Fixing the Public Schools k-12

[*bfine32*]

One thing that drives me crazy is the different formats used by schools for their transcripts.

[xxlt]

(11-29-2016, 12:53 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Let's try a different approach to things now instead of arguing over the Politics. We have some good minds in here with different ideas, let's see if we can come up with ways to improve public education for kids.


We all know there needs to be some major overhaul done to help public inner city schools.

1. I propose that all teachers that teach a required class (English, Math, Science and History) be paid at the same level, where teachers that teach electives get slightly less, and of course the base salary is based off of tenure.

2. Inner city teachers would get a pay boost vs those teaching in the sub-burbs.

3. Curriculum needs to be the same for all grade levels at all schools across the US.
I find it silly that if someone moves from 1 area to another area their kid could be behind/ahead of the other students by a significant margin. They should all be roughly taught at the same speed with the same books etc.

4. I'm not a huge fan of the voucher system that allows parents to move their kids from public to private, but I understand the private schools can be better run and get better results (grade wise) for their kids.

in your opinions, what other big/little things can be done to help start improving the public schools?

Good thread!

I numbered your points to make it easier to respond. On point one, there are some pretty big assumption baked in here. Music, shop, computer programming - these are all electives. Paying the teachers of those subjects less suggest that producing musicians, auto mechanics, and computer programmers is not important. It also suggest those who teach those skills are "worth less" than those who teach the basics. The market suggests the opposite. I think rather than paying specialists/those who teach electives less or more it probably makes more sense to have the same pay scale across the board, although there are arguments to be made both ways for why some teachers should make more.

On point two, most school systems already pay more for teaching in urban schools - and they still struggle to find and retain teachers. I have said for years it is a joke that schools have cops inside schools. I think they should be outside the schools, keeping those who have no business inside on the outside. And, the policy should be if the police have to be called in for your conduct, then you can kiss your educational opportunity in public schools goodbye. I also say public education should not be compulsory. It should be voluntary. Want to be ignorant? Good night and god bless. Want to learn it all on the streets? Some who did that went on to build empires. God speed. But want to come into a public school as a volunteer who seeks the privilege of learning? OK, here is the code of conduct - violate it and accept the consequences up to and including suspension or expulsion. Suddenly classroom management would not be the challenge it is now, when you have hordes of students who don't want to learn creating an environment where it is difficult to learn.

On point three, there is another big assumption baked in here: schools are learning factories, and all of them should turn out the same product at the same speed. If that is what you want, no problem. Have it your way. But I challenge the assumption. If a kid is reading on an 8th grade level in the 1st grade, why is he in a first grade reading class reading whatever the modern equivalent of "See Spot Run" is? You are not serving that child, or his peers, or his community by doing this. The biggest problem in education is the factory/assembly line model. The paradigm needs to change so individual strengths and weaknesses are acknowledged, and there are some out there advocating for this.

On point four, here is the thing about why private schools get better results: they don't have to take all comers. The public schools do. If the private schools had to serve the public school population, suddenly their results would not be so much better.

My opinions on this subject, btw, were dramatically shaped by a Northern Kentucky school administrator with over 40 years of education experience who now teaches teachers.

[xxlt]

(11-30-2016, 01:36 AM)Beaker Wrote: 1. Parents need to give a shit. Too many have other "more important" things to worry about. And they need to instill the value of an education in their kids. I continually hear that teachers need to get kids more engaged with more interesting lessons. I have some very innovative lessons in science using virtual labs, student led projects, collaborative activities, etc. But if there is zero internal motivation, none of that matters.

2. Fund public schools with sales taxes as opposed to property taxes.

# 2 is a great idea.

[GMDino]

(11-30-2016, 01:36 AM)Beaker Wrote: 1. Parents need to give a shit. Too many have other "more important" things to worry about. And they need to instill the value of an education in their kids. I continually hear that teachers need to get kids more engaged with more interesting lessons. I have some very innovative lessons in science using virtual labs, student led projects, collaborative activities, etc. But if there is zero internal motivation, none of that matters.

2. Fund public schools with sales taxes as opposed to property taxes.

When our daughter was just starting school we had a big debate in our house.

I went to Catholic school my whole life, my wife went to public school.

In the end we went with the Catholic school because she was quiet/shy and we felt the smaller building and class size would benefit her.  She came back after the first day like she owned the place...we kind of underestimated her!  LOL!

But she made good friends there and learned a lot.

