For anyone wishing to defend PA, and Bengals coaching.....

[fredtoast]

(12-07-2018, 02:52 PM)Wyche Wrote: LOL.....I don't think Vince Lombardi could get anything out of Og.  

I agree.

But didn't we say the same thing about Bodine?

[fredtoast]

The funny thing about all of this is that it used to work the other way.

Nate Livings, Stacy Andrews, and Anthony Collins all looked good enough playing under Alexander to get big free agent contracts to start for other teams.  But they did not perform as well under other coaches a they did under Paul.  And Evan mathis was cut by two different teams before coming to the Bengals and playing at a very high level in '09.

[BengalChris]

(12-07-2018, 01:38 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Evidently, Bodine's replacement is feeling some heat:

"Yeah, I go to Kroger's and people have issues, so it's fun. You laugh but I'm serious."

“I overset a guy and gave up a sack and everybody wants my head."

- Billy Price

I'm not surprised people point it out, we point it out on this board. He'll improve though. Merv will be gone soon.

Also, people might forget that he only played center for 1 year at OSU, the other years he played OG.

And, if he doesn't improve he'll be replaced. I was happy we addressed the position by taking him, but I'll push for him to be replaced if he doesn't get it together. I'm not attached to any one player on this team, except maybe Green.

[McC]

(12-07-2018, 02:10 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Price is young enough to still improve...He's probably the least of my worries. Although, he could still not pan out.

IMO, worst case scenario, he'd be an upgrade at RG.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-07-2018, 03:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I agree.

But didn't we say the same thing about Bodine?

Duly noted.....I would say the biggest difference between the two is that I never questioned Bodine's heart or work ethic.  

[BengalChris]

(12-07-2018, 02:52 PM)Wyche Wrote: LOL.....I don't think Vince Lombardi could get anything out of Og.  


Good insight on Buffalo....could be right.  However, it begs the question....if your players are struggling to play in your scheme, why not change it up to fit your personnel?  Seems archaic and stubborn to me.

You have a great point. But looking at Marvin's time here, has he ever operated that way at all?

Guys like AJ Green are good in any system, but how many players at any position out there are like that?

The whole thing looks more and more like a coaching fail. Makes you wonder about other guys who have talent, but don't live up to it with this team. Maybe, and I bite my tongue for saying this, but maybe Andy Dalton is really elite and it's Marvin's failures that the playoffs have been so bad. The entire perception of Dalton would be different if the offense had produced in those 4 games like it did in the regular season. Just throwing that out there - and I know most will be shocked to hear that from me - but it's worth mentioning.

[fredtoast]

(12-07-2018, 04:14 PM)BengalChris Wrote: You have a great point. But looking at Marvin's time here, has he ever operated that way at all?

Yes he did.  In 2009 when most of his starting offensive linemen were undrafted free agents with almost zero experience he changed up the scheme and started using a lot of 6 man lines.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-07-2018, 04:14 PM)BengalChris Wrote: You have a great point. But looking at Marvin's time here, has he ever operated that way at all?

Guys like AJ Green are good in any system, but how many players at any position out there are like that?

The whole thing looks more and more like a coaching fail. Makes you wonder about other guys who have talent, but don't live up to it with this team. Maybe, and I bite my tongue for saying this, but maybe Andy Dalton is really elite and it's Marvin's failures that the playoffs have been so bad. The entire perception of Dalton would be different if the offense had produced in those 4 games like it did in the regular season. Just throwing that out there - and I know most will be shocked to hear that from me - but it's worth mentioning.

I don't think Andy is elite.  I think he is better than 0-4 in the playoffs though.  I mean, he didn't choke in college, neither did Palmer. 

You make a great point on AJ Green.  Having guys of that caliber has, I think, masked deficiencies.  Guys like him, Whit, Burfict (when he was good), Geno, Mixon, Eifert (when healthy), and to some extent....Andy, Dunlap, Pacman, etc. (plus the greats during the Palmer era) are going to produce no matter who is coaching.  They're that good.  

When the ineptitude manifests is when the pressure is the greatest and intensity and scheming are amped up to the nth degree.  It's noted in all sports that the postseason is when winning teams step up their game, and the coaching shines the most.  

For example....when Tyler Eifert goes down, why does the offense struggle so mightily?  I mean, can't anyone else on the team attack the seams?  Throwing up the middle of the field, and even deep up the middle of the field is your QBs strength.  Why can't we adapt to that?  It's mind boggling.  I understand it a little when AJ goes down....I mean, he IS elite.  I just don't understand why this staff can't always coach to the strength of its players under Marvin, and why it can't adjust quickly enough to what other coaches try to do to them.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-07-2018, 04:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes he did.  In 2009 when most of his starting offensive linemen were undrafted free agents with almost zero experience he changed up the scheme and started using a lot of 6 man lines.

He did do that, you are correct.  It limited the passing attack, but at least it improved the protection and gave Benson room to maneuver.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-06-2018, 06:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Because it did work for a lot of players.

For the 8 year period from '07 through '15 PFF ranked the Bengals O-line number one in the league in pass protection.  And PFF's unit rankings are not based on the same subjective formula as the individual rankings that I rail against all the time.

Bodine just worked better in the buffalo system.  Just like Rich Braham worked better in the Bengals system than he did with the Cards who cut him before we signed him.

Well then why did PA pick Bodine for his system if he didn't fit it?

Trying to put square pegs in a round hole is what it was.

The Line sure blocked much better once they adjusted the scheme last season, this is not a coincidence.

PA just didn't have it anymore, lets call it like it is and this is another big sign of this truth.

Bodine was really bad here, he goes to another team and a new Line coach, plays well.

PA was here, went to another team and got fired.

