Gay marriage ruling about to come down

[fredtoast]

(06-27-2015, 02:43 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Still waiting on the link where Thomas said "slavery wasn't that bad".

You also never told me who gave you your dignity or why you consider Thomas a White Apologist?

Alright I guess I will have to stoop to third grade level.

Do you think having dignity is a good thing?  Do you agree that retaining a good thing is good?  Then based on this slavery was not that bad because it allowed slaves to retain a good thing.

As for why he is considered a white apologist I don't know how to say it any simpler.  When you aregue that slavery was not that bad because the slaves still had their diginity you are taking a page straight out of the white apologists rhetoric handbook.

[fredtoast]

(06-27-2015, 02:43 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Thomas acually explained the difference between dignity and liberty as he assumed some would try to draw the feeble coralation. 

Here is exactly what he said.  .  .  

Human dignity has long been understood in this country to be innate. When the Framers proclaimed in the Declaration of Independence that “all men are created equal” and “endowed by their Creator with certain unalienableRights,” they referred to a vision of mankind in which allhumans are created in the image of God and therefore ofinherent worth. That vision is the foundation upon which this Nation was built.



The corollary of that principle is that human dignity cannot be taken away by the government. 




He claimed that dignity was just like the other unalienable right.  He basically said that dignity was just like the other rights recognized by the framers.  No where did he say they were any different.  Please explain where he "explained the difference between liberty and dignity" because all i see is him saying they were both recognized as innate by the founding fathers.  And that would be the exact same founding fathers who claimed all men were endowed by god with the right to liberty at the same time they were accepting of slavery.


The funniest part is that he uses the term "corollary" and you criticize people for making a "feeble correlation".  Do you happen to notice any similarity between the term "corollary" that Thomas uses and the word "correlation"?

[*bfine32*]

(06-27-2015, 03:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Alright I guess I will have to stoop to third grade level.

Do you think having dignity is a good thing?  Do you agree that retaining a good thing is good?  Then based on this slavery was not that bad because it allowed slaves to retain a good thing.

As for why he is considered a white apologist I don't know how to say it any simpler.  When you aregue that slavery was not that bad because the slaves still had their diginity you are taking a page straight out of the white apologists rhetoric handbook.

Actually you'd be elevating it to a 3rd grade level.

Still didn't answer the questions asked. Who gave you your dignity and where did Thomas say "Slavery wasn't that bad"? He simply gave credit to the Slaves and not the institution of Slavery. Although if you can't grasp the difference between having dignity and being treated with dignity; I doubt you'll grasp that concept.

But to answer your question(s). Yes I think having dignity is a good thing. I just don't think someone has to give it to you. To use a more modern day example. There are stories of POWs from Vietnam treated inhumanely; yet they were able to maintain their dignity.

So you consider Thomas a White Apologist because he suggested that Slaves could still maintain their dignity.  

[*bfine32*]

(06-27-2015, 03:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Please explain where he "explained the difference between liberty and dignity" because all i see is him saying they were both recognized as innate by the founding fathers.  

It is his opening statement.



"Perhaps recognizing that these cases do not actually involve liberty as it has been understood, the majority goes to great lengths to assert that its decision will advance the “dignity” of same-sex couples. "


...but you got me. There's a chance I spelled a word incorrectly.

Now your turn: Quote where he said Slavery "was not that bad".

[fredtoast]

(06-27-2015, 03:22 PM)bfine32 Wrote: It is his opening statement.



"Perhaps recognizing that these cases do not actually involve liberty as it has been understood, the majority goes to great lengths to assert that its decision will advance the “dignity” of same-sex couples. "

Except the case is not about "liberty" or "dignity".  It is about equal protection under the law.

[fredtoast]

(06-27-2015, 03:22 PM)bfine32 Wrote: ...but you got me. There's a chance I spelled a word incorrectly.

I wasn't talking about spelling.  I was pointing out that Thomas made a direct correlation between "dignity" and the unalienable listed by our founding fathers.  

Butu for some funny reason he failed to mention that these founding fathers claimed "liberty" was an unalienable right at the same time they accepted slavery.

Basically he is using the funding fathers to support his claim that dignity is endowed by the creator but refusing to acknowledge that the founding fathers were full of shit when they made that claim.

If liberty is endowed by god then why did it take the Federal government to give slaves their liberty?

His whooe line of reasoning is a joke.

[fredtoast]

(06-27-2015, 03:17 PM)bfine32 Wrote:  Yes I think having dignity is a good thing. I just don't think someone has to give it to you.  

Who gave the slaves their "liberty"?  God or the Federal Government?

