Fox news convicted liars

[KillerGoose]

(04-06-2023, 08:22 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: There are no legitimate sources of credible news. All biased with a willingness to lie for their agenda.

This isn't quite true, no. There are definitely credible news sites. I use this aggregator as a way of finding good news. Normally, I end up reading Reuters or BBC, both with a center political lean and high factuality articles. 

[HarleyDog]

(04-06-2023, 09:35 PM)Nately120 Wrote: They lie for our agenda.  They want money sure, but we are the ones who are buying bias by the buttload.

Absolutely.

(04-07-2023, 10:34 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: This isn't quite true, no. There are definitely credible news sites. I use this aggregator as a way of finding good news. Normally, I end up reading Reuters or BBC, both with a center political lean and high factuality articles. 

I really like that site. I don't like that it's a subscription, but man what a great idea.

[BIGDADDYFROMCINCINNATI]

(04-07-2023, 09:35 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: Good lord. Do you really believe this nonsense or are you still blindly supporting everything left?

Name one instance where CNN or MSNBC has been sued and made to report what they previously reported was false and they knowingly lied to their viewers.  Sure many news organizations have a bias but they don't claim to be "For entertainment purposes only," and repeatedly lie to their viewership trying to whip them into a frenzy like FOX does.  

When has CNN or MSNBC ever gone into court and claimed, "No reasonable person with any common sense whatsoever would ever believe anything they say b/c they're for entertainment and opinion purposes only?"  Fox did exactly that in this case, and Judge Davis slapped them down saying, "It's oxymoronic to label yourself as FOX News, a new organization,  and then try and use this as a defense."  CNN and MSNBC have NEVER claimed this in court about their product. 

What you're trying to do is whitewash Fox's liability and normalize what they've done by saying "Well everyone does it." Fox did it by promoting Trump's Big Lie and saying Dominion Voting machines created voter fraud on a massive scale, and they knew what they were saying was false.  Hannity, Laura, and Tucker all were saying in their emails how freakin' loony tunes Rudy and Sydney Powell were acting. Also, YES I do hold Fox partly responsible for the Trump-incited insurrection on January 6th b/c they were the Bull Horn spreading these lie they knew were false but did it anyway and that's why they're on the hook for $1.6-Billion.  

Sorry, but that dog doesn't hunt, but nice try. 

[GMDino]

(04-07-2023, 03:17 PM)BIGDADDYFROMCINCINNATI Wrote: Name one instance where CNN or MSNBC has been sued and made to report what they previously reported was false and they knowingly lied to their viewers.  Sure many news organizations have a bias but they don't claim to be "For entertainment purposes only," and repeatedly lie to their viewership trying to whip them into a frenzy like FOX does.  

When has CNN or MSNBC ever gone into court and claimed, "No reasonable person with any common sense whatsoever would ever believe anything they say b/c they're for entertainment and opinion only?"  Fox did exactly that in this case, and Judge Davis slapped them down saying, "It's oxymoronic to label yourself as FOX News, a new organization,  and then try and use this as a defense."  CNN and MSNBC have NEVER claimed this in court about their product. 

What you're trying to do is whitewash Fox's liability and normalize what they've done by saying "Well everyone does it." Fox did it by promoting Trump's Big Lie and saying Dominion Voting machines created voter fraud on a massive scale, and they knew what they were saying was false.  Hannity, Laura, and Tucker all were saying in their emails how freakin' loony tunes Rudy and Sydney Powell were acting. Also, YES I do hold Fox partly responsible for the Trump-incited insurrection on January 6th b/c they were the Bull Horn spreading these lie they knew were false but did it anyway and that's why they're on the hook for $1.6-Billion.  

Sorry, but that dog doesn't hunt, but nice try. 

I know NBC got sued for faking a report on cars exploding in crashes.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-02-10-mn-1335-story.html

There may be other single incidents.  Nothing on the level of FOX.  

Even NEWSMAX admitted they lied and stopped reporting the false news.  FOX allowed their talking heads to continue despite knowing beforehand they were lying.

