Family Security Act

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-10-2021, 02:14 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Well, not just that. Investment income, retirement income, etc. If you receive money, there are taxes involved, whether you worked for it or not.

Sure, Bel, but I don't think many people, if anyone, in need of aid for their children is raking in investment or retirement income.

[Dill]

(02-10-2021, 02:14 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: Well, not just that. Investment income, retirement income, etc. If you receive money, there are taxes involved, whether you worked for it or not.

Definitely true.  I'm not working this year, even part-time, and I will have to pay taxes.

[Belsnickel]

(02-10-2021, 02:19 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Sure, Bel, but I don't think many people, if anyone, in need of aid for their children is raking in investment or retirement income.

I'm aware. It's just a distinction that my tax accountant brain needs to bring up.

I will say, though, that there are not an insignificant number of people receiving retirement income or, say, disability for legitimate purposes that will need aid for their children. It's probably more common than you realize.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-10-2021, 02:30 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm aware. It's just a distinction that my tax accountant brain needs to bring up.

I will say, though, that there are not an insignificant number of people receiving retirement income or, say, disability for legitimate purposes that will need aid for their children. It's probably more common than you realize.

Grandchildren, yes.  Biological under eighteen children?  I doubt there's a statistically significant number of people in that boat, for retirement that is.  Disability, sure, I'll acknowledge that.  If we're discussing grandparents taking in grandchildren, there are already funds for this type of thing, KINGAP in CA for example.

[Belsnickel]

(02-10-2021, 02:44 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Grandchildren, yes.  Biological under eighteen children?  I doubt there's a statistically significant number of people in that boat, for retirement that is.  Disability, sure, I'll acknowledge that.  If we're discussing grandparents taking in grandchildren, there are already funds for this type of thing, KINGAP in CA for example.

Y'all have funding programs for that? Damn. That shit doesn't happen, here. They rely on the same programs parents rely on around these parts.

[BigPapaKain]

(02-10-2021, 01:15 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: I think a major point that you're missing here is that you actually have to work to pay income tax.  

Are we assuming that people who use government assistance are not working despite all evidence to the contrary? Believe it or not and despite whatever news source you use, independent studies have proven that those kind of welfare abusers are absolutely the minority of welfare cases. They also tend to vote Red, but that's neither here nor there (leopards gotta eat faces, after all).

[GMDino]

(02-10-2021, 05:45 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Are we assuming that people who use government assistance are not working despite all evidence to the contrary? Believe it or not and despite whatever news source you use, independent studies have proven that those kind of welfare abusers are absolutely the minority of welfare cases. They also tend to vote Red, but that's neither here nor there (leopards gotta eat faces, after all).

Wanted to jump in here and agree with this plus what Bels said earlier:  I'd rather have a couple cheats and take care of the majority that really need it than eliminate programs over a couple cheats when it comes to the poorest among us.  No program is perfect and the fraud levels of these welfare programs are nothing compared to the outright theft in DoD and other budget items.

And just for more about the topic here's some stuff on the "welfare queen" meme St. Ronnie talked about...that has always bothered me.

https://newrepublic.com/article/154404/myth-welfare-queen
(You get to read three free articles on the site)

https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/josh-levin-the-queen-book-review/
(You can read three free articles here too)

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/the-true-story-behind-the-welfare-queen-stereotype
(Video is 7:11 with a full transcript below it)

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-10-2021, 05:45 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Are we assuming that people who use government assistance are not working despite all evidence to the contrary? Believe it or not and despite whatever news source you use, independent studies have proven that those kind of welfare abusers are absolutely the minority of welfare cases. They also tend to vote Red, but that's neither here nor there (leopards gotta eat faces, after all).