The whole claim about being endowed by god with these rights is a joke.  And trying to use that line of BS to claim that slavery was "dignified" is just as stupid.

[fredtoast]

(06-27-2015, 02:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yet some will assert that Thomas had a "leg up" because his Grandfather ran a gas station in the Jim Crow South and because of his success this somehow makes him an Uncle Tom

Maybe the fact that he went to a private all-white high school?

Thoma actually tried to argue that the Topeka v Board of Education was wrong because the black schools were just as good as the white school in the Jim Crow south.

I wonder why his grandfather would send him to an all-white private school if the all-black schools were just as good?

[*bfine32*]

All these responses (counter-questions) and still no answer to the 2 questions asked:


Who gave you your dignity?


Where did Thomas say Slavery was not that bad?


But I have grown tired of debating with someone that cannot give the black man enough credit to even think that they could maintain a sense of dignity while facing hardship.

[fredtoast]

(06-27-2015, 03:54 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Where did Thomas say Slavery was not that bad?

I have explained it to you about 5 times.

Somehow you think it is impossible for a person to express an idea in different terms.  He expressed the idea without useing the exact words.  Sorry that you can not comprehend the simple concept that the same idea can be expressed in different words.

Dignity is a good thing......Slavery did not take away dignity......Since slavery did not take away all good things then it was not all bad.

[fredtoast]

(06-27-2015, 03:54 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Who gave you your dignity?

"I am not going to dignify that question with an answer."





Now get out your dictionary and learn why the above sentence is correct.  Stop acting like it is impossible for anyone other than god to give something dignity.  It makes you sound as stupid as the founding fathers who claimed that all men were endowed by god with the right to "liberty" at the same time they accepted slavery.

[*bfine32*]

(06-27-2015, 04:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I have explained it to you about 5 times.

Somehow you think it is impossible for a person to express an idea in different terms.  He expressed the idea without useing the exact words.  Sorry that you can not comprehend the simple concept that the same idea can be expressed in different words.

Dignity is a good thing......Slavery did not take away dignity......Since slavery did not take away all good things then it was not all bad.

..as I assumed

bfine32 Wrote:Still didn't answer the questions asked. Who gave you your dignity and where did Thomas say "Slavery wasn't that bad"? He simply gave credit to the Slaves and not the institution of Slavery. Although if you can't grasp the difference between having dignity and being treated with dignity; I doubt you'll grasp that concept.

We are almost there: Who gave you your dignity?

[WhoDeyWho]

(06-27-2015, 02:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Thomas may very well have been forced to drop out of school and work to support the family if he had not been taken in by a well-to-do relative.  Or he may have been forced to attend a "black" high school that did not have the resources to allow him to take full advantage of his academic abilities.

I am not saying Thomas didn't work hard.  But the fact is that he had advantages that many others in his position did not posses.  He was given a place to live and got the chance to attend a white high school.

A man with his brains and work ethic probably would not have ended up in poverty, but there is a good chance he would not have gone to Yale and become a Supreme Court Justice.

There is a good chance that the overwhelming majority of Americans won't go to Yale or become a Supreme Court Justice regardless of how much money they come from.  

[fredtoast]

(06-27-2015, 04:16 PM)bfine32 Wrote: ..as I assumed

We are almost there: Who gave you your dignity?

(06-27-2015, 04:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: "I am not going to dignify that question with an answer."





Now get out your dictionary and learn why the above sentence is correct.  Stop acting like it is impossible for anyone other than god to give something dignity.  It makes you sound as stupid as the founding fathers who claimed that all men were endowed by god with the right to "liberty" at the same time they accepted slavery.

[*bfine32*]

(06-27-2015, 03:17 PM)Fredtoast Wrote: Get out a dictionairy

dig·ni·ty

ˈdiɡnədē/
noun

1. the state or quality of being worthy of honor or respect.
   "a man of dignity and unbending principle"
   
   • a composed or serious manner or style.
     "he bowed with great dignity"
     synonyms:
     stateliness, nobility, majesty, regality, courtliness, augustness,loftiness, lordliness, grandeur; More
     [/url][url=https://www.google.com/search?espv=2&biw=1366&bih=628&site=webhp&q=define+gravity&sa=X&ei=FP2OVcbDD4uzggSHuZOACA&ved=0CCUQ_SowAA][/url][url=https://www.google.com/search?espv=2&biw=1366&bih=628&site=webhp&q=define+formality&sa=X&ei=FP2OVcbDD4uzggSHuZOACA&ved=0CCcQ_SowAA][/url][url=https://www.google.com/search?espv=2&biw=1366&bih=628&site=webhp&q=define+propriety&sa=X&ei=FP2OVcbDD4uzggSHuZOACA&ved=0CCkQ_SowAA]
     
     
   • a sense of pride in oneself; self-respect.
     "it was beneath his dignity to shout"
     synonyms:
     self-respect, pride, self-esteem, self-worth
     "he had lost his dignity"
     

I do appreciate the insight to the reasoning behind those that consider Thomas to be an Uncle Tom.