[XsandOs]

(12-07-2018, 03:06 PM)Wyche Wrote: I think it showed some improvement last season when Lazor mixed it up.  This was just one of the many reasons I wanted to move on from PA for the better part of 5 years.

I also agree about the current situation and adding another piece or two.  Ideally, a top notch LT, and moving Glenn to RT would be something I would like to be able to do.  What would be your thoughts on that?

Also, great analysis on picking out these schemes, and who's using what.  You've pointed out something about what Pollack is doing that I hadn't noticed.

Given that after LT, the RG is the most important position on the line for pass blocking, I would vote for having our second best pass blocker at RG.

Yes, Pollack is trying to make things simple and be aggressive. Ideally, if you have the personnel, vertical sets are best. It can buy you an extra second and minimizes stunt damage. But if you don't have the personnel, then you get defenders in your QBs lap regularly, because you are susceptible to bull rushes - let alone batted down passes.   

[fredtoast]

(12-07-2018, 05:52 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: PA just didn't have it anymore, lets call it like it is and this is another big sign of this truth.

I agree.  The drafting and development of Bodine was bad, but it was only a fourth round pick and the guy he was replacing had been playing very poorly since getting injured the year before.  But using a first and second round pick on two complete failures while letting an Elite LT leave changed the entire course of this team.  Lots of other things have gone bad, but that was by far the main reason we have fallen to the level we are now.  Alexander had to go after that fiasco.

The only thing I keep pointing out is that Alexander was not garbage the entire time he was here.  In fact he was highly regarded around the league.

[BengalsRocker]

You guys really still talking about Paul Alexander?

Don't care what he did and how much Free agents made when they went to another team years ago.

Paul sucks now.  Fact.

Why bother debating/rehashing the same arguments about this current loser and his "legacy".

Okay.  I'll add this stupid cliche and put my own spin on it.

"The definition of insanity is arguing over and over about a suck ass coach who is no longer with the Bengals." -  Me just now

[grampahol]

I'll defend them and say they've never committed genocide in a small, undeveloped nation....at least that I know of .

Oops.. I forgot Bengals Nation.. Never mind  ..

[fredtoast]

(12-07-2018, 09:05 PM)grampahol Wrote: I'll defend them and say they've never committed genocide in a small, undeveloped nation....at least that I know of .

They'd like too but Mike Brown is too cheap

[BengalChris]

(12-07-2018, 04:49 PM)Wyche Wrote: I don't think Andy is elite.  I think he is better than 0-4 in the playoffs though.  I mean, he didn't choke in college, neither did Palmer. 

You make a great point on AJ Green.  Having guys of that caliber has, I think, masked deficiencies.  Guys like him, Whit, Burfict (when he was good), Geno, Mixon, Eifert (when healthy), and to some extent....Andy, Dunlap, Pacman, etc. (plus the greats during the Palmer era) are going to produce no matter who is coaching.  They're that good.  

When the ineptitude manifests is when the pressure is the greatest and intensity and scheming are amped up to the nth degree.  It's noted in all sports that the postseason is when winning teams step up their game, and the coaching shines the most.  

For example....when Tyler Eifert goes down, why does the offense struggle so mightily?  I mean, can't anyone else on the team attack the seams?  Throwing up the middle of the field, and even deep up the middle of the field is your QBs strength.  Why can't we adapt to that?  It's mind boggling.  I understand it a little when AJ goes down....I mean, he IS elite.  I just don't understand why this staff can't always coach to the strength of its players under Marvin, and why it can't adjust quickly enough to what other coaches try to do to them.

I don't think Andy is elite either, but you certainly got my point. Actually, if Dalton were elite, he'd have elevated to that status despite Marv.

Eifert could just get open. Kroft, sometimes, but he needs something to help him get open beyond what Eifert needed.

Look at the difference between T Hill and Ross. Hill seems to get open effortlessly, while Ross seems to struggle get open. Forget the draft position, Hill is just one of those guys and Ross isn't, or at least is slow showing if he ever does.

How great would AJ Green be in a place like KC with that coaching staff?

[BengalChris]

(12-07-2018, 04:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes he did.  In 2009 when most of his starting offensive linemen were undrafted free agents with almost zero experience he changed up the scheme and started using a lot of 6 man lines.

You found one example in 16 years! Awesome!

So, Marv adjusted his scheme once. Any other times?

[THE PISTONS]

(12-07-2018, 11:58 PM)BengalChris Wrote: I don't think Andy is elite either, but you certainly got my point. Actually, if Dalton were elite, he'd have elevated to that status despite Marv.

Eifert could just get open. Kroft, sometimes, but he needs something to help him get open beyond what Eifert needed.

Look at the difference between T Hill and Ross. Hill seems to get open effortlessly, while Ross seems to struggle get open. Forget the draft position, Hill is just one of those guys and Ross isn't, or at least is slow showing if he ever does.

How great would AJ Green be in a place like KC with that coaching staff?

Well the Chiefs are smart enough to not run Hill deep against defenders that are 5 inches taller than him...ie The Chiefs realize he's not AJ Green.

The Bengals...well they're not creative.

Green is a freak. An outlier that would be good on any team.

[fredtoast]

(12-08-2018, 12:00 AM)BengalChris Wrote: You found one example in 16 years! Awesome!

So, Marv adjusted his scheme once. Any other times?

Adjustments are over rated.

Look at what happened to Coca Cola when they decided to change the recipe.

And if change is so great why don't we just switch the American flag from "red, white, and blue" to "pink, gold, and black"?

And let people get married to animals if they want to?

[SladeX]

Or rotate your tires? What a *****. Or change AC filters? Just buy new hvac every 3 years. Let sleeping dogs lie, even if they are dead, the smell's not going to last forever! And whatever you do, don't quit smoking, or drinking or sniffing glue at the wrong time. Timing is everything!