Trump on Vietnam and his (lack of) Military Service

[Dill]

(06-07-2019, 12:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I really don't know what a 19 year old me would have done, but based on the way I think now I would not have gone to Vietnam if I could have avoided it.  I don't see anything "brave" about blind allegiance to authority 

But I am a "tough-minded" liberal instead of a meek conservative who does whatever he is told.  It takes guts to stand up for what you believe in.

Terrrible "slur" on those who fought in Vietnam.    But I am going to let others respond to your attack on blind allegiance to authority.


I know I'd have gone at 19 were I drafted.  But maybe not at 20.  Very unlikely at 21.

I was very brave before My Lai and the bombing of Cambodia.  

[*bfine32*]

(06-07-2019, 05:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: My opinion of who is a coward for avoiding service has nothing to do with privilege.  Where did you ever get that idea?

My opinion is not based on how they avoided service.  If Trump or Biden got a medical deferment to avoid service and then said it was an unjust war that we should not have been involved with I would not call them cowards.

So lets get back to "comprehension".  When I said that not everyone who avoided service in Vietnam was a coward why did you keep insisting that we agree?  Is that also your position?  You don't think the guys who went to Canada were cowards just because they did not avoid service through privilege?

There are those meek folks who legitimately didn't qualify for service so those folks are not cowards, but everyone who got a deferment simply because of privilege was/is a coward; especially when they share space with a man such as the meek, blind allegiance John McCain. It's real easy, you either say yes I agree with that assertion or no I do not. Saying everybody who didn't serve in Vietnam is not a coward is not addressing the point made.

You said the exact thing except you focused solely on medical deferment and called them chickenshit instead of cowards.

Yes I also consider those that went to Canada to be cowards as well

Quote:coward (ˈkaʊəd)

n
a person who shrinks from or avoids danger, pain, or difficulty

Now someone like Ali I do not consider a coward. Perhaps unpatriotic, but not a coward.

 

[Bengalzona]

A 19-year old me would have gone to Vietnam. But that is because at 19, I was already a soldier and going where you ordered to go doing what you are lawfully ordered to do are part of what you volunteer for.

You should note I used the word volunteer". Back in the 60's you could volunteer (and I probably still would have due to economics). But you also could have been drafted. It is hard for the younger crowd to envision what that is like today since we have had an all-volunteer armed forces since 1976. Back then the government could take the choice to serve away from you and send you fight wherever/whenever.

Of course, there were several ways to get out of it. If you were poor, you dodged the draft and moved to Canada. If you were rich, you could get a college deferment (but you still had to be in ROTC at most colleges), you could get a position in the National Guard like Bush Jr., or you could just pay a doctor to say you had a questionable medical condition and get a pass.

Really the only thing people hate about draft dodgers is that they were poor and didn't want to go. If you were rich and didn't want to go, it had no impact on your future whatsoever. Heck, you could even grow up and become President.

[*bfine32*]

(06-07-2019, 05:55 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: A 19-year old me would have gone to Vietnam. But that is because at 19, I was already a soldier and going where you ordered to go doing what you are lawfully ordered to do are part of what you volunteer for.

You should note I used the word volunteer". Back in the 60's you could volunteer (and I probably still would have due to economics). But you also could have been drafted. It is hard for the younger crowd to envision what that is like today since we have had an all-volunteer armed forces since 1976. Back then the government could take the choice to serve away from you and send you fight wherever/whenever.

Of course, there were several ways to get out of it. If you were poor, you dodged the draft and moved to Canada. If you were rich, you could get a college deferment (but you still had to be in ROTC at most colleges), you could get a position in the National Guard like Bush Jr., or you could just pay a doctor to say you had a questionable medical condition and get a pass.

Really the only thing people hate about draft dodgers is that they were poor and didn't want to go. If you were rich and didn't want to go, it had no impact on your future whatsoever. Heck, you could even grow up and become President.

I originally served 4 years in the Military and got out. While I was out I got a job as a District Manager for the Middletown Journal. I came into work one Sunday and grabbed a copy of the paper "hot off the press". Inside there was a story titled "Grandma goes to war". 

It was a piece about a Reservist getting called to Active Duty for Desert Storm. I said "Granny's not going to war without me" and the next day I went down and reenlisted. About 2 weeks later I was in  Saudi Arabia getting ready to go into Kuwait. So I'm pretty confident what a 19 year old bfine would have done and it wouldn't have been "tough minded".    

