Fresno State professor who mocked Barbara Bush’s death is getting a reality check

[fredtoast]

Would they want her to be fired if she called Hillary Clinton "Crooked?"

Got to be strict with these rules against saying anything bad about a former First lady, right?

[*PhilHos*]

(04-20-2018, 05:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Would they want her to be fired if she called Hillary Clinton "Crooked?"

Got to be strict with these rules against saying anything bad about a former First lady, right?

I assume you had no problems with those that referred to Michelle Obama as a gorilla or ape or anything, right? 

[fredtoast]

(04-20-2018, 05:18 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I assume you had no problems with those that referred to Michelle Obama as a gorilla or ape or anything, right? 

Well those are racists terms which signify a deeper problem than just a dislike for a specific person.  So that is different.

But if a person was only using personal insults (fat, stupid, war criminal, etc) I would never asked for them to be fired just for insulting a former first lady.

[SunsetBengal]

(04-20-2018, 05:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Well those are racists terms which signify a deeper problem than just a dislike for a specific person.  So that is different.

But if a person was only using personal insults (fat, stupid, war criminal, etc) I would never asked for them to be fired just for insulting a former first lady.

[*PhilHos*]

(04-20-2018, 05:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Well those are racists terms which signify a deeper problem than just a dislike for a specific person.  So that is different.

Of COURSE it's different! No double standard for you, nuh uh, no way! It's okay to be insulting as long as you're not RACIST! 

[J24]

I would not fire her for that comment on Babra Bush alone. With that being said she seems like a bully who uses her tenure to bully students that have a different view point than her. Of course that's me just speculating so take it with a grain of salt... I think what she said was vile and discusting but that's the most important speech to protect.

[fredtoast]

(04-20-2018, 06:09 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Of COURSE it's different! No double standard for you, nuh uh, no way! It's okay to be insulting as long as you're not RACIST! 

Not sure what point you are trying to make here.

I don't have any double standard.  Personal insults are no grounds for firing.  Racist comments are different because they signify a much different problem.

It is okay to have personal differences with an individual (I don't like Michelle Obama).  It is not okay to judge individuals bases on racial or ethnic stereotypes (I don't like black people).

You really don't see any difference?

[*bfine32*]

(04-20-2018, 05:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Well those are racists terms which signify a deeper problem than just a dislike for a specific person.  So that is different.

But if a person was only using personal insults (fat, stupid, war criminal, etc) I would never asked for them to be fired just for insulting a former first lady.

Calling someone racist (obviously not a racist term) is not a deeper problem?

The deeper issue (and I date myself): Wasn't there a time when educators were not to share their political views? I remember in school teachers were forbidden from discussing his/her personal political views; simply present the facts and let the child learn. Unfortunately, those days are long gone.  

[fredtoast]

(04-20-2018, 06:41 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Calling someone racist (obviously not a racist term) is not a deeper problem?

No.  As long as they are not saying "all white people are racists".

[fredtoast]

(04-20-2018, 06:41 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The deeper issue (and I date myself): Wasn't there a time when educators were not to share their political views? I remember in school teachers were forbidden from discussing his/her personal political views; simply present the facts and let the child learn. Unfortunately, those days are long gone.  

I may be mistaken, but I thought these comments were on social media and not in the classroom.

[*bfine32*]

(04-20-2018, 06:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I may be mistaken, but I thought these comments were on social media and not in the classroom.

Given we didn't have Social Media when I was in school and as I said those days are long gone. But she is identified as an educator and obviously displayed a political bias and were outright lies. No legitimate governing body has convicted George H. Bush of War Crimes. Apparently you have no problem with this. Free speech is often so misunderstood.    

[*bfine32*]

(04-20-2018, 06:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No.  As long as they are not saying "all white people are racists".

Well she did appear to say all folks in this family are and she'll be glad when they all are gone. Bit in your opinion that's not as deep of an issue as calling someone a monkey. Now if someone were to say all black people are monkeys then....

[Dill]

(04-20-2018, 06:41 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Calling someone racist (obviously not a racist term) is not a deeper problem?

