Evangelical Support for Trump Eroding?

[*Nately120*]

(10-10-2018, 09:59 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Speak for yourself when you talk about piss-bucket relegation. I feel blessed every day

My argument isn't about you, it's about the non-argument that voting from Trump shouldn't cause a follower of Christ any crisis of conscience, because the other voting options weren't Jesus or the Virgin Mary.

[GMDino]

(10-10-2018, 09:57 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It's a personal relationship with God; he knows what is in your heart and if your heart is filled with malice to kill then he may not be proud of his child for participating in the act; however, if your heart if full of righteousness then the Lord very well may be pleased. 

For instance in Afghanistan I saw the affects of a young girl having the nerve to try to go to school. She was mutilated and killed and her family's house was attacked. I cannot fathom the thought of a God that would not want to use me as an instrument to work to stop this behavior.

I have a hard time with a god who allows her to be mutilated and killed. But if revenge is in a heart and can used to justify killing someone that is for that person and god to figure out.

(10-10-2018, 09:57 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The men in suits cannot give you the keys to the kingdom, any works you do in your life cannot give you the keys to the kingdom, and pure thoughts cannot give you the keys to the kingdom. Your personal relationship with the lord and your profession of faith gives you the keys.

No they cannot. But they can tell the soldier what to do and they do it. No questions asked because that is what "they signed up for".

I'm not passing judgement that it is "wrong" I am saying that each person needs to justify the balance between serving their god and serving man.

(10-10-2018, 09:57 PM)bfine32 Wrote: So the Soldier, just like the tobacco salesman,  bartender, lawyer that defends the guilty, and the gun manufacturer; is like everyone else. 

Eh, no. The tobacco salesman did not kill someone directly. The lawyer that tries to save a person from punishment is not harming another person. Bad examples.

(10-10-2018, 09:57 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Would you kill someone that was attempting to kill your family?

Honestly...I do not know. Maybe. I cannot conceive of killing another person. Could I do it in self defense? Maybe. I'd prefer to think I could subdue them without killing them. But I am anti-violence and anti-killing. Yet, in the heat of the moment? It could happen.

I didn't sign up to it at another persons command though. And that is what I find fascinating. Again, not wrong or right, but how someone lives their life to get into heaven but agrees to kill other people for the government, of their own free will. And again I don't understand people who say their god tells them to kill people either. It's fascinating to look at. It's also probably why a lot of soldiers suffer mentally when they come home. Something we should do a better job helping them with.

[Dill]

(10-10-2018, 09:40 PM)GMDino Wrote: The guys that dropped the atomic bomb had no idea if they were killing bad guys or innocent people.

Yes they did.

[*Nately120*]

(10-10-2018, 08:44 PM)GMDino Wrote: Then they say "there are not atheists in foxholes".

I'll keep that in mind the next time someone says the Nazis were atheists. 

(10-10-2018, 10:30 PM)Dill Wrote: Yes they did. 

My biggest regret about not being religious is that I won't ever get the chance to ask Jesus why nuking people is ok. I mean, I'm sure he has a good reason that will shut me up...I'm just sorry I won't get to hear it.

[Dill]

(10-10-2018, 09:57 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It's a personal relationship with God; he knows what is in your heart and if your heart is filled with malice to kill then he may not be proud of his child for participating in the act; however, if your heart if full of righteousness then the Lord very well may be pleased. 

For instance in Afghanistan I saw the affects of a young girl having the nerve to try to go to school. She was mutilated and killed and her family's house was attacked. I cannot fathom the thought of a God that would not want to use me as an instrument to work to stop this behavior.

Those mutilators--what role did God play in their actions?  Did they think of themselves as "instruments of God"?

[GMDino]

(10-10-2018, 10:31 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'll keep that in mind the next time someone says the Nazis were atheists. 



My biggest regret about not being religious is that I won't ever get the chance to ask Jesus why nuking people is ok.  I mean, I'm sure he has a good reason that will shut me up...I'm just sorry I won't get to hear it.

Every time I use that phrase I remember George Carlin.

[*bfine32*]

(10-10-2018, 10:33 PM)Dill Wrote: Those mutilators--what role did God play in their actions?  Did they think of themselves as "instruments of God"?

I'm sure they thought they were doing the will of their God. That's why my and other's action(s) to stop them was without malice. 

[*bfine32*]

(10-10-2018, 10:31 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'll keep that in mind the next time someone says the Nazis were atheists. 



My biggest regret about not being religious is that I won't ever get the chance to ask Jesus why nuking people is ok.  I mean, I'm sure he has a good reason that will shut me up...I'm just sorry I won't get to hear it.

Nah, you got it wrong. God doesn't even give his reason(s) to religious folks. But that shouldn't stop you from asking. 

[*Nately120*]

(10-10-2018, 10:49 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Nah, you got it wrong. God doesn't even give his reason(s) to religious folks. But that shouldn't stop you from asking. 