Is all evidence to the contrary?  I use lots of news sources, but my position is also based on first hand experience.  Bel, correctly, pointed out that this is likely skewed in one direction, given my job, but that doesn't mean these people don't exist.  I'm just not a fan of incentivizing poor decision making.  If you added a clause such as once you're on public assistance you can no longer get extra help for future children for "X" years then I'd be more on board with this type of thing.  I guess it just rankles that I've lived my life responsibly but am being asked to pay for people who do not.  While I realize that all, if not most, people on assistance don't fall into that category I don't think enough is done to prevent the ones that do from leeching off the system.

[BigPapaKain]

(02-10-2021, 08:00 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Is all evidence to the contrary?  I use lots of news sources, but my position is also based on first hand experience.  Bel, correctly, pointed out that this is likely skewed in one direction, given my job, but that doesn't mean these people don't exist.  I'm just not a fan of incentivizing poor decision making.  If you added a clause such as once you're on public assistance you can no longer get extra help for future children for "X" years then I'd be more on board with this type of thing.  I guess it just rankles that I've lived my life responsibly but am being asked to pay for people who do not.  While I realize that all, if not most, people on assistance don't fall into that category I don't think enough is done to prevent the ones that do from leeching off the system.

So anecdotal evidence is better than independent studies performed by experts.

Got it.

If you're not too keen on paying for other people's mistakes, you should probably not live in a country where unpaid hospital bills get paid via subsidies to hospitals and the population can be counted on one hand.

So again I'll ask - why is the child tax credit such a big deal now when nobody has had anything to say against it since forever?

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-10-2021, 09:01 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: So anecdotal evidence is better than independent studies performed by experts.

Wait, did you link any that I ignored?

Quote:Got it.

Do you?

Quote:If you're not too keen on paying for other people's mistakes, you should probably not live in a country where unpaid hospital bills get paid via subsidies to hospitals and the population can be counted on one hand.

Huh?

Quote:So again I'll ask - why is the child tax credit such a big deal now when nobody has had anything to say against it since forever?

I've explained my position.  I don't like subsidizing bad decisions by other people.  If you disagree, then fine.  Just don't act like you've supplied a logical, coherent, fact based argument to the contrary.

[BigPapaKain]

(02-10-2021, 09:16 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Wait, did you link any that I ignored?



Do you?



Huh?


I've explained my position.  I don't like subsidizing bad decisions by other people.  If you disagree, then fine.  Just don't act like you've supplied a logical, coherent, fact based argument to the contrary.

I'm not going to bother posting things that are widely known and accepted. If you want to devalue facts because your multiple news sources and anecdotes shape your reality, so be it. I'm not in the business of doing other's homework.

And you haven't even touched my original point so I'll go ahead and reiterate it for a third, and final, time - why is the child tax credit such a big deal now when I'm sure at this point last year it never even crossed your little red mind?

If you're not going to answer it, don't bother replying. And if you dance around saying 'I DoN't CoDoNe OtHeR pEoPlE's BaD cHoIcEs' as if every child is some bastard born unplanned and out of wedlock, than we have nothing further to discuss.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-10-2021, 10:10 PM)BigPapaKain Wrote: I'm not going to bother posting things that are widely known and accepted. If you want to devalue facts because your multiple news sources and anecdotes shape your reality, so be it. I'm not in the business of doing other's homework.

If I can paraphrase others here, if you can't quote proof then you have no proof.

Quote:And you haven't even touched my original point so I'll go ahead and reiterate it for a third, and final, time - why is the child tax credit such a big deal now when I'm sure at this point last year it never even crossed your little red mind?

I've already said so. But feel free to continue to engage in banal insults.

Quote:If you're not going to answer it, don't bother replying. And if you dance around saying 'I DoN't CoDoNe OtHeR pEoPlE's BaD cHoIcEs' as if every child is some bastard born unplanned and out of wedlock, than we have nothing further to discuss.

Responding to your clownish attempts to make a point is rather painful, but I am making an honest effort. 

[BigPapaKain]

(02-11-2021, 12:05 AM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: If I can paraphrase others here, if you can't quote proof then you have no proof.