[*Nately120*]

To me the real evidence that Fox is the king of propaganda is that when its talking heads are forced to admit they are lying, or inside info where they talk about how much they are lying and misleading people is leaked their followers still refuse to admit (or care that) they are being lied to. You don't get that level of blind faith from people just by being a "normal level" liar.

When you can say that no reasonable person would take you seriously and still have people considering you one of the only sources of truth on the planet, you didn't get there by accident even if your audience did.

[KillerGoose]

(04-07-2023, 02:23 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: I really like that site. I don't like that it's a subscription, but man what a great idea.

Thankfully, you can still use it and read it without a subscription. I don't have one and use it all the time. I think if you have a subscription you can access more features and figure out your political lean and whatnot. It isn't necessary, though. 

[HarleyDog]

(04-07-2023, 03:17 PM)BIGDADDYFROMCINCINNATI Wrote: Name one instance where CNN or MSNBC has been sued and made to report what they previously reported was false and they knowingly lied to their viewers.  

What about the catholic high school kid who sued CNN for lying? What about every time Don Lemon opens his mouth? 

[HarleyDog]

(04-07-2023, 03:27 PM)GMDino Wrote:  FOX allowed their talking heads to continue despite knowing beforehand they were lying.

Wait... So, some of you claim FOX is for entertainment purposes and are not a media corporation. If you stand so firmly behind this, then why complain about anything FOX has written, reported, etc? Do you go apeshit over everything the National Enquirer reports too? If so, I haven't seen it.

[BIGDADDYFROMCINCINNATI]

(04-07-2023, 03:27 PM)GMDino Wrote: I know NBC got sued for faking a report on cars exploding in crashes.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1993-02-10-mn-1335-story.html

There may be other single incidents.  Nothing on the level of FOX.  

Even NEWSMAX admitted they lied and stopped reporting the false news.  FOX allowed their talking heads to continue despite knowing beforehand they were lying.

In 1993, NBC was sued by an auto manufacturer.  In April 2021, NewsMax and OAN both settled out of court with Dominion voting systems and part of the settlement was for their news anchors to admit they lied to their views by promoting Trump's big election lie.  Here's an article from law.com where OAN and NewsMax admit "It was all a lie."

https://www.law.com/nationallawjournal/2021/11/03/it-was-all-a-lie-one-america-news-faces-another-defamation-lawsuit-over-false-election-rigging-claims/?slreturn=20230307155503

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/dominion-sues-newsmax-one-america-news-network-others-over-election-claims-wsj-2021-08-10/

https://news.yahoo.com/oan-finally-admits-no-widespread-022816382.html

[BIGDADDYFROMCINCINNATI]

(04-07-2023, 05:08 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Wait... So, some of you claim FOX is for entertainment purposes and are not a media corporation. If you stand so firmly behind this, then why complain about anything FOX has written, reported, etc? Do you go apeshit over everything the National Enquirer reports too? If so, I haven't seen it.

Fox claimed that as a defense and the judge slapped it down saying it was Oxymoronic b/c they label themselves as "FOX NEWS MEDIA Corp,"  so if they want to be known as a tabloid, they need to show a disclaimer at the beginning of each show stating, " These are the opinions of our news anchors, they are not factual and should not be taken seriously."

[BIGDADDYFROMCINCINNATI]

(04-07-2023, 05:00 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: What about the catholic high school kid who sued CNN for lying? What about every time Don Lemon opens his mouth? 

CNN settled with the student's family and did not admit to any wrongdoing,  nor did they have to apologize to the young man or their viewers for making false statements. 

I'm not aware Don Lemon has ever had to apologize to his viewers for reporting falsehoods. I believe that is your opinion of him.

[guyofthetiger]

Courts are not about the truth. They are about winning the case. So even if FOX loses a case, does not mean they lied. I have my own opinions about election fraud.

[*Nately120*]

(04-07-2023, 11:38 PM)guyofthetiger Wrote: Courts are not about the truth. They are about winning the case. So even if FOX loses a case, does not mean they lied. I have my own opinions about election fraud.

