Fort Trump

[jj22]

(09-19-2018, 12:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: No doubt that "my beloved Russia" would absolutely love us having a base in Poland. I don't think folks "hate" the rest of the free world, but some may be tired of them being our dependents.

See? The above is one of those bonuses I was talking about.

The bonus of people standing up for America's Allies and Vets? Ok. If that was your goal then yes it worked.

As for the base in Poland, it's not about Russia, Putin will probably knock down the idea anyway. It's as you pointed out, about Trumps name being on a base. That's all you guys (and Trump) care about.... Trump first.

[fredtoast]

(09-19-2018, 12:27 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Our reason for being in Germany is to "protect them from Russia". Last time I looked at a globe Poland is between Russia and Poland. A perfect place to be. Moving bases from Germany to Poland does absolutely nothing to weaken our National Defense and Poland is willing to pay a huge part of the bill.

Upset Democrats is just a nice bonus.

Moving our base from Germany to Poland would be labeled an act of aggression by Russia and could invoke a counter-move by them.  No need to pick a fight just because Trump wants his ass kissed or you want to piss off democrats.

The North Atlantic Treaty is not just for protection from Russia.  Instead it is a mutual defense treaty.  In fact Article 5 has only been invoked once and it was when the US was attacked on 9-11.

[*bfine32*]

(09-19-2018, 12:53 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Moving our base from Germany to Poland would be labeled an act of aggression by Russia and could invoke a counter-move by them.  No need to pick a fight just because Trump wants his ass kissed or you want to piss off democrats.

The North Atlantic Treaty is not just for protection from Russia.  Instead it is a mutual defense treaty.  In fact Article 5 has only been invoked once and it was when the US was attacked on 9-11.

Tell it JJ22 he thinks my beloved Russia would absolutely love it.

As to your point. There's a little more to it than the trivialities you list (those are just the bonuses I was speaking of). Poland has asked us for help and I have suggesting leaving Germany for more strategic locations worldwide back when Trump was nothing more that a reality star.  We have recently deployed Troops to Poland to deter aggression from Russia.  So why not make a more permanent logistical base? Oh I know, because it could be named FT Trump.

[*bfine32*]

(09-19-2018, 12:48 PM)jj22 Wrote: The bonus of people standing up for America's Allies and Vets? Ok. If that was your goal then yes it worked.

As for the base in Poland, it's not about Russia, Putin will probably knock down the idea anyway. It's as you pointed out, about Trumps name being on a base. That's all you guys (and Trump) care about.... Trump first.

Roll with it Comrade.

[fredtoast]

(09-19-2018, 01:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote:   So why not make a more permanent logistical base? Oh I know, because it could be named FT Trump.

How about the fact that military experts opposed the move long before there was any talk of naming it "Fort Trump"

https://www.politico.eu/article/dont-put-us-bases-in-poland/


But anyone who can't see that this is all about Trump has some sort of mental disorder, right?

[GMDino]

(09-19-2018, 01:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: How about the fact that military experts opposed the move long before there was any talk of naming it "Fort Trump"

https://www.politico.eu/article/dont-put-us-bases-in-poland/


But anyone who can't see that this is all about Trump has some sort of mental disorder, right?

Trump supporters think because he does things that the experts oppose he must be right.  He's an "outsider" afterall.

Never mind he has no idea of any ramifications...Trump thinks about now.  Trump doesn't think about later.

And his supporters (who will SAY they aren't 100% for something) love anything he tells them.  Anything.

[*bfine32*]

(09-19-2018, 01:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: How about the fact that military experts opposed the move long before there was any talk of naming it "Fort Trump"

https://www.politico.eu/article/dont-put-us-bases-in-poland/


But anyone who can't see that this is all about Trump has some sort of mental disorder, right?

LG (RET) Hodges' Op-Ed has been noted. Let's see what current policy makers come up with. I believe Mad Dog Mattis spent a little time in the Military as well. The are some very good reasons and LG Hodges address the negative impact of most to support his stance. It's not like any Military strategist couldn't counter any made and provide reasons why. One-sided argument is one-sided.

As I said, there are many reasons to put a permanent base in Poland to include ceasing the numerous rotations that Hodges points to in his OP-ED.  Calling it FT Trump would just be a bonus.

[*bfine32*]

(09-19-2018, 01:24 PM)GMDino Wrote: Trump supporters think because he does things that the experts oppose he must be right.  He's an "outsider" afterall.

Never mind he has no idea of any ramifications...Trump thinks about now.  Trump doesn't think about later.

And his supporters (who will SAY they aren't 100% for something) love anything he tells them.  Anything.

Why don't we wait and see what the experts currently in the system have to say, instead of putting all our eggs in the basket of one retired LG's OP-ED and doing a cyber circle-jerk with fred? Don't answer that, I know.

Mattis is currently weighing the pros and cons and I have spoken to the pros long before Trump put his hand on the bible. If Mattis and his team deem the move is not in ours and our allies best interest then so be it. But it is something to consider and if you are truly honest with yourself (I know), some that could care less in the past now are suddenly interested. Any idea why? I've got one and all you have to do is goggle us bases in Poland and see whose name is plastered all over the headlines. 