In 7th grade she switched to public and so did our son who was in 3rd at the time.  Both have excelled.  She was the valedictorian at the Career Center for he school and he is taking a heavy load of College Prep courses as a Freshman.

In the end, even though we made the decision for the private school, we agreed that it didn't matter where she went as long as we were involved and cared about their school work and education.
 

[Mike M (the other one)]

I'm using a numbering system so that we don't have to keep quoting the whole thing, just punch in the number you are responding to (or you can quote and remove the others your choice).

To recap everything so far:

Good Ideas:
1. All Teachers should be paid at the same rate per tenure no matter what they teach.

2. All schools need to have the ability to use interactive teleconferencing to help expand electives so that kids can have more options to learn what they want to learn. Also helps the schools by not having to hire a teacher for 1-2 classes for a few students. Could also be used for advanced students, for example, a high aptitude math student could now tap into a higher math level without leaving the school. This would really be great for kids from the poorer or more rural areas where it’s not easily accessible due to lack of money or high travel times.

3. Culture needs to be changed, we need to emphasize education starting at an early level.

4. Starting around the 5th grade, kids need to start planning for a career, once 7th grade starts, they will be doing courses that pertain to their choices. Later on, if possible, send them to a vocational school to learn their trade and get certified and make sure that their specialized courses count as college credits to give them a boost there.

5. Better Education/Training from post-secondary programs for Teachers.

6. Require all teachers to be mentors for their first 3 years before giving them their own class.

7. Change tenure so that teachers who fall below an evaluation threshold can have their tenure suspended, making it easier to fine poorly performing teachers.

8. Move kids with disabilities into the General Classrooms vs excluding them by putting them in special classes.

9. No Penalties for teachers that fail kids (Pay should not be based on good or bad student performance).

10 Voucher system is not the solution, just a possible band-aid.

Needs expanding on:
11. Taxes for schools should come from a sales tax and not from property taxes and distributed evenly (not all properties in school districts are even, so a state sales tax corrects this). Expanding on this, should we increase the sales tax to include paying for emergency services salaries (Police, Firemen, Emergency crews) and drop property taxes altogether?
Figure out a way to eliminate parents from the learning equation (parents are always welcome to be involved, but not all parents show much of an interest in their kids schools and these are the ones we need to focus on boosting).

12. Even with pay boosts and/or loan forgiveness, we are still struggling to get teachers into the inner city schools. What other incentives can we offer?

13. We all seem to agree that some more mandatory classes should be required such as
Finance (balancing checkbook/savings etc)
Basic Cooking (learn how to make more than roman noodles)
Other possibilities: Auto Basic Maintenance, Introduction to Guns? Any other suggestions?

14. Increase the school day by one hour to help all students get homework completed and especially to help those that have no help at home?

15. Standardized testing should not be mandated by Federal Government, what kind of assessment should we use?

16. How can we make sure that Technology upgrades/updates are being done correctly? I get frustrated when I see school districts claim they lost 2.5 million due to a poor technology upgrade. We need to make sure that all schools are using the same software to make it easier for the teleconferencing and students as well. Should we work out a deal with a company such as Microsoft that we get a huge discount for using their software suite? (I know we probably already have something similar, but it could be renegotiated if we make it the standard for all schools?)

17. We need a way for teachers to teach other teachers when a particular method works well with the students. Maybe use the teleconferencing to record/monitor said teacher and share those videos with the other teachers?
18. Code of conduct policy, the teachers and students both need to follow a set of rules that each understands. Of course exceptions will need to be accounted for.


Still lost on me:
19. Why are so many people against Common Core if it’s purpose is to get kids from all across the US on roughly the same level of education by grade?

20. Xxlt brought up a point that I had forgotten about. Cops. I would prefer that each school have a cop (my opinion) that monitors the entrance. Xxlt thinks cops should be on the outside patrolling rather than on the inside. Once in High School they can still monitor before and after school, but during school maybe teach kids about guns and gun safety? Thoughts?


If I missed something let me know.

[Au165]

(12-01-2016, 03:02 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: 13. We all seem to agree that some more mandatory classes should be required such as
Finance (balancing checkbook/savings etc)
Basic Cooking (learn how to make more than roman noodles)
Other possibilities: Auto Basic Maintenance, Introduction to Guns? Any other suggestions?

My finance requirement wasn't even really for the kids sake, but for the country. We caused the financial meltdown for a multitude of reasons, but the fact a large number of people didn't realize what you are approved for and what you can afford are vastly different things didn't help. I don't want to start down the road of requirements in cooking, auto, guns, etc. because hours are limited to teach as is, but financial responsibility seems like something that we need as a country to protects us all down the road.

