Finally getting some legitimate analysis of Kirkpatrick's play in '15

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-02-2016, 01:43 PM)jason Wrote: No. This is just proving that he isn't the worst in the league. He's just the worst on his team.

I personally never bought into whatever PFF ranked him. My eyeballs just told me that I expected more from him. There's still time I guess.

Yup, me too.  Personally, I would have rather kept Reggie, let Kirk take a paycut or walk, and let one of the young'uns take a crack at it, could they do any worse?  Maybe, maybe not.  Maybe this is his breakout season, I sure hope so.

[Essex Johnson]

(08-02-2016, 01:43 PM)jason Wrote: No. This is just proving that he isn't the worst in the league. He's just the worst on his team.

I personally never bought into whatever PFF ranked him. My eyeballs just told me that I expected more from him. There's still time I guess.

That makes no sense, so he is worse than jones? So what, he was the starter so he would be 2nd best on team actually at corner behind jones

[spazz70]

(08-02-2016, 12:02 PM)CageTheBengal Wrote: That's not true both Joseph and Hall saw more playing time towards the end of their rookie seasons but neither started from day one. We had Tory James and Deltha O Neal at the time starting and we eased them in just like we do now. The difference is James and O Neal weren't as good as the CBs we had starting in front of Kirk, Dennard and WJ3 so I think we were in more dire need of good secondary play. That and I believe a few injuries had Joseph and Hall contributing more quickly.

Game 1...2006....starting LCB...Joseph....  http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200609100kan.htm

Game 1...2007...starting RCB Leon Hall.... http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/200709100cin.htm

Please learn Bengals players before throwing out unknown facts...Thanks!!

[fredtoast]

(08-02-2016, 01:31 PM)Wyche Wrote: So.....what we've learned here, is what a lot of people have always maintained......he ain't terrible, he ain't very good. 

Where did we learn that "He ain't very good."?

Looks to me like he is probably top 20 in both "yards per target" and "Completion percentage allowed".  And he is top 10 in tackles by a CB.

That is pretty good.

[*jason*]

(08-02-2016, 08:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Where did we learn that "He ain't very good."?

Looks to me like he is probably top 20 in both "yards per target" and "Completion percentage allowed".  And he is top 10 in tackles by a CB.

That is pretty good.

I think what Wyche is saying, that Dre is mediocre. That's how I view him. I wonder who the guys ahead of him in tackles were. Were they top notch CBs or other medioce guys? It's a stretch to claim he's the worst CB in the league. That dude on the Steelers and the guy we kept targeting on the Seahawks are much worse. Ithink it's also a stretch to claim that he is anything more than blah.

[BengalChris]

Those stats just say that he's basically an average outside corner.

But what really caught my eye about Kirkpatrick last year was the schooling he took from Antonio Brown in the first quarter of the first game against Pittsburgh. The Steelers just marched right down the field at the opening bell and most of the completions on the drive were to AB covered by Kirkpatrick. Then we changed up on defense and eventually won the game.

Of course, that brought back memories of Dez Bryant running Kirkpatrick right off the field a couple of pre-seasons ago. That pre-season performance was really where people starting questioning Kirkpatrick's talent at corner. It was a ridiculously bad performance.

All that said, a healthy Kirkpatrick is better than an injured corner who isn't getting in the game. So I guess it's smart to keep drafting them high as we seem to need that depth every year. It's too bad that we've already lost one corner before the first pre-season game.

[THE Bigzoman]

"Legit" meaning it's a study for you to roll out your confirmation bias?

[Atomic Orange]

Dre is up for a big boy payday. He needs to earn that this year, more than ever now that we lost WJ3. Mediocre will simply not do for 1st round money.

[fredtoast]

(08-02-2016, 09:26 PM)jason Wrote: I think what Wyche is saying, that Dre is mediocre. That's how I view him.

I know exactly what Wyche and you are saying.

That is why I am posting stats to prove that you are wrong.

[fredtoast]

(08-02-2016, 10:11 PM)THE Bigzoman Wrote: "Legit" meaning it's a study for you to roll out your confirmation bias?

"Legit" meaning actually based on statistical analysis instead of "opinion" or PFF's highly flawed ranking system.

[Essex Johnson]

(08-02-2016, 08:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Where did we learn that "He ain't very good."?

Looks to me like he is probably top 20 in both "yards per target" and "Completion percentage allowed".  And he is top 10 in tackles by a CB.

That is pretty good.

The problem with people who try to judge their own team players against the rest of the NFL is they pretty watch the play of that player at a high percentage  and tend to just remember bad plays more than good plays plus they watch other players in the NFL very little or only on the highlight wheel of the NFL that is usually showing good plays by players.

Stats do help with shaping the overall performance of a player and take away a bit of the narrow perspection fans have on their own players at times.  What you have presented is a solid argument that Dre is not a terrible corner, had areas where he was a decent player and areas where he needs to improve but to try to rank him at the bottom of corner play last year seems like a flawed position.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-03-2016, 09:47 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: The problem with people who try to judge their own team players against the rest of the NFL is they pretty watch the play of that player at a high percentage  and tend to just remember bad plays more than good plays plus they watch other players in the NFL very little or only on the highlight wheel of the NFL that is usually showing good plays by players.

