Evangelical Support for Trump Eroding?

[Belsnickel]

(10-11-2018, 12:51 PM)Benton Wrote: Personally, I don't think the GOP is all that different about not following His word. They leverage abortion as a platform issue, but rarely use the authority they have to do anything more about it than talk about how they need to get reelected to do something. Latching onto that has taken evangelicals down a dark path of not supporting laws reflecting His word.

Well, they also have a habit of being very single-minded on the issue, focusing only on one solution to eliminate abortions. The solution they choose being one that has been shown to be relatively ineffective while they ignore the policy efforts that have proven to be effective in reducing unwanted pregnancies and abortions. So it makes me question the sincerity of their position.

[*Nately120*]

(10-11-2018, 04:19 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Many Christian feel charity should be from the heart, not from the government.

Again, total cynic here, but I'm not sure Christian hearts always reach the least of our people.  And I'm not one with a lot faith in the government, either.

[Benton]

(10-11-2018, 04:19 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Many Christian feel charity should be from the heart, not from the government.

We can't legislate morality very effectively either, but that's the party platform. So why only half? Why legislate marriages regulations (which Jesus didn't speak on) and not give away food (which he did speak on)?

[*bfine32*]

(10-12-2018, 09:56 AM)Benton Wrote: We can't legislate morality very effectively either, but that's the party platform. So why only half? Why legislate marriages regulations (which Jesus didn't speak on) and not give away food (which he did speak on)?

Yep, no system's perfect. Dude simply asked why some Christians are against mandated welfare.

[fredtoast]

(10-12-2018, 12:15 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yep, no system's perfect. Dude simply asked why some Christians are against mandated welfare.

Many Christians just use that argument as a cop out because they don't want to sound uncharitable.

You don't hear many people say "I am against speed limits.  Of course I believe everyone should drive at a safe speed but it makes me mad that the government requires it."

Laws regarding feeding and housing the poor came into being for the same reason speed limits did.  People just were not complying sufficiently when it was voluntary.

[Benton]

(10-12-2018, 12:15 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yep, no system's perfect. Dude simply asked why some Christians are against mandated welfare.

And it's a question worth answering. Unfortunately, yours isn't one (don't take that as a slight, I don't think any one person can answer on behalf of all Christians). 

As Christians, we can't say "don't have a beer because Jesus said" and "go get a job, stop asking for hand outs because ... well ...nevermind what Jesus said... get a job, bum." 

But it's a question evangelicals need to be asking themselves. If they're for making America a Christian nation, why are they opposed to acting like Christians?

[Belsnickel]

(10-12-2018, 12:35 PM)Benton Wrote: But it's a question evangelicals need to be asking themselves. If they're for making America a Christian nation, why are they opposed to acting like Christians?

Capitalism.

[GMDino]

(10-12-2018, 12:37 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Capitalism.

Yep.  Beat me to it.

Although I'd have slid more towards greed.

It's the LOVE of money that is the root of all evil...

[Belsnickel]

This thread reminded me of something I read last year and I finally found it, today, while on my lunch break: https://religioninpublic.blog/2017/02/14/are-evangelicals-economic-conservatives-too/

[Belsnickel]

(10-12-2018, 12:40 PM)GMDino Wrote: Yep.  Beat me to it.

Although I'd have slid more towards greed.

It's the LOVE of money that is the root of all evil...

Same dif.

[*bfine32*]

(10-12-2018, 12:35 PM)Benton Wrote: And it's a question worth answering. Unfortunately, yours isn't one (don't take that as a slight, I don't think any one person can answer on behalf of all Christians). 

As Christians, we can't say "don't have a beer because Jesus said" and "go get a job, stop asking for hand outs because ... well ...nevermind what Jesus said... get a job, bum." 

But it's a question evangelicals need to be asking themselves. If they're for making America a Christian nation, why are they opposed to acting like Christians?

I'd imagine if you researched charitable organizations in the U.S. A number of Christian institutions would be pretty near the top.

I think the reason some are against welfare is the perception of what folks spend the money on given to them. We see/saw reports all the time of folks selling their food stamps, ect..

Personally, I willing to pay whatever taxes Congress deems necessary, but I see it as my civil duty; not my religious one.