The deeper issue (and I date myself): Wasn't there a time when educators were not to share their political views? I remember in school teachers were forbidden from discussing his/her personal political views; simply present the facts and let the child learn. Unfortunately, those days are long gone.  

There is a big difference between college and k-12.

Professors are supposed to have academic freedom to pursue topics wherever research or issues take them. 
And college students are not children.

I hope that teachers at all levels of schooling are doing more than simply "presenting the facts" though.

[*bfine32*]

(04-20-2018, 08:16 PM)Dill Wrote: There is a big difference between college and k-12.

Professors are supposed to have academic freedom to pursue topics wherever research or issues take them. 
And college students are not children.

I hope that teachers at all levels of schooling are doing more than simply "presenting the facts" though.

I hope no teacher at any level is pushing their personal bias on any student, but I am not naive enough to know that's not the case. Apparently you want teachers to share their personal bias with students in addition to presenting facts. Seems a shame 

[*michaelsean*]

(04-20-2018, 05:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Would they want her to be fired if she called Hillary Clinton "Crooked?"

Got to be strict with these rules against saying anything bad about a former First lady, right?

Hillary died? And yes for me there is a distinction between a living person, and a person who died a few hours ago.

[SunsetBengal]

(04-20-2018, 08:16 PM)Dill Wrote: There is a big difference between college and k-12.

Professors are supposed to have academic freedom to pursue topics wherever research or issues take them. 
And college students are not children.

I hope that teachers at all levels of schooling are doing more than simply "presenting the facts" though.

Let's not pretend that teachers aren't expressing their own political views in American classrooms.  A quick browser search will provide a plethora of links to articles on the topic in the past couple years, from both mainstream and conservative leaning sources.  

[Dill]

(04-20-2018, 08:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I hope no teacher at any level is pushing their personal bias on any student, but I am not naive enough to know that's not the case. Apparently you want teachers to share their personal bias with students in addition to presenting facts. Seems a shame 

There is a difference between education and vocational training.

A teacher in an automotive training school who is teaching students how to repair an automatic transmission might be expected to simply "present facts."

But if the goal is to provide students with civic knowledge and some critical thinking skills, a bit more will be required.

Then there are not simply two options--"facts" and "personal bias."  Teachers must get students to exercise critical thinking skills; doing that well may include exposing students to a variety of different beliefs about the world, including the differing values that go along with them, especially, but not only, at the college level. I would consider it a good thing if teachers represent a spectrum of political/scientific/religious views to students.

As far as public schools go, I don't see how they can be expected to teach students without also affirming some values over others. E.g., democracy over fascism. I would also hope that both curriculum and teachers condemn phenomena such as slavery and genocide rather than just "presenting facts" and "letting students decide." I would hope that some historical figures are praised over others, MLK over Hitler. I don't think we can reproduce US democracy without a bias towards democracy in the school curricula.

I understand that some parents hold beliefs that don't hold up well under scrutiny, and they want to pass those on to their children without challenge. Hence all the fuss about "liberal bias" and "leftism" in schools, not to mention support for home schooling and charter schools. But the U.S. is a first world industrial nation, in part because of its system of public education--one which does not just "present facts." I don't see why standards have to be lowered for all to protect the beliefs of some.

[Dill]

(04-20-2018, 09:35 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Let's not pretend that teachers aren't expressing their own political views in American classrooms.  A quick browser search will provide a plethora of links to articles on the topic in the past couple years, from both mainstream and conservative leaning sources.  

What kind of political views should teachers be teaching in American classrooms?  I.e., what is the alternative to "their own" views?

[Benton]

(04-19-2018, 01:24 PM)StLucieBengal Wrote: Maybe we can get Benton to ban me instead...  lol  should we workshop this ...

Im confused, am I banning you on his death, or am I banning you so he doesnt die?

[*PhilHos*]

(04-20-2018, 06:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is okay to have personal differences with an individual (I don't like Michelle Obama).  It is not okay to judge individuals bases on racial or ethnic stereotypes (I don't like black people).

You really don't see any difference?

So, in your mind calling someone a gigantic idiot or the biggest piece of shit is just the speaker having a "personal difference' and that's ok?