I've already said so. But feel free to continue to engage in banal insults.


Responding to your clownish attempts to make a point is rather painful, but I am making an honest effort. 

We're done here. You offer nothing but anecdotes and then demand evidence; nah player, I don't do that game.

[Belsnickel]

So, here is some data on SNAP recipients, which is one of the larger welfare programs in our country and for folks receiving other forms of welfare, it is almost assured that they will be receiving SNAP. https://data.census.gov/cedsci/table?q=s2201&tid=ACSST1Y2019.S2201&hidePreview=false

The most important thing to note, here is, that only 21.3% of households receiving SNAP benefits did not have anyone in the household working within the 12 months leading up to the data collection. Also, of the households receiving these benefits, around 48% have at least one disabled member.

Just some food for thought (get it?) when talking about welfare benefits.

[CKwi88]

Ah yes. I remember when my wife and I decided to have a kid. It didn't take us long to decide that the sleepless nights, extra expenses and stress were totally worth the 2k tax credit.

[BigPapaKain]

(02-11-2021, 09:20 AM)CKwi88 Wrote: Ah yes. I remember when my wife and I decided to have a kid. It didn't take us long to decide that the sleepless nights, extra expenses and stress were totally worth the 2k tax credit.

Haven't you heard? All children are mistakes according to some, and they're not going to pay for your mistake!

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-11-2021, 08:39 AM)BigPapaKain Wrote: We're done here. You offer nothing but anecdotes and then demand evidence; nah player, I don't do that game.

Something about glass houses and stones comes to mind, but I digress.  I don't know why you're in such a twist over this any ways.  You're awfully upset because I don't like the idea of incentivizing having more children, hence my proposal of no money for new children for "X" years if you're on public assistance.  I have zero issue with helping those in need, I have a major issue with continuing to shell out money to people who continue to conduct themselves in an irresponsible manner and expect use to subsidize their behavior. 

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-11-2021, 09:07 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: So, here is some data on SNAP recipients, which is one of the larger welfare programs in our country and for folks receiving other forms of welfare, it is almost assured that they will be receiving SNAP. https://data.census.gov/cedsci/table?q=s2201&tid=ACSST1Y2019.S2201&hidePreview=false

The most important thing to note, here is, that only 21.3% of households receiving SNAP benefits did not have anyone in the household working within the 12 months leading up to the data collection. Also, of the households receiving these benefits, around 48% have at least one disabled member.

Just some food for thought (get it?) when talking about welfare benefits.

Thank you for the numbers.  As for the disability, I'd be very interested in the nature of said disabilities.  A lot of people don't know that people collect SSI for learning disabilities and such.  I say this because when people hear disabled they tend to assume a person who is physically limited in a significant way, and this is certainly not always the case.

[Sociopathicsteelerfan]

(02-11-2021, 09:20 AM)CKwi88 Wrote: Ah yes. I remember when my wife and I decided to have a kid. It didn't take us long to decide that the sleepless nights, extra expenses and stress were totally worth the 2k tax credit.

I have no doubt.  

(02-11-2021, 09:24 AM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Haven't you heard? All children are mistakes according to some, and they're not going to pay for your mistake!

This post is 100% disingenuous bullshit.  You're not exactly making a great case for yourself in this thread.

[BigPapaKain]

(02-11-2021, 12:08 PM)Sociopathicsteelerfan Wrote: Something about glass houses and stones comes to mind, but I digress.  I don't know why you're in such a twist over this any ways.  You're awfully upset because I don't like the idea of incentivizing having more children, hence my proposal of no money for new children for "X" years if you're on public assistance.  I have zero issue with helping those in need, I have a major issue with continuing to shell out money to people who continue to conduct themselves in an irresponsible manner and expect use to subsidize their behavior. 

You do know that there is a cut off on that tax credit, right? The government stops giving it after the 3rd child.

Source: my sister has 4 and my MIL has 6, and both only got credit for 3.