Personally, I'm more interested in acting Christ-like than believing the guy made magic fish sandwiches or turned water into free booze.  If that means I can't spend eternity in the clouds with Donald Trump and Jim Bakker, so be it.

[GMDino]

(10-10-2018, 10:45 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'm sure they thought they were doing the will of their God. That's why my and other's action(s) to stop them was without malice. 

Because they had the wrong god or because they listened to their god?

[*bfine32*]

(10-10-2018, 10:54 PM)GMDino Wrote: Because they had the wrong god or because they listened to their god?

I'm not sure your question addresses what I stated. For all we know, they have the right God. That is why I said it's a personal relationship and my God is one that would want me to use my tools to stop the atrocities I saw. 

How do you feel about it. Should someone try to stop them from such atrocities? 

[*bfine32*]

(10-10-2018, 10:54 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Personally, I'm more interested in acting Christ-like than believing the guy made magic fish sandwiches or turned water into free booze.  If that means I can't spend eternity in the clouds with Donald Trump and Jim Bakker, so be it.

As I said it's a personal relationship. Nothing wrong with being a good person. Don't worry about Trump and Bakker they will have to answer for themselves

[*Nately120*]

(10-10-2018, 11:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: As I said it's a personal relationship. Nothing wrong with being a good person. Don't worry about Trump and Bakker they will have to answer for themselves

I'd say one of my biggest reasons for being a spiritual cynic is that religion seems to be a very public sort of thing, and personal relationships with religious figures/ideas tend to be classified as "doesn't really believe in anything" the moment it stops towing a line set by a fluid and imperfect society. It takes a paragraph or so to explain what I believe and why. People are usually looking for an all or nothing sort of answer that can be given in a single word. Thems the breaks.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(10-10-2018, 09:34 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Sometimes, at our level of enlightenment, there is no choice. I’m sure there are other civilizations, much older than ours, somewhere in the universe that have zero violence. Where a being wouldn’t defend himself even if attacked with the realization that he/she is much more than the body they inhabit. Very few of us are there. So few in fact that we still talk about one from 2,000 years ago.  It’s not just passivism.  It’s beyond that.

Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow the fields of those who do not. 

[*michaelsean*]

(10-11-2018, 12:12 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow the fields of those who do not. 

That’s pretty much where we are and have been for our entire history.

[GMDino]

(10-10-2018, 10:59 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'm not sure your question addresses what I stated. For all we know, they have the right God. That is why I said it's a personal relationship and my God is one that would want me to use my tools to stop the atrocities I saw. 

How do you feel about it. Should someone try to stop them from such atrocities? 

Indeed.  And I never said the person defending the girl did the wrong thing.

It's that "personal relationship" that not only allows one to kill but that they think gives them a mandate to do it in "certain situations" that fascinates me.

There's an old quote about how so many people seem to know what god is thinking and it always agrees with what they are thinking.

[*michaelsean*]

(10-10-2018, 10:54 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Personally, I'm more interested in acting Christ-like than believing the guy made magic fish sandwiches or turned water into free booze.  If that means I can't spend eternity in the clouds with Donald Trump and Jim Bakker, so be it.

Almost none of us act Christ like.  Not really.  I see people write, I'm more Christian than most Christians.  What that usually means is that some of their values happen to line up with some of what they think Jesus would approve of.  Mother Teresa and the people who worked with her would be Christ like.  Most of the rest of us are trying to be decent people.  Which is fine.  

I think if we try to stick to this paragraph no matter what are religious beliefs or if we have none at all, we're doing a pretty good job.

For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, [b]36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’[/b]

[*Nately120*]

(10-11-2018, 09:40 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Almost none of us act Christ like.  Not really.  I see people write, I'm more Christian than most Christians.  What that usually means is that some of their values happen to line up with some of what they think Jesus would approve of.  Mother Teresa and the people who worked with her would be Christ like.  Most of the rest of us are trying to be decent people.  Which is fine.  

I think if we try to stick to this paragraph no matter what are religious beliefs or if we have none at all, we're doing a pretty good job.

For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, [b]36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’[/b]

Being Christ like is hard.  I figure that's one of the main reasons religions are more about believing and less about doing.  I think of myself as Christ like in the sense that I don't boast about how eager I am to shoot someone who walks into my yard.  That's a start, isn't it?

[*michaelsean*]

(10-11-2018, 10:54 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Being Christ like is hard.  I figure that's one of the main reasons religions are more about believing and less about doing.  I think of myself as Christ like in the sense that I don't boast about how eager I am to shoot someone who walks into my yard.  That's a start, isn't it?

Well, I mean, I don't think He'd object to that stance.

[*Nately120*]

(10-11-2018, 11:14 AM)michaelsean Wrote: Well, I mean, I don't think He'd object to that stance.

With my luck I'll go through this life shooting zero people and then die and end up face to face with like...Old Testament "nuke 'em all" god, or some Viking god of slaughter, or something.