[fredtoast]

(09-19-2018, 01:32 PM)bfine32 Wrote:  I believe Mad Dog Mattis spent a little time in the Military as well.

Mattis does not seem very enthusiastic about the idea

U.S. Defense Secretary Jim Mattis said the U.S. military was studying options with Poland but cautioned that no decisions had been made.

“It’s not just about a base. It’s about training ranges, it’s about maintenance facilities at the base, all these kinds of things. There’s a host of details we’ve got to study alongside the Poles,” Mattis told reporters at the Pentagon.




And this is not something that just popped up this week.  There has been discussion about it for a long time.  It is not like Mattis just heard about the idea.

[*bfine32*]

(09-19-2018, 01:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Mattis does not seem very enthusiastic about the idea

U.S. Defense Secretary Jim Mattis said the U.S. military was studying options with Poland but cautioned that no decisions had been made.

“It’s not just about a base. It’s about training ranges, it’s about maintenance facilities at the base, all these kinds of things. There’s a host of details we’ve got to study alongside the Poles,” Mattis told reporters at the Pentagon.




And this is not something that just popped up this week.  There has been discussion about it for a long time.  It is not like Mattis just heard about the idea.

What leads you to believe he's not enthusiastic about it? Seems he's just being pragmatic. Of course it's been ongoing; however, Poland's recent commitment to pay a big part of the bill is new and something LG Hodges did not have to consider when he wrote his OP-ED.

I would bet money if Obama had made the same statement after Poland agreed to kick in and stated he wanted to name it FT Powell your stance would be different. I can honestly say mine would be the same

[GMDino]

(09-18-2018, 08:19 PM)bfine32 Wrote: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-poland/trump-says-u-s-considering-permanent-military-presence-in-poland-idUSKCN1LY2NJ?il=0


Oh please, please, please let this happen. I've said for some time we should get away from Germany and expand more into other regions, where we are more appreciated. Let Merkle bytch about the US while we move our bases to Poland on their dime.

Plus i cannot deny the entertainment value of the heads that would explode if we named the first one FT. Trump.

(09-18-2018, 09:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well it does state Poland is willing to put $2 Billion toward the endeavor; I'd let then have a seat at the table.

But honestly. I'd find it quite insulting to name it FT Trump, but the over the top reactions could sooth my insolence.

(09-19-2018, 12:27 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Our reason for being in Germany is to "protect them from Russia". Last time I looked at a globe Poland is between Russia and Poland. A perfect place to be. Moving bases from Germany to Poland does absolutely nothing to weaken our National Defense and Poland is willing to pay a huge part of the bill.

Upset Democrats is just a nice bonus.

(09-19-2018, 12:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: No doubt that "my beloved Russia" would absolutely love us having a base in Poland. I don't think folks "hate" the rest of the free world, but some may be tired of them being our dependents.

See? The above is one of those bonuses I was talking about.

(09-19-2018, 01:01 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Tell it JJ22 he thinks my beloved Russia would absolutely love it.

As to your point. There's a little more to it than the trivialities you list (those are just the bonuses I was speaking of). Poland has asked us for help and I have suggesting leaving Germany for more strategic locations worldwide back when Trump was nothing more that a reality star.  We have recently deployed Troops to Poland to deter aggression from Russia.  So why not make a more permanent logistical base? Oh I know, because it could be named FT Trump.

(09-19-2018, 01:32 PM)bfine32 Wrote: LG (RET) Hodges' Op-Ed has been noted. Let's see what current policy makers come up with. I believe Mad Dog Mattis spent a little time in the Military as well. The are some very good reasons and LG Hodges address the negative impact of most to support his stance. It's not like any Military strategist couldn't counter any made and provide reasons why. One-sided argument is one-sided.

As I said, there are many reasons to put a permanent base in Poland to include ceasing the numerous rotations that Hodges points to in his OP-ED.  Calling it FT Trump would just be a bonus.

(09-19-2018, 01:37 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Why don't we wait and see what the experts currently in the system have to say, instead of putting all our eggs in the basket of one retired LG's OP-ED and doing a cyber circle-jerk with fred? Don't answer that, I know.

Mattis is currently weighing the pros and cons and I have spoken to the pros long before Trump put his hand on the bible. If Mattis and his team deem the move is not in ours and our allies best interest then so be it. But it is something to consider and if you are truly honest with yourself (I know), some that could care less in the past now are suddenly interested. Any idea why? I've got one and all you have to do is goggle us bases in Poland and see whose name is plastered all over the headlines. 

Oh!  So we need to "wait and see"...got it.  

I'll have to take you at your word that you were very concerned with having a base out of Germany and in Poland LONG before Trump ran for office.  Totally sure you're telling the truth there (I know).

And other than filling your breeches with...uh...pride, I wonder if we've ever had another Base named after a draft dodger?

[*bfine32*]

(09-19-2018, 01:45 PM)GMDino Wrote: Oh!  So we need to "wait and see"...got it.  