Let them go out to eat, let them take their car to a mechanic, but when they go to get a mortgage and the broker is actually ***** them they need to realize that.

As for a lot of your other points, lots of ideas that will require a ton of money. The idea of a cop at every school sounds nice but that will be a MASSIVE expense. Putting it in perspective there are over 100k schools in the U.S. and roughly 50k have full time SROs right now. To outfit the other half at a conservative rate of 50k a year your talking about $2.5 BILLION to make this one item alone happen.

[BmorePat87]

(12-01-2016, 03:02 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Still lost on me:
19. Why are so many people against Common Core if it’s purpose is to get kids from all across the US on roughly the same level of education by grade?

Bad PR campaign and poor roll out in math. Back when I was involved with my county's Republican Party in 2010-2012, people were dead set that it was a curriculum and that it was mandated at the national level. Both are incorrect. Even would I told people this, they disagreed. Breitbart had articles about these Marxist lesson provided by Common Core. It was just a lesson created by a random teacher that aligned to the standards. It also wasn't Marxist, it just had students read passages of the Communist Manifesto and analyze it (compare it to other works from around the same time and compare what it says to what the history books say). I said to a guy who posted the story on Facebook "You can go to the website, here's the link. No where on there are there lessons you have to teach, it's just standards". His response was "Well, that's not what I got when I did my research". LOL. People believe a lot of false things about it.

Also, the math roll out wasn't executed very well in many states. The "new math" is good and teaches kids HOW math works instead of just memorizing things. The problem is many teachers were not properly trained, so occasionally you get a teacher who makes a mistake in grading or making an assignment, and then the internet goes crazy over it. It's also  hard for parents who didn't learn it that way or whose brains don't operate that way (because they were only taught to memorize times tables or write things out a certain way), so you got these dumb articles "I'm an engineer and I don't understand Common Core Math". 

I'm the kind of person who adds large numbers in my head by rounding them up to be divisible by 10 or 100 then I subtract what I added at the end. So if it is 3267 + 1254, I'd just add 3300+1254, get 4554 then subtract 33 and have 4521. Or if I multiple a number, I'll break it up. So if it is 324 x 22, I know 324 x 10 is 3240, so x 20 would be 6480. Then I know 324 x 2 is 648, so I add 648+6480 and have 7128. That's how perceive numbers. I wasn't taught that, I just do that. Common Core teaches beginner forms of that kind of thinking. 

(12-02-2016, 09:51 AM)Au165 Wrote: My finance requirement wasn't even really for the kids sake, but for the country. We caused the financial meltdown for a multitude of reasons, but the fact a large number of people didn't realize what you are approved for and what you can afford are vastly different things didn't help. I don't want to start down the road of requirements in cooking, auto, guns, etc. because hours are limited to teach as is, but financial responsibility seems like something that we need as a country to protects us all down the road.

Let them go out to eat, let them take their car to a mechanic, but when they go to get a mortgage and the broker is actually ***** them they need to realize that.

As for a lot of your other points, lots of ideas that will require a ton of money. The idea of a cop at every school sounds nice but that will be a MASSIVE expense. Putting it in perspective there are over 100k schools in the U.S. and roughly 50k have full time SROs right now. To outfit the other half at a conservative rate of 50k a year your talking about $2.5 BILLION to make this one item alone happen.

Maryland decided a few years back that financial literacy should be required for all students. So in my county, we add it to the end of American Government (the class I teach). After we finish with our required assessment in May (need to pass to graduate) for my class, we spend the rest of the year with the Fin Lit unit. I go over goal setting, making a budget, find jobs based on Myers Briggs results, learn about pay/paychecks, insurance, bank accounts, getting student loans, investing, and writing a check. We also do a project where they get an income and have to find a job that has that income, find an apartment, find a used car, make a weekly grocery list, and pay their other monthly expenses. 

We used to have a whole year long financial literature math class, but they stopped offering it. There are all of these requirements from the government for only offering rigorous math courses and it didn't make the cut. 

[Au165]

(12-02-2016, 11:15 AM)BmorePat87 Wrote: Maryland decided a few years back that financial literacy should be required for all students. So in my county, we add it to the end of American Government (the class I teach). After we finish with our required assessment in May (need to pass to graduate) for my class, we spend the rest of the year with the Fin Lit unit. I go over goal setting, making a budget, find jobs based on Myers Briggs results, learn about pay/paychecks, insurance, bank accounts, getting student loans, investing, and writing a check. We also do a project where they get an income and have to find a job that has that income, find an apartment, find a used car, make a weekly grocery list, and pay their other monthly expenses. 