Stats do help with shaping the overall performance of a player and take away a bit of the narrow perspection fans have on their own players at times.  What you have presented is a solid argument that Dre is not a terrible corner, had areas where he was a decent player and areas where he needs to improve but to try to rank him at the bottom of corner play last year seems like a flawed position.

Yup, he's average to slightly above average.....not worthy of his draft status.  So Fred says he's 20th out of 64?  Wow, roll out the red carpet to Canton, and break out the yellow jackets!!!!

What I find even funnier is that PFF is killer when propping up the Piano Man, but terrible when evaluating Toast Kirkpatrick......so ya gotta take it for what it's worth.

EDIT: Top ten in tackles because he got schooled and allowed a completion, or is chasing a play down from behind.

[*jason*]

(08-03-2016, 12:26 PM)Wyche Wrote: Yup, he's average to slightly above average.....not worthy of his draft status.  So Fred says he's 20th out of 64?  Wow, roll out the red carpet to Canton, and break out the yellow jackets!!!!

What I find even funnier is that PFF is killer when propping up the Piano Man, but terrible when evaluating Toast Kirkpatrick......so ya gotta take it for what it's worth.

EDIT:  Top ten in tackles because he got schooled and allowed a completion, or is chasing a play down from behind.

Yes.

On an excellent defense, mediocre looks like "sucks".

[Shake n Blake]

(08-02-2016, 12:20 PM)OSUfan Wrote: If you have to take a first round selection that has to contribute immediately then I am guessing your football team is not necessarily where you would like it to be. Not having to have your first round selection contribute is a very good thing.

I like many others feel there are position over others that warrant first round selections and I would put CB and OT near the top of that list.

Boy, you must think our team really stinks considering we've started rookies like Gio (2nd rounder), Bodine (4th), Burfict (undrafted), Dalton (2nd), Hill (2nd), etc etc.

Contrary to popular belief (on these boards), good teams still start some rookies. Almost every season.

[fullonbehavior]

(08-02-2016, 12:07 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: You really don't think this team could have benefitted from an upgrade anywhere on the roster over the last couple years?  Perhaps a first round pass rusher or linebacker could have helped get them over the playoff drought??

Not if you are reaching for that player.  Our 1st round corners, unless hurt, have contributed greatly to this team in the form of special teams.  People overlook the importance of these contributions. 

[*bfine32*]

(08-03-2016, 08:49 AM)fredtoast Wrote: "Legit" meaning actually based on statistical analysis instead of "opinion" or PFF's highly flawed ranking system.

Would you care to elaberate on Football outsiders non-flawed ranking system?

[GreenCornBengal]

20/64 and his teammate was higher than he was.... I'll take that anyday. To have a good team, you need to have average players as well to balance out the checkbook. Hopefully Dre will know his place when contract negotiations begin... something I doubt a man who used to go by "swag" will do.

[*rfaulk34*]

(08-03-2016, 03:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Would you care to elaberate on Football outsiders non-flawed ranking system?

Wait a minute...

Are you implying that because he doesn't like PFF, but does like FO...that there may be some bias there? o_O

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-03-2016, 04:22 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: 20/64 and his teammate was higher than he was.... I'll take that anyday. To have a good team, you need to have average players as well to balance out the checkbook. Hopefully Dre will know his place when contract negotiations begin... something I doubt a man who used to go by "swag" will do.

Oh, we could certainly do worse.....no question.  As was mentioned earlier, the play by his counterparts on this defense makes him look a little worse than he is.  The only issue is going to be cash demands, and he hasn't lived up to being a first rounder.  These points just get blown out of proportion by some folks, and others (like myself) that have used hyperbole to point out his deficiencies.

[Essex Johnson]

(08-03-2016, 12:26 PM)Wyche Wrote: Yup, he's average to slightly above average.....not worthy of his draft status.  So Fred says he's 20th out of 64?  Wow, roll out the red carpet to Canton, and break out the yellow jackets!!!!

What I find even funnier is that PFF is killer when propping up the Piano Man, but terrible when evaluating Toast Kirkpatrick......so ya gotta take it for what it's worth.

EDIT:  Top ten in tackles because he got schooled and allowed a completion, or is chasing a play down from behind.

I would say slightly above average is just fine when you look at the success rate of all corners even those in the 1st round.  Lets just reflect on his draft year and the year after in the 1st round.

Morris Claiborne #6 pick-  I would call this a bust for Dallas
Mark Barron #7 pick- TB traded him for 4/6th round pick, 3rd year in.. Bust
Stephen Gilmore #10 pick- has been a solid pick
Dee Miliner - #9 pick-  has not lived up to his draft pick,, possible bust
Desmond Trufant- #22-  Success
DJ Hayden #12-  might be a backup this year, Raiders declined 5th year option.. not looking good.
All of theses picks except Trufant were  above Dre's #17.  Outside of Gilmore and Trufant, I would take Dre over all the others.