I'll have to take you at your word that you were very concerned with having a base out of Germany and in Poland LONG before Trump ran for office.  Totally sure you're telling the truth there (I know).

And other than filling your breeches with...uh...pride, I wonder if we've ever had another Base named after a draft dodger?

You might not have to take me at my word for it; I'll see if I can find a post from before Trump took office or perhaps someone rational in the forum can chime in and say they remember such a discussion.
We got at least one post named after a slave owner, but yeah, I've said I would be against naming it Trump, but the public outrage would sooth my personal feelings.

Oh, I see you went back and displayed your multi quote and use of bold font prowess. I did notice on the one you ran out of bold font before you could bold the part where I said the name would be insulting to me personal; maybe because it goes 100% against the "point" you tried to make in the last line. What's that about being honest..... Stupid bold font only works when you want it to.

[GMDino]

(09-19-2018, 01:53 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You might not have to take me at my word for it; I'll see if I can find a post from before Trump took office or perhaps someone rational in the forum can chime in and say they remember such a discussion.
We got at least one post named after a slave owner, but yeah, I've said I would be against naming it Trump, but the public outrage would sooth my personal feelings

I said draft dodger...not slave owner.

WTS, I'll take your word for it.

And it is clear you are totally against it(I know) but....

[*bfine32*]

(09-19-2018, 01:56 PM)GMDino Wrote: I said draft dodger...not slave owner.

WTS, I'll take your word for it.

And it is clear you are totally against it(I know) but....

Yep, folks that can read can actually read my personal thoughts on the name.

If bfine got to name it the name would be FT Shalikashvili or FT bfine 

[GMDino]

(09-19-2018, 02:20 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yep, folks that can read can actually read my personal thoughts on the name.

If bfine got to name it the name would be FT Shalikashvili or FT bfine 

...BUT....

[Benton]

(09-19-2018, 12:08 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Why should we continue to infuse money into Germany's economy? We should go where the Country's leaders want/need us.

Germany lost the war, we set up a base of strategic importance. I could care less if they want it there. And I could care less who we're chummy with. Military bases shouldn't be for supporting American companies, foreign economies or making buds at G8. They should be for likely or existing conflict, which is the only reason to have a standing military. The base there is relatively safe in its location and provides a short distance (relatively)  in the event of military action to protect ourselves or an ally. Personally, I think Germany is slightly better over Poland just because there's a little more distance to it from some neighbors that are a little more volatile (Turkey, the ME, the Stans) and it's closer to our more supportive/supported allies.

Ultimately, I don't think the plan will go too far. Anti-Germany/EU and pro-Russia rhetoric is mostly far right, which seems to be losing some momentum in politics. How well it's received in the military I couldn't say. 

[Dill]

(09-18-2018, 09:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well it does state Poland is willing to put $2 Billion toward the endeavor; I'd let then have a seat at the table.

But honestly. I'd find it quite insulting to name it FT Trump, but the over the top reactions could sooth my insolence.

Fun to watch liberal heads explode if our C-in-C is manipulated by flattery into a "Trump first" foreign policy move.

Added bonus for Putin--another wedge between NATO allies. 

[Dill]

(09-20-2018, 03:16 PM)Benton Wrote: Germany lost the war, we set up a base of strategic importance. I could care less if they want it there. And I could care less who we're chummy with. Military bases shouldn't be for supporting American companies, foreign economies or making buds at G8. They should be for likely or existing conflict, which is the only reason to have a standing military. The base there is relatively safe in its location and provides a short distance (relatively)  in the event of military action to protect ourselves or an ally. Personally, I think Germany is slightly better over Poland just because there's a little more distance to it from some neighbors that are a little more volatile (Turkey, the ME, the Stans) and it's closer to our more supportive/supported allies.

Ultimately, I don't think the plan will go too far. Anti-Germany/EU and pro-Russia rhetoric is mostly far right, which seems to be losing some momentum in politics. How well it's received in the military I couldn't say. 

B-b-but Benton, we want to put troops where folks 'preciate us!!  I read that some Germans protest Americans.  If they hate us, let's stop giving them money! 

You sound like one of those experienced politicians, always trying to relate foreign commitments, expenditures, and risks directly to national interest. We need someone WITHOUT experience directing our foreign policy.

There is a new sheriff in town and allies who criticize us, like Germany, need to shut up.

[Dill]

(09-19-2018, 12:08 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Why should we continue to infuse money into Germany's economy? We should go where the Country's leaders want/need us.

Yeah, because the reason for strategically placing military bases anywhere abroad is  . . . . what again?

[*bfine32*]

(09-21-2018, 01:00 PM)Dill Wrote: Fun to watch liberal heads explode if our C-in-C is manipulated by flattery into a "Trump first" foreign policy move.

Added bonus for Putin--another wedge between NATO allies. 

So you're in the Putin wants us to put a base in Poland crowd? BTW, when did Poland drop out of NATO?

(09-21-2018, 01:27 PM)Dill Wrote: Yeah, because the reason for strategically placing military bases anywhere abroad is  . . . . what again?

To protect disruption of our financial interests through deterrence.