[*Nately120*]

(10-12-2018, 02:28 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I think the reason some are against welfare is the perception of what folks spend the money on given to them. We see/saw reports all the time of folks selling their food stamps, ect..

I hear ya,  but then again I'd say the only thing I have less faith in than the government is the veracity/perspicacity of people's perceptions.


EDIT: That also includes my own flawed perceptions of what "most Christians" do based upon the inordinate number of crazy ones I know personally.

[Benton]

(10-12-2018, 02:28 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'd imagine if you researched charitable organizations in the U.S. A number of Christian institutions would be pretty near the top.

Charitable organizations give and receive. So, I'm not sure what you're implying. That there are lots of Christian-based charities? I would agree with that... along with saying there are lots of non-religious related ones, too.

Quote:I think the reason some are against welfare is the perception of what folks spend the money on given to them. We see/saw reports all the time of folks selling their food stamps, ect..

For Christian folks, that shouldn't matter. That's between the recipient and God. Welfare abuse is irrelevant.

I volunteer when I can at a Christian-based kitchen, and a different food pantry. Neither one asks for income info. Just good folks feeding other folks who need fed because that's what God said to do. 

Quote:Personally, I willing to pay whatever taxes Congress deems necessary, but I see it as my civil duty; not my religious one.

Congress is largely supposed to be a reflection of their constituents. What they spend money on should be of interest to anyone who pays taxes. Personally, I'd rather that go to keep someone fed and sheltered and alive as opposed to paying someone's gambling losses or making a handful of lobbyists happy.

[*bfine32*]

(10-12-2018, 02:43 PM)Benton Wrote: Charitable organizations give and receive. So, I'm not sure what you're implying. That there are lots of Christian-based charities? I would agree with that... along with saying there are lots of non-religious related ones, too.



For Christian folks, that shouldn't matter. That's between the recipient and God. Welfare abuse is irrelevant.

I volunteer when I can at a Christian-based kitchen, and a different food pantry. Neither one asks for income info. Just good folks feeding other folks who need fed because that's what God said to do. 


Congress is largely supposed to be a reflection of their constituents. What they spend money on should be of interest to anyone who pays taxes. Personally, I'd rather that go to keep someone fed and sheltered and alive as opposed to paying someone's gambling losses or making a handful of lobbyists happy.

Guess I'll research and see how Christian organization stack up against secular organizations in charitable giving. I'll see if there is a difference and get back with you. 

Some feel they are supporting "anti-Christian" activities such as drug use or alcohol abuse. They want to ensure their charitable dollars are used for food, clothing, shelter, and necessary medical care.

A Christian-based kitchen you say.

Not sure how many are against feeding, clothing, and sheltering the needy. As I said, I freely pay my taxes, but do not consider it my Christian duty; that's a totally separate matter.

[Benton]

(10-12-2018, 03:05 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Some feel they are supporting "anti-Christian" activities such as drug use or alcohol abuse. They want to ensure their charitable dollars are used for food, clothing, shelter, and necessary medical care.

Understandable concern,but not really something you can eliminate secular or non.

In about 6 weeks it so well give away 600ish Thanksgiving dinners through the pantry (uncooked turkey, dessert, canned goods, box of stuffing a d potatoes). How much of that gets traded for drugs,smokes or booze? Probably some. But that doesn't stop us from helping the ones who need it and don't abuse it.

As I said, that's the recipients conscience carrying the weight.

[fredtoast]

(10-12-2018, 03:05 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Not sure how many are against feeding, clothing, and sheltering the needy. 

Based on the number I hear claiming that poor people are just lazy I'd say a very large percentage.

They actually claim that it hurts the poor to help them.

[Dill]

(10-12-2018, 02:43 PM)Benton Wrote: Charitable organizations give and receive. So, I'm not sure what you're implying. That there are lots of Christian-based charities? I would agree with that... along with saying there are lots of non-religious related ones, too.

For Christian folks, that shouldn't matter. That's between the recipient and God. Welfare abuse is irrelevant.

I volunteer when I can at a Christian-based kitchen, and a different food pantry. Neither one asks for income info. Just good folks feeding other folks who need fed because that's what God said to do.