The issues is if Fox News is bearing false witness disguised as stating opinion and asking questions. 

And this stuff hurts republicans too.  Georgia has 2 democrat senators right now due in no small part to right wing media convincing republican voters to stay home and not waste their time voting in the rigged races. 

[Dill]

(04-07-2023, 05:08 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Wait... So, some of you claim FOX is for entertainment purposes and are not a media corporation. If you stand so firmly behind this, then why complain about anything FOX has written, reported, etc? Do you go apeshit over everything the National Enquirer reports too? If so, I haven't seen it.

Fox has been instrumental in misleading masses of voters on may subjects-- wmds in Iraq,* Benghazi, Russia gate, both Trump impeachments, quack COVID treatments, and Trump's Big Lie about election fraud. Without them, it is hard to envision Trump becoming president and the 1/6 insurrection, or the millions who still want Trump to be president even AFTER he sought to overturn a legal election. Millions believe and vote/act on Fox disinformation. 

Further, Fox encourages viewers to distrust in more reliable news sources, i.e. "the mainstream media mob", so that even when Fox is exposed, its viewers still think news sources with much higher standards are "just as bad" and doing the same thing. It legitimates false equivalences, breaks down the kind of systematic comparison required for voters to make good decisions about candidates--and news sources. 

In its daily editorial practice, it also legitimizes self-censorship, encourages it, really. "Don't pay attention to the Jan 6 hearings--all biased!" Many Fox viewers take pride in ignoring the "fake news." So I am never surprised when I encounter Fox viewers who have never heard of the "Green Bay Sweep." Or when I encounter Fox viewers who think Trump's phone call to Zelensky or the Georgia Sec state were legal, as was his defiance of a demand to return documents to the National Archives.  Fox commentators explained it all for them. They heard nothing different on Newsmax. the MSM just lies and hates Trump so OF COURSE they claim his actions were illegal. etc. 

The National Enquirer just does not do that kind of ongoing damage to democratic norms, to our national politics.


*Fox is not the only one guilty of that. The NYT's Judith Miller accepted too uncritically the Bush administration's claims about Iraq war success, but the paper publicly corrected her errors and she "moved on" from the paper. No news organizations can avoid errors and some bad stories; but when they make errors or are fooled by lying reporters, the penalties go in favor of truth, not against it. 

[Dill]

(04-07-2023, 09:35 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: Good lord. Do you really believe this nonsense or are you still blindly supporting everything left?

H-dog, you're a good guy and I don't want to get on your bad side.  But we are dealing with questions that can be sorted out methodically with
reference to a factual record we should both be able to agree on. 

Since the Iraq War, and Fox's role in defending it long after MSM realized the boondoggle, I've made an effort to study the political
economy of news and the history of U.S. press. That means reading actual books and scholarly articles, not just current news "opinion."
This also requires de-politicizing terms like "bias" and "the left," using them responsibly and accurately as political scientists do, not Fox hosts.  

So I am much less interested in what anyone "believes," than in what can be actually demonstrated, not simply asserted. 

Every MSM outlet has fired journalists and editors for lying. We get nowhere if I cite a Fox reporter's lie and you cite a WaPo reporter's lie, tit for tat. The issue is really the "culture" of news organizations--the kinds of standards they hold to, or do not, for what cause people are hired or fired, how sources are vetted, the closeness of editors/reporters to news sources/stories/personalities--especially politicians. That should determine which are more trustworthy, which less--not WHETHER CNN was sued once too, but what values and standards are revealed in its response.  

So can you name an MSM organization in which the owner's ADMITTED POLICY is to allow people to lie on air and in print without challenge, because that serves a political leader's agenda, which fires journalists for telling the truth because the audience might not like that truth and turn to networks further right, and whose reporters call for the firing of a colleague for telling the truth, because that might drop the companies stock? Or one whose reporters daily strategize with politicians about how to present and coordinate stories? 

