn't effect his ability to govern.

And, really, there's plenty of reasons  not to want trump in office. But in regard to Christianity, it sets a bad example for Christians and potential believers. 


And in regard to trump might be a Christian,we dont know what he does in private... No, we don't. And the nice thing about Christianity is, as pointed out, you can ask for forgiveness and it's all good. But the issue is you have to ask for repentance. Trump or anyone else doesn't have to ask people for that, but he does have to ask God. 

So why's that an issue for trump? Because he doesn't admit he did anything wrong. Steal from people, defraud a charity, insult people,threaten them? Well, it just makes him smart. Or tough. Or the victim.

You can't say cheating on your taxes makes you smart and be remorseful for cheating on your taxes at the same time.

Is trump a Christian? No. Can he be? Sure. I hope for his sake one day he is.

[Dill]

(12-27-2019, 08:14 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I will say this: Benton and I have had the back and forth. So far 6 people have chimed in on their views of the back and forth. Of those 6, 4 seem to agree with Benton's judgement POV (Dill, Fred, Dino, CJD) three of those are professed atheists, I must apologize I'm unsure of CJD's beliefs, but get this: Whatever he tells me I will believe. The other 2 that have chimed in are professed Christian and they side with the non-judgmental side of the debate. You guys can attempt to cheapen the overall point by focusing totally on Trump, but you're missing it.

Of course Christians have been judging Christians for 2,000 years, but let's not twist judgement of acts with judgement of one's personal relationship of his/her savior.

I do not believe that the universe was created in seven 24 hour days. There are Christians that will say that belief in unchristian. There are other Christians that state one must be immersed in water to be saved and sprinkling doesn't count. My believe is it really doesn't matter, Some Christians will judge that as unchristian.

But do not come in here and read the bible like a textbook and pretend to know it. It is a trick of Satan. If enough atheists can convince folks you must do this, and then this, and then this. Furthermore, you must act like this, and then this, and then this. Many undecided may turn away from the grace that is FREE.  

Who was/is "twisting judgment of acts with judgment of one's personal relationship of his/her savior"? 

I don't think any atheists are trying to convince people how to "do this and this" to be Christians. 

What, exactly, is a "trick of Satan"? Would he more likely favor logic or illogic? 

You don't "pretend" to know the Bible, I guess. You avoid Satan's tricks by reading it how?

[Dill]

(12-27-2019, 08:26 PM)bfine32 Wrote: This will make you happy: Trump once judged Hillary's faith as a Methodist and cast it in doubt. Personally I found it to go against my fundamental beliefs. It's much bigger than Trump, Clinton, bfine, Dill, Benton,... 

???

Sounds like you meant to say Trump publicly doubted Hillary was really a Methodist or Christian, or something. Sounds like something he would do--and I wouldn't pay it much attention.

Don't know what "it" refers to in the last line.

[*bfine32*]

(12-27-2019, 08:33 PM)Dill Wrote: 1. Who was/is "twisting judgment of acts with judgment of one's personal relationship of his/her savior"? 

2. I don't think any atheists are trying to convince people how to "do this and this" to be Christians. 

3. What, exactly, is a "trick of Satan"? Would he more likely favor logic or illogic? 

4. You don't "pretend" to know the Bible, I guess. You avoid Satan's tricks by reading it how?

1. Anyone who says one Christian should judge another

2. You sure did read that wrong.

3. Nah, Satan prefers tricks

4. No, I'm not arrogant enough to claim I know the bible. i read the bible, study the bible, as for guidance on the meaning of the bible, and pray I have a firm understanding of the message. But I realize I have a finite mind and God's wisdom is infinite so I'll never know every content of the bible.

You may or may not have noticed: I have not considered/ called Benton "not a Christian" simply because we disagree on this point. 

[CJD]

(12-27-2019, 08:02 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yes, I'm glad that point in bold did not escape you. 

I'm surprise the Liberal (which I believe accurately describes you) feels a POTUS is unfit to serve because he is sinful. 

Should POTUS be removed because of religion? This is the simple question I asked of the OP about the author's stance pages ago, but all I got was dug in heels and "read it for yourself"

I think he is unfit for a variety of reasons, but sinful is the terminology that you are using, so I stuck with it for this reasoning as to why you feel like you have to keep repeating yourself that you do find him sinful. Liberals here know you think he's sinful. We are just commenting on the fact that that sinfulness is just an observation to you, rather than a cause to take action (specifically, to remove him from office).

As far as him being sinful just like everyone else, it's true. But he far exceeds the average, in my opinion. He takes active steps of abusing the power he's been given and he is using his position as POTUS as a vehicle to cause harm to certain factions and groups of people. Those are the reasons I think he's unfit to serve. Those things are also sinful, but they are not the primary reason for me, personally.

I can't speak to the author's stance, I can only speak towards my reasoning. But I don't think "because of religion" is a primary reason for his removal. It's just a happenstance of his behavior that religion should almost certainly support his removal.