We used to have a whole year long financial literature math class, but they stopped offering it. There are all of these requirements from the government for only offering rigorous math courses and it didn't make the cut. 

That is a good start. I was pretty financial literate early on, but honestly was about clueless in terms of mortgages. It would be nice to get some exposure to different things in that process. Also don't scare people about using credit, but also showing the impacts of what not paying off CC each month does and why pay day loans and similar things really shouldn't be used.

I will say anything is better than nothing, and not to bash you, but it should be taught by someone with a finance background. If we want to be serious about this we should be hiring finance teachers for high schools. Obviously it wasn't your choice, simply an observation about the setup.

[BmorePat87]

(12-02-2016, 11:29 AM)Au165 Wrote: I will say anything is better than nothing, and not to bash you, but it should be taught by someone with a finance background. If we want to be serious about this we should be hiring finance teachers for high schools. Obviously it wasn't your choice, simply an observation about the setup.

No, I agree. We have economics teachers, but it's not a big program in our county, and ours teaches Modern World History in addition to Econ. The schools that serve wealthier communities, however, always seem to have a lot of kids in Econ AP.

[fredtoast]

(12-02-2016, 11:29 AM)Au165 Wrote: That is a good start. I was pretty financial literate early on, but honestly was about clueless in terms of mortgages. It would be nice to get some exposure to different things in that process. Also don't scare people about using credit, but also showing the impacts of what not paying off CC each month does and why pay day loans and similar things really shouldn't be used.

Teen pregnancy is down for a lot of reasons, but I saw one presentation for high school boys that I though would be pretty effective.  It basically laid out how they would be responsible for half of the cost of raising a child and how much that added up to over 18 years. 

[Benton]

13 & 20

13—

Quote:Finance (balancing checkbook/savings etc)
Basic Cooking (learn how to make more than roman noodles)
Other possibilities: Auto Basic Maintenance, Introduction to Guns? Any other suggestions?

All good suggestions. One thing I think a lot of parents forget is that when you're young (and typically broke) you have to do stuff for yourself. Fix your own plumbing because you can't pay $80 an hour labor to get a hairball out of the drain, or change your own oil because you don't have $45 for someone to turn a bolt.

I've advocated for some kind of introductions to guns in the past. It usually doesn't go over well, but I think basic gun safety is important for kids to learn.

20 —

Quote:Xxlt thinks cops should be on the outside patrolling rather than on the inside. Once in High School they can still monitor before and after school, but during school maybe teach kids about guns and gun safety? Thoughts?

I grew up about 20 miles from the Heath High School shooting back in the 90s, and went to a neighboring district. I've interviewed some of the survivors, and I've talked to schools and law enforcement who both agree that one of the best ways to prevent school shootings is to have an actual police officer with training in the building. Personally, I agree.

The problem is — like anything else — funding. Even for a low paid officer you're talking $65k+ (by the time you factor in insurance, salary, benefits, etc) as a cost to the district. If you've got just eight schools in your district, that's over half a million dollars each year for the district. There used to be federal grants for school resource officers to offset those costs, ranging from covering the cost to 50/50. But they don't have as many of those dollars as they used to (or at least they don't dole them out like they used to). Heath's district, if I remember right, now has three full-time officers, all paid for locally, but they have to cover 11 different sites.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(12-02-2016, 02:00 PM)Benton Wrote: 13 & 20

13—

All good suggestions. One thing I think a lot of parents forget is that when you're young (and typically broke) you have to do stuff for yourself. Fix your own plumbing because you can't pay $80 an hour labor to get a hairball out of the drain, or change your own oil because you don't have $45 for someone to turn a bolt.

I've advocated for some kind of introductions to guns in the past. It usually doesn't go over well, but I think basic gun safety is important for kids to learn.

20 —

I grew up about 20 miles from the Heath High School shooting back in the 90s, and went to a neighboring district. I've interviewed some of the survivors, and I've talked to schools and law enforcement who both agree that one of the best ways to prevent school shootings is to have an actual police officer with training in the building. Personally, I agree.

