Feminists aspects of Mozart's Don Giovanni

[fredtoast]

I was discussing this with my daughter and she claimed that prior to "Don Giovanni" the woman was usually the one portrayed as a seductress/manipulator who ended up being punished for her actions. Of course in Mozart's opera Don Juan gets carried to hell as punishment for his lifestyle of seduction and sexual exploitation of women.

My reply to her was "Well, uh. . . "

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[hollodero]

I don't think that's true. It would have been quite the scandal to portray a promiscuous woman in the late 18th century. And the Casanova story is distincly about a male person.

Don Giovanni kills Komtur in a duel, to be later brought to justice by the somewhat undead deceased. Also something not quite that adaptable to a woman's story.

Lastly, I never heard about that one.

[Dill]

(03-05-2021, 02:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I was discussing this with my daughter and she claimed that prior to "Don Giovanni" the woman was usually the one portrayed as a seductress/manipulator who ended up being punished for her actions.  Of course in Mozart's opera Don Juan gets carried to hell as punishment for his lifestyle of seduction and sexual exploitation of women.

My reply to her was "Well, uh.  .  .  "

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

In Viennese-Italian opera, or other literary/artistic forms as well?

Only with respect to the Don Juan story or in general--any woman on stage or in literature, in Europe or the U.S?

Generally women were not portrayed as seductresses in 18th century dramatic or literary art, but with some notable exceptions. E.g Moll Flanders.

17th cen. a different story.

[Belsnickel]

I'm an uncultured hillbilly, so I have no idea what y'all are talkin' about.

[Dill]

(03-06-2021, 07:57 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm an uncultured hillbilly, so I have no idea what y'all are talkin' about.

Now you've been exposed to culture!  I'm outta here.

[hollodero]

I'm uncultured as well, but my state is bound to force all informations about everything Mozart ever did into us so we get spoonfed something like a national identity. Skiing is not sufficient for that.

So you learn a little something in all brevity: Don Giovanni is Casanova, he wants to fu... well, seduce lots of women, by all means available, his servant counts 1003 successful enterings so far. He wants to seduce Donna Anna as well, but she's a good girl and runs for help. Don Giovanni kills her father Komtur, who followed up on all that expression of his daughter's stubborn refusal to become Ms. 1004, in a duel. Don Giovanni later comes across a statue of this Komtur guy, with a plaque stating that he's waiting here for the asshat who slayed him. Don Giovanni mockingly invites the statue for dinner, the statue responds yes. Imho quite the warnng sign, but well.
The statue indeed shows up, everyone is scared as hell, Don Giovanni plays it cool though. He accepts the statue's counterinvitation to come to dinner. Noticing its icecold hand, he suddenly realizes he'd better get scared as well. The statue demands he change his ways, Don Giovanni refuses and gets swallowed up by flames. All other characters, including those that added nothing to the story and were just there to sing about a bunch of stuff, move on with their lives.

It's a masterpiece and the opera of operas. So they say.

-- and also, again, I have a hard time picturing a woman in Don Giovanni's role. Though the idea that virgins are the highest prize would get some little extra appeal.

[*jason*]

(03-06-2021, 07:57 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm an uncultured hillbilly, so I have no idea what y'all are talkin' about.

There's a 20 year old, 36 second song by Rancid called Don Giovanni... From that I'm able to gather Don was making enemies. He killed Ana's father in a brutal swordfight, but the old man regrouped and came back from the dead to dragDon Giovanni to hell.

[hollodero]

(03-06-2021, 11:51 AM)jason Wrote: There's a 20 year old, 36 second song by Rancid called Don Giovanni... From that I'm able to gather Don was making enemies. He killed Ana's father in a brutal swordfight, but the old man regrouped and came back from the dead to dragDon Giovanni to hell.

OK that is actual brevity.

Don Giovanni: Lots of chanting and Giovanni dies.

[Dill]

(03-06-2021, 11:10 AM)hollodero Wrote: I'm uncultured as well, but my state is bound to force all informations about everything Mozart ever did into us so we get spoonfed something like a national identity. Skiing is not sufficient for that.

There are easier ways to learn about Mozart



And he is not the only world famous musician to come out of Vienna.

[hollodero]

(03-06-2021, 06:46 PM)Dill Wrote: There are easier ways to learn about Mozart



And he is not the only world famous musician to come out of Vienna.

Oh my, this is Falco.
Someone on a Bengals message board posted a picture of Falco.

Guess I have seen everything now.

Btw. Mozart is from Salzburg. At least they make all the money out of his name. And up to this day everyone from Salzburg is still better than anyone else on this world because Mozart was born there. It's true, they all will confirm it.

[BmorePat87]

(03-06-2021, 07:57 AM)Belsnickel Wrote: I'm an uncultured hillbilly, so I have no idea what y'all are talkin' about.

Yea, I'm lost here. 

[Dill]

(03-06-2021, 11:10 PM)hollodero Wrote: Oh my, this is Falco.
Someone on a Bengals message board posted a picture of Falco.

Guess I have seen everything now.

Btw. Mozart is from Salzburg. At least they make all the money out of his name. And up to this day everyone from Salzburg is still better than anyone else on this world because Mozart was born there. It's true, they all will confirm it.

Yah! Der Kommisar geht los!

Two years ago, my wife and I planned to go to Vienna this month, Salzburg too. 

My first pilgrimage to these holy (for musicians) sites. 

But the pandemic quashed that. We never even bought tickets. Now I many never go. 


PS When we lived in Germany, my wife's opera agent was based in Vienna--Ioan Holender, then his protoge, Erik Seiter, who's probably still active.

[*michaelsean*]

(03-06-2021, 11:10 PM)hollodero Wrote: Oh my, this is Falco.
Someone on a Bengals message board posted a picture of Falco.

Guess I have seen everything now.

Btw. Mozart is from Salzburg. At least they make all the money out of his name. And up to this day everyone from Salzburg is still better than anyone else on this world because Mozart was born there. It's true, they all will confirm it.

Salzburg exceptionalism.

[hollodero]

(03-07-2021, 03:43 PM)Dill Wrote: Yah! Der Kommisar geht los!

Oh no he does not. Der Kommissar geht um.

(03-07-2021, 03:43 PM)Dill Wrote: Two years ago, my wife and I planned to go to Vienna this month, Salzburg too. 

My first pilgrimage to these holy (for musicians) sites. 

But the pandemic quashed that. We never even  bought tickets. Now I many never go. 

Hm, why did you never step by when you lived way closer. Aside from that remark, well that's a shame I guess.

(03-07-2021, 03:43 PM)Dill Wrote: PS When we lived in Germany, my wife's opera agent was based in Vienna--Ioan Holender, then his protoge, Erik Seiter, who's probably still active.

Ioan Holender? That's mighty impressive.

[hollodero]

(03-08-2021, 11:25 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Salzburg exceptionalism.

It's a real thing. Ask anyone living there who the 100 most impressive people in this world are, and they would all name 100 Salzburg citizens.

[Dill]

(03-08-2021, 11:47 PM)hollodero Wrote: Oh no he does not. Der Kommissar geht um.

  Oh oh oh?

God I loved that guy.

(03-08-2021, 11:47 PM)hollodero Wrote: Hm, why did you never step by when you lived way closer. Aside from that remark, well that's a shame I guess.

Stupid. I went to many other places farther away--Paris, London, Rome, Budapest.  Figured I would always "get to it." Then suddenly had to move back and couldn't.    

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTlSjRMx5Ic