From the article itself: "The president of the United States attempted to use his political power to coerce a foreign leader to harass and discredit one of the president’s political opponents. That is not only a violation of the Constitution; more importantly, it is profoundly immoral."

So I believe the author is saying that his behavior is both (religiously) immoral AND illegal (if you define "illegal" as a violation of the Constitution, which I think is an argument that holds water). In essence: his immorality is likely "icing on the cake" to the author and cause to convince other Christians to turn on the President, an act that the author seemingly is surprised has not yet occurred, based on the teachings of the Bible.

(12-27-2019, 08:14 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I will say this: Benton and I have had the back and forth. So far 6 people have chimed in on their views of the back and forth. Of those 6, 4 seem to agree with Benton's judgement POV (Dill, Fred, Dino, CJD) three of those are professed atheists, I must apologize I'm unsure of CJD's beliefs, but get this: Whatever he tells me I will believe. The other 2 that have chimed in are professed Christian and they side with the non-judgmental side of the debate. You guys can attempt to cheapen the overall point by focusing totally on Trump, but you're missing it.

Of course Christians have been judging Christians for 2,000 years, but let's not twist judgement of acts with judgement of one's personal relationship of his/her savior.

I do not believe that the universe was created in seven 24 hour days. There are Christians that will say that belief in unchristian. There are other Christians that state one must be immersed in water to be saved and sprinkling doesn't count. My believe is it really doesn't matter, Some Christians will judge that as unchristian.

But do not come in here and read the bible like a textbook and pretend to know it. It is a trick of Satan. If enough atheists can convince folks you must do this, and then this, and then this. Furthermore, you must act like this, and then this, and then this. Many undecided may turn away from the grace that is FREE.  

And, for whatever it's worth, I was raised Christian and espouse Christian views and beliefs. I believe in God. I believe in Heaven and Hell. I believe that Jesus was our savior.

I, like you, don't take some (or, in my case, many) of the things in the Bible as literal re-tellings of what happened in the Biblical age, but more as stories or occurrences that were most likely exaggerated with the intention of teaching a moral or lesson. Some may say that means I'm not really a Christian, but I disagree.

Because of my non-literal take on Christianity, I have a general distaste for organized religion (specifically, the Catholic church, but some of the same skepticism applies to the Christian denominations as well) because of the way that its leaders use it to manipulate their followers. I find most Televangelists to be repugnant because of how predatory they are on the people who follow them and listen to them due to their belief in God. The vast majority of local churches, however, I am very supportive of. I had a church that I'd attended for several years before leaving them in late 2016, when the pastor endorsed Donald Trump for President during one of his sermons, someone I believe spits in the very face of anyone who is a follower of Christ.

None of this changes anything, but you said you were unsure of my beliefs, so I felt like I may as well respond.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/americas-true-history-of-religious-tolerance-61312684/

Anyone even slightly familiar with colonization of the New World should be familiar with the idea that Christians have a rich history of persecuting other Christians based upon their Christian beliefs.  After fleeing religious persecution they quickly began persecuting each other all over again in the New World.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.” (Matthew 7:1-5)

+++

After reading these verses many decades ago I vowed I would never try to judge who is a believer and who is not. Only Our Lord knows.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

Oh, I just remember the term washed in the blood or washed in the water.  Because "real" Christians are washed in the blood and "fake" Christians are washed in the water.  Just another cute euphemism for Christians judging other Christians.

[*bfine32*]

(12-27-2019, 09:37 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/americas-true-history-of-religious-tolerance-61312684/

Anyone even slightly familiar with colonization of the New World should be familiar with the idea that Christians have a rich history of persecuting other Christians based upon their Christian beliefs.  After fleeing religious persecution they quickly began persecuting each other all over again in the New World.

Sadly this is true. I take solace in knowing I do not judge. Many others feel this way as well. 

[BakertheBeast]

I got one. How about this one. " Let him who is without sin cast the first stone ". Praise be the Lord.

[BakertheBeast]

(12-27-2019, 03:41 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Where was I when this happened?

You must of been in church praying.

[GMDino]

(12-27-2019, 08:14 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I will say this: Benton and I have had the back and forth. So far 6 people have chimed in on their views of the back and forth. Of those 6, 4 seem to agree with Benton's judgement POV (Dill, Fred, Dino, CJD) three of those are professed atheists, I must apologize I'm unsure of CJD's beliefs, but get this: Whatever he tells me I will believe. The other 2 that have chimed in are professed Christian and they side with the non-judgmental side of the debate. You guys can attempt to cheapen the overall point by focusing totally on Trump, but you're missing it.

Of course Christians have been judging Christians for 2,000 years, but let's not twist judgement of acts with judgement of one's personal relationship of his/her savior.

If I ever avowed to being an atheist show it, or as you say, STFU.

(12-27-2019, 10:11 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Sadly this is true. I take solace in knowing I do not judge. Many others feel this way as well. 

Yet here we are.