The problem is — like anything else — funding. Even for a low paid officer you're talking $65k+ (by the time you factor in insurance, salary, benefits, etc) as a cost to the district. If you've got just eight schools in your district, that's over half a million dollars each year for the district. There used to be federal grants for school resource officers to offset those costs, ranging from covering the cost to 50/50. But they don't have as many of those dollars as they used to (or at least they don't dole them out like they used to). Heath's district, if I remember right, now has three full-time officers, all paid for locally, but they have to cover 11 different sites.

Yea I know gun safety wouldn't go over with everyone, but it still should be taught. They don't need to be required to shoot it, just learn about them so that they can respect the guns.

Yes, an officer in the building is the best deter that I can think of as well. If serious, funding can be found. Besides, this would create a good amount of jobs. As humans we always protect what is most valuable to us, go to a bank, armed guard(s). It's like our children's lives aren't as valuable as money..

[Mike M (the other one)]

Been wracking my brain this past weekend to figure out a way to either get parents more involved or remove them completely from the equation.

Don't know how receptive this would be, but I came up with an idea to possibly get them more motivated.

Do it like we do Jury Duty.

Each Parent will be required to spend at least 1 day in their child's home room class as a Teacher's Aide (they stay with that teacher even if their kids go to another room).

I wanted to go with 2 days minimum, but I realize this might run into problems with parents that have multiple children and since I said each parent, it's also possible that we run into the problems of 1 parent deceased, deployed or flat out physically unable to attend (lives far away). In these cases, the first parent might have to go both times. In the event of Deployed, they would get preferential treatment for the dates that they might be available to attend.

It's a start, of course there will be some parents that just flat out refuse to come, not too sure yet about what the punishment should be.

Ok expand on it?

[Mike M (the other one)]

NO comments good or bad about possibly setting up Parent Duty?
I'm curious if people think it might work.

[Belsnickel]

(12-07-2016, 12:35 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: NO comments good or bad about possibly setting up Parent Duty?
I'm curious if people think it might work.

I don't think it could. I mean, with so many homes without a stay-at-home parent it would be difficult to do that sort of thing. How can you tell a parent that has to work all throughout the school day that they have to do that?

[GMDino]

(12-07-2016, 12:39 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I don't think it could. I mean, with so many homes without a stay-at-home parent it would be difficult to do that sort of thing. How can you tell a parent that has to work all throughout the school day that they have to do that?

Heck it's hard for those of us who WANT to be involved to do things because the school will schedule things to start at 4 or 5 in the afternoon and we both work until 5.

[Belsnickel]

(12-07-2016, 12:44 PM)GMDino Wrote: Heck it's hard for those of us who WANT to be involved to do things because the school will schedule things to start at 4 or 5 in the afternoon and we both work until 5.

Honestly, this is why I have stayed out of this thread for the most part. What I would like to see happen would require culture shifts not just with education, but with the American attitude towards work. It's some pie in the sky dreaming.

[Rotobeast]

I think security measures could be provided by retired military members.
I know many who would volunteer.
Furthermore, I'd ask many retirees to contribute and aid in teaching.
I'd bus them in from nursing homes, if necessary.
Kids are more respectful to the elderly (for the most part) and the oldest folks would appreciate the interaction.
It could also provide a mental health benefit to the volunteers, by staying engaged.

[Mike M (the other one)]

(12-07-2016, 12:39 PM)Belsnickel Wrote: I don't think it could. I mean, with so many homes without a stay-at-home parent it would be difficult to do that sort of thing. How can you tell a parent that has to work all throughout the school day that they have to do that?

Oh your right, I forgot that not all companies pay for Jury Duty (mine does) so I didn't think about it.
On a side note, the employer would be required to pay the employee for a normal day with normal pay and submit a compensation form for the money given and get reimbursed for it. A stay at home parent could be given a minimum salary for the time accrued. The school would then be responsible for submitting it.

I know it's spending money, but it forces the parents to get involved and I would say on average it might add about $200 per student for this.

[Belsnickel]

(12-07-2016, 12:49 PM)Mike M (the other one) Wrote: Oh your right, I forgot that not all companies pay for Jury Duty (mine does) so I didn't think about it.
On a side note, the employer would be required to pay the employee for a normal day with normal pay and submit a compensation form for the money given and get reimbursed for it. A stay at home parent could be given a minimum salary for the time accrued. The school would then be responsible for submitting it.

I know it's spending money, but it forces the parents to get involved and I would say on average it might add about $200 per student for this.

My employer does, as well. I actually get paid twice for jury duty, once by the state and once by the county, but I digress. I just think ti would be a hard sell because it would require statutory action to force employers to allow for time off for that, and I don't think that would pass muster.