Can you name an MSM organization which refuses to cover a Congressional hearing on an event so important as the Capitol insurrection because it is "biased," while successfully persuading many of its viewers that the other side ignores news that "doesn't fit the narrative" because it has an "agenda"? 

Is there an MSM reporter/commentator who can call Biden during a crisis to coach him through it? From which MSM news channel does Biden pick staff, while its hosts put on guests to pitch ideas directly to the always watching president? 

These are questions of fact, which can for the most part be given "yes" and "no" answers because the record is available to "both sides." 

[BIGDADDYFROMCINCINNATI]

(04-07-2023, 11:38 PM)guyofthetiger Wrote: Courts are not about the truth. They are about winning the case. So even if FOX loses a case, does not mean they lied. I have my own opinions about election fraud.

Fox executives, The Murdoch's, Sean Hannity, Laura Ingrahm, Lou Dobbs, and Tucker Carlson all admitted while under oath in sworn depositions they knowingly LIED by presenting something they knew was false, and that was Trump's Big lie and the Dominion voting machines were involved in massive voter fraud.   Also, FYI courts are for finding the facts and getting to the truth.

***A Sworn deposition means FOX admitted to doing this under oath subject to the penalty of perjury.  Get It? ***

Here's the definition from law.com

A deposition occurs when lawyers take the sworn testimony of a witness prior to a trial.  The witness is placed under oath and lawyers for each party may ask questions. The questions and answers are recorded. When a person is unavailable to testify during a trial, the deposition of that person may be used. It's consistently used during the pre-trial discovery (fact-finding) process.

[HarleyDog]

(04-08-2023, 02:37 PM)Dill Wrote: H-dog, you're a good guy and I don't want to get on your bad side.  

We’re good. 

[samhain]

(04-07-2023, 11:38 PM)guyofthetiger Wrote: Courts are not about the truth. They are about winning the case. So even if FOX loses a case, does not mean they lied. I have my own opinions about election fraud.

Well. good news: your opinions aren't the truth either, and they sure as heck don't depend on the degree of proof that a court of law's decision does.  

[Lucidus]

(04-07-2023, 05:08 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Wait... So, some of you claim FOX is for entertainment purposes and are not a media corporation. If you stand so firmly behind this, then why complain about anything FOX has written, reported, etc? Do you go apeshit over everything the National Enquirer reports too? If so, I haven't seen it.

The issue is that Fox News doesn't inform their viewers of the entertainment aspect of their programming; thus their opinions and assertions are taken as factually correct by a large portion of their audience. That has consequences: misinformation, false narratives, illogical conclusions and manufactured outrage. 

While person A may know it's entertainment, they still have to deal with the consequences of person B not knowing it; thanks in large part to the news source purposely misleading person B. If it had no actual impact in the real world, then I doubt anyone would care.

[*Nately120*]

(04-08-2023, 10:52 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: We’re good. 

Yeah, well I ain't scared of your bad side!

(04-10-2023, 06:26 PM)Lucidus Wrote: The issue is that Fox News doesn't inform their viewers of the entertainment aspect of their programming; thus their opinions and assertions are taken as factually correct by a large portion of their audience. That has consequences: misinformation, false narratives, illogical conclusions and manufactured outrage. 

While person A may know it's entertainment, they still have to deal with the consequences of person B not knowing it; thanks in large part to the news source purposely misleading person B. If it had no actual impact in the real world, then I doubt anyone would care.

Yep, the issue is that people should know they're being lied too.  They can seek it out and accept it, but they have to act accordingly.  It's the difference between telling a gal she's the best lookin' dame on the planet and her saying "Awww you're sweet" and then letting you get to second base, versus telling her she's the best lookin' dame on the planet and her saying "Really?!  I am!!?" and then running out the door, jumping in her car and driving non-stop to the most famous modeling agency in LA, kicking the door in and shouting "Stop everything!  I've arrived!!!!"

We all like being lied too, but when you start to believe 100% and base your life around BS you've got a problem.