Congress is largely supposed to be a reflection of their constituents. What they spend money on should be of interest to anyone who pays taxes. Personally, I'd rather that go to keep someone fed and sheltered and alive as opposed to paying someone's gambling losses or making a handful of lobbyists happy.

(10-12-2018, 03:05 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Some feel they are supporting "anti-Christian" activities such as drug use or alcohol abuse. They want to ensure their charitable dollars are used for food, clothing, shelter, and necessary medical care.

Not sure how many are against feeding, clothing, and sheltering the needy. As I said, I freely pay my taxes, but do not consider it my Christian duty; that's a totally separate matter.

People often wonder why Evangelicals, who state a desire to be "Christlike" and to make the U.S. a Christian nation, nevertheless support mean Republican policies.

As the links I posted above show, not all are down with such policies, but I find it interesting how those who are down with them reconcile denying refugees safety, food and shelter, or reducing welfare, with "being Christlike."  It seems that contemporary Protestantism has reworked the Augustinian division between the City of God and the City of man into a division between private, individual behavior and public government.

Defending Dr. Robert Jeffress and conservative evangelicals requires repairing our evangelical political theology

http://capstonereport.com/2018/01/21/repairing-evangelical-political-theology-getting-the-state-right/31843/

The biblical data is clear, the state exists to create order so that Christians can have lives of safety and quiet. Here are a few key texts:

Romans 13:3, “For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have its approval. 4 For it is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, because it does not carry the sword for no reason. For it is God’s servant, an avenger that brings wrath on the one who does wrong.”[1]

Here, Paul tells us that government is God’s servant (diakonos) that punishes wrongdoers. The service the state renders to God is twofold in helping its subjects toward good and preventing evil. One commentary, explains the formulation as, “Hence even Christians, ‘freed’ by Christ Jesus from the powers of this world, cannot resist the political authority that comes ultimately from God, even if that authority is at the time in the hands of heathens.”[2] This is a very important point. The state was not transformed by Christ’s work or the preaching of the Gospel. The Gospel’s preaching changed individuals. Government exists as it did prior to Christ’s work on the Cross and His resurrection. If we carefully consider what some neo-Kuyperian political thinkers push, that as Christians we must transform the state into an institution carrying out Christ’s Sermon on the Mount, and that Christ’s work has totally transformed the state (or at least should transform the state), then we must ask why are we not told such in the explicit texts dealing with government? It seems uniform in the New Testament writings that government is given one role and the church another.

.......
Trying to force Gospel principles on the state is out of place. It would result in absurdities. Would justice be served if the government turned the other cheek to open rebellion? Should the state forgive the felon 70 times 7? Of course not. (Though prison reforming advocates in evangelicalism sure seem intent on pushing that as part of their prison reform agenda.) These are principles for individuals. The principles governing the state are to foster order so that all of us are empowered to carry out those acts of love and mercy. Evangelicals must firmly resist confusing the purpose of the state with the purpose for the Christian. Otherwise, the state cannot do its job protecting us.
.....................................

This is an argument against "Gospelizing" the state, and so I think one corollary of it also must be that it is not the state's job to feed the poor--it is the job of the individual.  So there is no contradiction between reducing or ending welfare and feeding the poor in one's private life.

This distinction between private Christianity and Public government also enables Evangelicals to hail Trump a contemporary "Cyrus" who is not of them but enables the restoration of God's nation on earth.  

(PS: LOL "Biblical data")  

[*PhilHos*]

(10-10-2018, 09:13 PM)GMDino Wrote: They would fit that description.

"Thou shalt not kill" is pretty clear.

How they justify it to themselves is baffling to me.

Of course I don't get the people who kill because they say their god told them too either.

Maybe I just don't understand people who kill?

The original Hebrew text translate to "Thou shall not murder". Big difference

[*Nately120*]

(10-12-2018, 06:22 PM)PhilHos Wrote: The original Hebrew text translate to "Thou shall not murder". Big difference

God...the original lawyer.

[*michaelsean*]

Let’s not misunderstand that Jesus was speaking to individuals and what they do. I’m not saying He would be against government helping the poor, but that’s not what he was preaching.