Thomas states the it is possible for a Slave to maintain dignity, so in this line of reasoning that equals him stating that "Slavery is not that bad."

Now I understand their twisted line of reasoning a little more, so I can laugh a little harder.

[fredtoast]

(06-27-2015, 04:16 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: There is a good chance that the overwhelming majority of Americans won't go to Yale or become a Supreme Court Justice regardless of how much money they come from.  

So you don't think Thomas received any advantage from having his grandfather take him in out of abject poverty and send him to a private all-white high school?

You do realize it is possible to give a guy credit for working hard, but at the same time admit that he had privileges that other did not.  I hope someday to give my daughters' advantages that other people don't have.  There is nothing wrong with that.  But I don't want my daughters to grow up and claim that everyone has equal opportunity in this country.

[fredtoast]

(06-27-2015, 04:45 PM)bfine32 Wrote: dig·ni·ty

ˈdiɡnədē/
noun

1. the state or quality of being worthy of honor or respect.
   "a man of dignity and unbending principle"
   
   • a composed or serious manner or style.
     "he bowed with great dignity"
     synonyms:
     stateliness, nobility, majesty, regality, courtliness, augustness,loftiness, lordliness, grandeur; More
     [/url][url=https://www.google.com/search?espv=2&biw=1366&bih=628&site=webhp&q=define+gravity&sa=X&ei=FP2OVcbDD4uzggSHuZOACA&ved=0CCUQ_SowAA][/url][url=https://www.google.com/search?espv=2&biw=1366&bih=628&site=webhp&q=define+formality&sa=X&ei=FP2OVcbDD4uzggSHuZOACA&ved=0CCcQ_SowAA][/url][url=https://www.google.com/search?espv=2&biw=1366&bih=628&site=webhp&q=define+propriety&sa=X&ei=FP2OVcbDD4uzggSHuZOACA&ved=0CCkQ_SowAA]
     
     
   • a sense of pride in oneself; self-respect.
     "it was beneath his dignity to shout"
     synonyms:
     self-respect, pride, self-esteem, self-worth
     "he had lost his dignity"
     

I do appreciate the insight to the reasoning behind those that consider Thomas to be an Uncle Tom.

Thomas states the it is possible for a Slave to maintain dignity, so in this line of reasoning that equals him stating that "Slavery is not that bad."

Now I undersstand their twist line of reasoning a little more, so I can laugh a little harder.

We're almost there





dignify


 verb dig·ni·fy \ˈdig-nə-ˌfī\
: to cause (something) to have more serious and important quality : to give dignity or importance to (something)









Waits for Bfine to claim that the word "dignify" can only be applied to God

[*bfine32*]

(06-27-2015, 04:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: We're almost there





dignify


 verb dig·ni·fy \ˈdig-nə-ˌfī\
: to cause (something) to have more serious and important quality : to give dignity or importance to (something)

Where did Thomas use the word dignify or suggest Slaves were dignified by their owners?

[*michaelsean*]

(06-27-2015, 11:12 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Are you kidding.

Dignity means being worthy of respect.

How the hell can you tell a person held in slavery that he has dignity when he is being treated like an animal?  Those are generally the words of white apologists.  "Yeah, we may have treated them like animals, but they still had there dignity.  It wasn't that bad."

Plus this case isn't about dignity.  It is about equal protection under the law.

I guess you don't get dignity. Dignity is from within, and you can be worthy of respect whether you are given it or not. Dignity is being treated like an animal, but not act like one. Dignity is not determined by others.

[fredtoast]

(06-27-2015, 04:53 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Where did Thomas use the word dignify or suggest Slaves were dignified by their owners?

He didn't.  He claimed that diginity could only come from god.  Just like liberty.  Because, you know, the founding fathers said it was so.


The majority opinion talked about giving dignity to same sex marriage.  Thomas claimed that was impossible because only god could give dignity.  And that argument is just stupid.  Dignity can be bestowed upon people and institutions by all sorts ways other than just coming from god.  he tried to support his silly argument by  quoting the founding fathers.  but that was stupid also because the founding fathers claimed that liberty came from god at the same time that they accepted slavery.