[Dill]

(06-07-2019, 05:55 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Of course, there were several ways to get out of it. If you were poor, you dodged the draft and moved to Canada. If you were rich, you could get a college deferment (but you still had to be in ROTC at most colleges), you could get a position in the National Guard like Bush Jr., or you could just pay a doctor to say you had a questionable medical condition and get a pass.

You forgot "get captured." That was one way to get out of the Vietnam war. As I understand it, some prisoners were even put up in a hotel for years. It was part of the Hilton chain; check out some of the rooms; they probably room service too. 
https://www.expedia.com/Hanoi-Hotels-Hilton-Hanoi-Opera.h533315.Hotel-Information
https://hiltongardeninn3.hilton.com/en/hotels/vietnam/hilton-garden-inn-hanoi-HANOPGI/accommodations/index.html

I guarantee you that if if Trump HAD gone to Vietnam and fought, he would not have taken the loser's way out.  

(06-07-2019, 05:55 PM)Bengalzona Wrote: Really the only thing people hate about draft dodgers is that they were poor and didn't want to go. If you were rich and didn't want to go, it had no impact on your future whatsoever. Heck, you could even grow up and become President.

  Some people avoided military service because they wanted to get on with jobs and the like. But many had moral objections to the war, and they were ready to pay the required price. Back in the '90s, one of the other soccer parents on my son's team had been a conscientious objector who was drafted and ended up spending two years in jail back in the '70s. Not sure I'd have the courage to do that, even though I objected to that war on moral grounds. If enough had done what he did, the war would have ended sooner with more lives saved.

I am not a true conscientious objector, though. I am fine with a war against Al Qaeda in A-stan to defend the US, but not with a war in Iraq to start off a New American Century.

[Mike M (the other one)]

Well I don't like war, but I do believe that EVERYONE right out of HS (both male and female) should go to a basic boot camp, no exceptions and learn how to use a weapon and spend at least one year in the Military. If we are at war, they would be strictly support. The ones that stay in past the required year are the ones that would be doing the fighting.

I did try to join up after HS, did the ASVAB test and afterwards the Air Force and Navy were trying to recruit me.
Ended up being rejected based on my hearing loss. Sucks, cause I was wanting to put in my 20 years and retire, then work as a civilian.

[Dill]

(06-11-2019, 12:57 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Well I don't like war, but I do believe that EVERYONE right out of HS (both male and female) should go to a basic boot camp, no exceptions and learn how to use a weapon and spend at least one year in the Military. If we are at war, they would be strictly support. The ones that stay in past the required year are the ones that would be doing the fighting.

I did try to join up after HS, did the ASVAB test and afterwards the Air Force and Navy were trying to recruit me.
Ended up being rejected based on my hearing loss. Sucks, cause I was wanting to put in my 20 years and retire, then work as a civilian.

I like the idea of making sure that every American has some skin in the game of US politics, but it would be very hard to put that many 18 year olds in uniform and train them.

What about a civic service alternative, like Germany used to have?

[*bfine32*]

(06-07-2019, 11:01 PM)Dill Wrote:   Some people avoided military service because they wanted to get on with jobs and the like. But many had moral objections to the war, and they were ready to pay the required price. Back in the '90s, one of the other soccer parents on my son's team had been a conscientious objector who was drafted and ended up spending two years in jail back in the '70s. Not sure I'd have the courage to do that, even though I objected to that war on moral grounds. If enough had done what he did, the war would have ended sooner with more lives saved.

I am not a true conscientious objector, though. I am fine with a war against Al Qaeda in A-stan to defend the US, but not with a war in Iraq to start off a New American Century.

And contrary to what Fred was asserting I said: Not everyone who didn't serve in Vietnam was a coward. If you chose not to serve out of principle and paid a price, then you could be considered courageous. 

As to me: I'm more of a Charge of the Light Brigade Guy. 

[Mike M (the other one)]

(06-11-2019, 06:59 PM)Dill Wrote: I like the idea of making sure that every American has some skin in the game of US politics, but it would be very hard to put that many 18 year olds in uniform and train them.

What about a civic service alternative, like Germany used to have?

Yes, I'm aware of the vast numbers of High School kids graduating each year.

Civic service of some kind definitely would be needed, that's why I was saying on the ones in for the long term should be the ones trained and sent into war like situations. The rest are support and definitely can fill in for civic duties. I'm sure we could find enough things for them to do to boost cities and help in many other ways.

Maybe do it boot camp (9-10 weeks) + 1 Year, that way as the latest group comes thru it they can be trained and relieve the previous group.