You still haven't read the article in the OP and you are still arguing about "not judging Trump" while judging everyone who judges him.

It would be sad it it wasn't so funny.

But hey, Trump supporters NEED to believe that Trump is just like them because they need not believe they voted for a lying conman who has become a false idol to them.  I get it.  I see it every day.  EVERYONE ELSE is lying, obsessing, hating, always pointing out the non-christian things the POTUS says and does...judging.  

Trump, on the other hand, is (maybe) a "Christian" in his heart.

Totally believable. 

[fredtoast]

(12-20-2019, 04:48 PM)bfine32 Wrote:  is he saying Trump should be removed because he is not religious?

No.  He clearly says that the reason Trump must be removed from office is because he has abused his power for political gain.

But he also makes a second point about how religion will suffer if religious people keep supporting Trump.

To the many evangelicals who continue to support Mr. Trump in spite of his blackened moral record, we might say this: Remember who you are and whom you serve. Consider how your justification of Mr. Trump influences your witness to your Lord and Savior. Consider what an unbelieving world will say if you continue to brush off Mr. Trump’s immoral words and behavior in the cause of political expediency. If we don’t reverse course now, will anyone take anything we say about justice and righteousness with any seriousness for decades to come?


Get it now?  

[fredtoast]

(12-27-2019, 10:11 PM)bfine32 Wrote:  I take solace in knowing I do not judge. 

But you just called me an atheist.

For all you know I may go home every night and pray to God to forgive me for claiming to be an atheist.

If Trump can say he has never asked God for forgiveness, but you think he could still be a Christian then why couldn't I really be a Christian even though I deny it in public?

[*bfine32*]

(12-31-2019, 07:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No.  He clearly says that the reason Trump must be removed from office is because he has abused his power for political gain.

But he also makes a second point about how religion will suffer if religious people keep supporting Trump.

To the many evangelicals who continue to support Mr. Trump in spite of his blackened moral record, we might say this: Remember who you are and whom you serve. Consider how your justification of Mr. Trump influences your witness to your Lord and Savior. Consider what an unbelieving world will say if you continue to brush off Mr. Trump’s immoral words and behavior in the cause of political expediency. If we don’t reverse course now, will anyone take anything we say about justice and righteousness with any seriousness for decades to come?


Get it now?  

Yes, I got an answer and one that is appreciated (It was like pulling teeth with that other dude.). I too agree that POTUS should set an example in Christian morality and Trump is not the epitome of that;  just seems like a dangerous reason to support the impeachment of POTUS.  

A strong Christian faith is one of the reasons I have Mayor Pete toward the top of my ballot. 

[*bfine32*]

(12-31-2019, 08:46 AM)GMDino Wrote:

If I ever avowed to being an atheist show it, or as you say, STFU.

(12-31-2019, 07:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But you just called me an atheist.

Perhaps I'm mistaken in remembering you both have stated you do not believe in God. There was no judgement there; simply going by what I remembered. If I was mistaken I apologize. Unlike the 2 of you, from my best recollection, Trump proclaims to be a Christian. 

Here's the kicker: I don't judge him if he says he is, just as I haven't judged you if you say you are not. IMO, a matter such as this should be taken as the individual professes.

WTS, I'll be overjoyed if I mis-remembered either of your posts and you truly confess to being a Christian. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(12-31-2019, 07:44 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yes, I got an answer and one that is appreciated (It was like pulling teeth with that other dude.). I too agree that POTUS should set an example in Christian morality and Trump is not the epitome of that;  just seems like a dangerous reason to support the impeachment of POTUS.  

A strong Christian faith is one of the reasons I have Mayor Pete toward the top of my ballot. 

Huh, so in your judgment Trump isn’t a very good Christian?

Wow, I didn’t see that coming from a galaxy far, far away. Can we drop the fake, self-righteous, moral indignation about Christians judging Christians? Because obviously even the Christians who erroneously claim they don’t judge other Christians subconsciously do; even while simultaneously claiming they don’t.

On a related note, if I bust a gut while laughing at this shit while at work, will Worker’s Comp cover my injuries?

[*bfine32*]

(12-31-2019, 08:12 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Huh, so in your judgment Trump isn’t a very good Christian?  

Wow, I didn’t see that coming from a galaxy far, far away. Can we drop the fake, self-righteous, moral indignation about Christians judging Christians? Because obviously even the Christians who erroneously claim they don’t judge other Christians subconsciously do; even while simultaneously claiming they don’t.

On a related note, if I bust a gut while laughing at this shit while at work, will Worker’s Comp cover my injuries?

I get you're looking real hard for a gotcha, but nowhere did I say Trump isn't a very good Christian. 

I'm sorry the point has eluded you and equally sorry about your work place injury, but no where did I say Christians don't judge other Christian's actions; they do. Hell I do; as I walk in sin. I just don't judge whether anyone who professes to be a Christian is not. Again I apologize that this consistant point made by me has eluded you.